The farcical state of renting in Dublin

murphaph

It's not crazy from the LL's perspective to ask for €2.4k (crazy money for a 2 bed apartment IMO but anyway) if some muggins is prepared to pay it. The crazy one is the guy who say "ok".

Arbiter of Good Taste

yoginindublin wrote: »

I just wanted to share my experience. This year in January, my landlord had told me that there will be an increase of €150 in my rent, making that €1850. I had agreed to it as it was their first time to make an increase in the 3 years I have been living here. I also informed her that in April, I am moving out as I have bought my own place. I told her my husband has a few colleagues interested in moving in and if I could show it to them and she said ok. The guys came over and said that they would like to move in and I gave them the agent of my landlady. The agent calls me and tells me that they want to show the unit to more people as the landlady wants now a rent of €2400! That's quite and increase! Most apartments where I am are going for 1800-1900. The ones over 2k would be 3 bedroom ones. I just think its crazy to increase rent. I don't think its good for the economy as the money goes to rent and not to spend for other things that will help the economy!

Seems a huge increase, but if someone is willing to pay for it, so be it.

With regard to the money going to "rent" as opposed to "other things", it's being transferred to the landlord who presumably will spend it somewhere. It's not disappearing anywhere.

jane82

Does the apartment come with a butler?
You cant be willing to pay that money and yet complain its being charged.
Plenty of places were gping for 1000. What exactly were you getting for 800 extra a month?

Potatoeman

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Seems a huge increase, but if someone is willing to pay for it, so be it.

With regard to the money going to "rent" as opposed to "other things", it's being transferred to the landlord who presumably will spend it somewhere. It's not disappearing anywhere.

Yes but if it reduces disposable income for tenants and then transfers to a sinking fund it will impact the economy negativley. It would depend where the majority of this income goes.

SBWife

Potatoeman wrote: »

Yes but if it reduces disposable income for tenants and then transfers to a sinking fund it will impact the economy negativley. It would depend where the majority of this income goes.

A portion goes to the government - which uses it to fund services and transfer payments hence not increasing the budget deficit any further. Good for the economy.

A portion goes to pay off the mortgage - improving the balance sheet position of the lending institution and putting them in a position to be able to lend more to SMEs and Individuals. Good for the economy.

A portion is spent by the landlord - there's no difference as to whether this money is spent by the tenants or the landlord. Neutral for the economy.

A portion is invested by the landlord - provides funds for business and allows them to grow. Good for the economy.

Unless the increase in rent makes the prospective tenant quit their job and return to live at home on the scratcher it's very hard to see how a market rent albeit higher than the previous level should necessarily be bad for the economy.

The_Conductor

Jaybor wrote: »

There are for sure a lot of vacant properties in Dublin.

But who would want to live in them.

Take your pick. Plenty of Dublin ones here.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=dublin+boarded+up+property&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=wfwxU6KzNPLA7AbDjIDIAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ

Jaybor- there are buildings there that were demolished over 30 years ago- including promotional shots from the Georgian Preservation Society. There are also pictures of 2 burnt out chippers, and one office block that was vacated because of an asbestos issue. You might like to tighten down your search criteria- so it actually returns something meaningful.

The_Conductor

Potatoeman wrote: »

It would depend where the majority of this income goes.

The lions share goes to the government in taxes of one form or another- and it would be surprising if a significant portion of the remainder didn't go to our zombie banks.

Xenji

Had a friend of mine down from Dublin last week and it was the first time he saw my new apartment, it is nearly identical to his in Dublin size wise and quality, except for the fact being I just pay €400 a month in Castlebar and he is paying €1200 a month in Dublin. I was offered a redeployment before in Dublin and even with a raise I would have been losing money if I took it when I added accommodation into account, I understand why it is so high, but it must be quite tough on some people just starting out and having to move to Dublin.

The_Conductor

Xenji wrote: »

Had a friend of mine down from Dublin last week and it was the first time he saw my new apartment, it is nearly identical to his in Dublin size wise and quality, except for the fact being I just pay €400 a month in Castlebar and he is paying €1200 a month in Dublin. I was offered a redeployment before in Dublin and even with a raise I would have been losing money if I took it when I added accommodation into account, I understand why it is so high, but it must be quite tough on some people just starting out and having to move to Dublin.

Are you suggesting that people who have to work in Dublin should have a weighting associated with their salary to reflect the massively higher cost of living in Dublin- over and above any costs associated with elsewhere in the country? Accommodation is one factor- childcare and other sundry costs are even more stark. If one was to accept that there were higher costs associated with working in Dublin- would the people who don't work in Dublin be willing to accept that their colleagues in Dublin earned more than them for doing broadly similar roles. Further- would the public accept a premium for Dublin employees- and would it apply across all sectors, both private and public sector?

In the UK there is a London weighting on a significant majority of fulltime jobs (and a consequent reduction in salary esp. in the public sector for those who work in areas with a perceived lower cost of living). Despite this- there are large areas in which people, professional people, simply can't afford to live any longer. Architects, staff doctors, police officers, teachers, even junior bankers- can't afford to live there- and thats with a positive weighting.

People want to live in Dublin- its the economic powerhouse of the country. That said- it also has almost 70% of the unemployed population of the country. Unless, or rather, until, significant areas elsewhere in the country develop in a fashion suitable to attract sustainable and varied economic development, this isn't going to change. We tried to address this with the national spatial strategy- however, every county council around the country works like a feifdom and thumbed their noses at Dublin thinking they knew best. It really is parochial politics 101 outside the Pale.

Xenji

The_Conductor wrote: »

Are you suggesting that people who have to work in Dublin should have a weighting associated with their salary to reflect the massively higher cost of living in Dublin- over and above any costs associated with elsewhere in the country? Accommodation is one factor- childcare and other sundry costs are even more stark. If one was to accept that there were higher costs associated with working in Dublin- would the people who don't work in Dublin be willing to accept that their colleagues in Dublin earned more than them for doing broadly similar roles. Further- would the public accept a premium for Dublin employees- and would it apply across all sectors, both private and public sector?

In the UK there is a London weighting on a significant majority of fulltime jobs (and a consequent reduction in salary esp. in the public sector for those who work in areas with a perceived lower cost of living). Despite this- there are large areas in which people, professional people, simply can't afford to live any longer. Architects, staff doctors, police officers, teachers, even junior bankers- can't afford to live there- and thats with a positive weighting.

People want to live in Dublin- its the economic powerhouse of the country. That said- it also has almost 70% of the unemployed population of the country. Unless, or rather, until, significant areas elsewhere in the country develop in a fashion suitable to attract sustainable and varied economic development, this isn't going to change. We tried to address this with the national spatial strategy- however, every county council around the country works like a feifdom and thumbed their noses at Dublin thinking they knew best. It really is parochial politics 101 outside the Pale.

Not at all, I just have quite a few friends who moved to Dublin after they graduated and found it tough due to rental prices when they were starting out, it was a struggle at the time for them and some still are struggling, but they are happy to have employment. In my case I already had a job and when I weighed up everything financially it made more sense staying where I was, but friends of mine had to move to Dublin to find employment as they could not secure jobs anywhere else.

The_Conductor

Xenji wrote: »

Not at all, I just have quite a few friends who moved to Dublin after they graduated and found it tough due to rental prices when they were starting out, it was a struggle at the time for them and some still are struggling, but they are happy to have employment. In my case I already had a job and when I weighed up everything financially it made more sense staying where I was, but friends of mine had to move to Dublin to find employment as they could not secure jobs anywhere else.

Its not just after graduating though- picture the same graduates a few years down the road where they have settled down and where both work. Along come a few children- and all of a sudden they are paying north of 2k a month on childcare. Childcare in anywhere other than the Dublin region is under 1/3 what it costs in Dublin. Or picture a pensioner who has just had their hip replaced and needs a little convalescence care after surgery. Convalescence care in Dublin, on average, costs almost 5 times (yes, 5 times) what the average costs are in Mayo (the geography Department of NUIM have some lovely spatial maps with this sort of information on them).

Renting as a new graduate is only one step on life's journey- but each step is a significantly more expensive step for those in the Dublin area.........

Claw Hammer

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not just after graduating though- picture the same graduates a few years down the road where they have settled down and where both work. Along come a few children- and all of a sudden they are paying north of 2k a month on childcare. Childcare in anywhere other than the Dublin region is under 1/3 what it costs in Dublin. Or picture a pensioner who has just had their hip replaced and needs a little convalescence care after surgery. Convalescence care in Dublin, on average, costs almost 5 times (yes, 5 times) what the average costs are in Mayo (the geography Department of NUIM have some lovely spatial maps with this sort of information on them).

Renting as a new graduate is only one step on life's journey- but each step is a significantly more expensive step for those in the Dublin area.........

Not everything is more expensive. When the couple have university age children there will be a major saving in rent and accommodation costs. There is also more scope for finding bargains in Dublin. Try buying clothes down the country!

Idbatterim

get a decent integrated transport system together, that allows for high density where there is still development potential, possibly fast track major developments through the planning process. Provide a financial incentive for builders to build again asap or if they cant due to a lack of finance etc, make a fund available for this, which can only be drawn down in dublin county or city, subject to certain criteria. Build family friendly apartments, where people can stay comfortably if they cant or dont want to move...

Citroen2cv

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Not everything is more expensive. When the couple have university age children there will be a major saving in rent and accommodation costs. There is also more scope for finding bargains in Dublin. Try buying clothes down the country!

Clothes-that is the last thing I would be worried about.

Dr_Colossus

The_Conductor wrote: »

People want to live in Dublin- its the economic powerhouse of the country. That said- it also has almost 70% of the unemployed population of the country. Unless, or rather, until, significant areas elsewhere in the country develop in a fashion suitable to attract sustainable and varied economic development, this isn't going to change. We tried to address this with the national spatial strategy- however, every county council around the country works like a feifdom and thumbed their noses at Dublin thinking they knew best. It really is parochial politics 101 outside the Pale.

One suggestion could be to lower the rent allowances in Dublin effectively moving those benefiting from the state aid into the local towns around the country. It would reduce demand and thus cost for rented accommodation in Dublin which is again spiraling out of control and at the same time reduce the amount of vacant properties elsewhere. There is too much of a disparity between the costs of living in Dublin and elsewhere and wages are not weighted accordingly forcing workers to commute long distances reducing quality of life.

Ray Palmer

The_Conductor wrote: »

Are you suggesting that people who have to work in Dublin should have a weighting associated with their salary to reflect the massively higher cost of living in Dublin- over and above any costs associated with elsewhere in the country?

This should happen and does to a certain extent. Wages are higher in Dublin for comparable jobs in other locations in the country. Some private companies do pay more in Dublin for the same roles they have elsewhere.

The public sector did this in the past also. I believe they should bring it back too. In many roles in Dublin the staff have much heavier work loads so it isn't just about higher living expenses.

One of the many failures of the benchmarking system that was brought in.

Many people go on about the inequity of services in Dublin compared to the rest of the country. What is often overlooked is the burden of people living in Dublin face. We pay a property tax that is funnelled out to other areas. We deal with traffic from out lying areas that are being subsidised by the same property tax.

Sporting event, concerts, parades, festivals etc.. While great to have available options many of these events are for people outside of Dublin I certainly doubt Garth Brooks is playing so many nights for the benefit of the Dublin community. There are financial gains but there are massive disruptions on people who don't make any money from this.

Dublin prices are higher simply because there are higher wages and more employment about. So there is a reason not to increase wages for civil servants as it would probably push up prices given how many civil servants work in the capital. De-centralisation failed and has quietly been ignored. One of the biggest scams pulled off by that government. I believe it was part of a move to reintroduce weighted salaries for Dublin civil servants from what I understand was going on in the background.

Looking at Croke park is a very good example of disregard for the people of Dublin. They are failing to stick to an agreement and money they make will be distributed around the country. You could have written down what is happening now when the initial proposals to expand was first put out there. Should never been allowed to expand. Should have been placed near the airport and increased links to benefit everybody and cause less disruption

Claw Hammer

Citroen2cv wrote: »

Clothes-that is the last thing I would be worried about.

Even if you don't worry about them, you still have to buy them

Xenji

Clothes shops would never be a plus for me, nearly buy everything online.

grdaHopeful

It's great for property owners. Lots of very aspirational people aged 25 to 40 with degrees coming out every orifice (born around the time of JPII's visit).

We have a demographic diamond, not a pyramid.

Those in the demographic bulge are good consumers -- they tend to spend all their money to give off the impression they have money (D2/D4/D6 address, fancy i phones, designer clothes, €100 nights out on Leeson Street, etc.).

Make hay while the sun shines I say.

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This should happen and does to a certain extent. Wages are higher in Dublin for comparable jobs in other locations in the country. Some private companies do pay more in Dublin for the same roles they have elsewhere.

Anecdotally- many multinationals have to pay a premium for staff in 'decentralised' locations- as the pool of potential candidates applying for positions of places like Clonakilty is vastly smaller than commensurate operations in the greater Dublin region. Its all to do with supply and demand- perverse logic applies though- Dublin based roles in some sectors are in fact worse paid.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The public sector did this in the past also. I believe they should bring it back too. In many roles in Dublin the staff have much heavier work loads so it isn't just about higher living expenses.

One of the many failures of the benchmarking system that was brought in.

When you look at roles such as teachers, doctors, nurses, Gardai etc- people who 'have' to work in a particular location- as opposed to posts which can be moved somewhere else- perhaps this is true. I'm not aware of there being a Dublin weighting (other than the allowance systems- which have fallen into disrepute).

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Many people go on about the inequity of services in Dublin compared to the rest of the country. What is often overlooked is the burden of people living in Dublin face. We pay a property tax that is funnelled out to other areas. We deal with traffic from out lying areas that are being subsidised by the same property tax.

Dublin, and its immediate hinterland- does subsidise the rest of the country. Anyone who disputes this is in cloud cuckoo land. Dublin is out only city of any comparative size- and we are a small and very open economy. The rest of the country may bitch and moan about the Jackeens- but its a simple fact- its someone living in Dublin who is paying for public services in Connemara (insert any rural location of your choice here).

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Sporting event, concerts, parades, festivals etc.. While great to have available options many of these events are for people outside of Dublin I certainly doubt Garth Brooks is playing so many nights for the benefit of the Dublin community. There are financial gains but there are massive disruptions on people who don't make any money from this.

To be honest with you- I think Garth Brooks is some sort of weird anamoly. I'm guessing more tickets were bought abroad than in Ireland- given the internet sales. It would seem that there is an international cohort who block book tickets for events like this- look at Kate Bushes 22 concert dates in London- for someone who last played in 1979- it just doesn't add up. Ticket touts and scalpers- have to be the predominant purchasers of tickets. I hope they burn in hell, the lot of them.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Dublin prices are higher simply because there are higher wages and more employment about. So there is a reason not to increase wages for civil servants as it would probably push up prices given how many civil servants work in the capital. De-centralisation failed and has quietly been ignored. One of the biggest scams pulled off by that government. I believe it was part of a move to reintroduce weighted salaries for Dublin civil servants from what I understand was going on in the background.

Dublin prices are higher- because of lack of supply. Leitrim Co. Co. had the policy- built them and they will come (reminds me of a film about a baseball arena in the US being built in the middle of nowhere). Look at Carrick-on-Shannon- its now selling itself as the ultimate venue for Hen and Stag parties. I don't envy them one bit- and I hope financially it works out for them- but as an industry for a town- its appalling.

Weighted salaries for Dublin civil servants? Certain sectors of the public service may have had premium pay rates (the Gardai for example)- I don't think it ever applied in the civil service though. I also don't think it'll ever happen.

Just had a quick gander at the CSO and some of the union websites- 29,000 civil servants, of whom fewer than 7,000 are in Dublin. Seems like we have a massively decentralised civil service? The AHCS do note that decentralisations have been happening since the 1970s- from which I infer that the decentralisation scheme which we now think of was nothing but a cynical exercise in political shenanigans- nothing more, nothing less.

The biggest casualty of the boom- seems to have been our national spatial strategy- whereby we were to develop a limited number of gateway towns and city and pour resources into them to allow regions to develop in a natural manner. Instead- as usual- parochial politics were allowed to the fore- and free-for-all development happened willy-nilly, destroying a once in a lifetime opportunity to develop Ireland as a country. Parochial politics has ruined Ireland- and continues to do so. People are not willing to look at what is good for Ireland as a whole- its all what bacon can we get our man in Leinster House to bring home to Westport (or whatever). The white elephants we have littered around the country are many and varied- one of the few benefits of our financially straightened times- is we are less likely to give in to the shrill demands of gombeen politicians, than we were, such a short time ago- but hey, the damage is done.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Looking at Croke park is a very good example of disregard for the people of Dublin. They are failing to stick to an agreement and money they make will be distributed around the country. You could have written down what is happening now when the initial proposals to expand was first put out there. Should never been allowed to expand. Should have been placed near the airport and increased links to benefit everybody and cause less disruption

Big time. It really doesn't make any sense- other than to stroke the GAA's ego. We're shutting down a significant portion of the North inner city any time there is an event held there- inconveniencing thousands of residents and businesses- at the alter of the GAA. It makes no sense whatsoever.

The_Conductor

Xenji wrote: »

Clothes shops would never be a plus for me, nearly buy everything online.

You may get a few clothes bargains in Dublin- in the same manner you may get a few food bargains down the country. Its very hit and miss. Most sane people try things on in shops- and then go home, hop on the internet and buy online. One definite advantage Dublin has- is a better proliferation of broadband (solely through its higher population density)- but even the most remote of areas can now access satellite broadband at a reasonable price (if not mobile phone services- which in themselves can be hit and miss even in Dublin- have a stroll around Smithfield some day- and see whether you have reception on your phone- I was most surprised). As for TV- places like west Dublin- often have trouble even getting RTE our national broadcaster- and are told by RTE that external antenna are needed to get signals from Kippure.

The benefits of living in Dublin- can easily be over-estimated by people- even very basic things that you think must be there- often, are not.

gaius c

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Not everything is more expensive. When the couple have university age children there will be a major saving in rent and accommodation costs. There is also more scope for finding bargains in Dublin. Try buying clothes down the country!

Terrible shame that there isn't a single university in the country outside Dublin...

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You do get that is a very inaccurate article with lots of hearsay.

Vacancy rate in Dublin is normally 10% as I recall and during the boom it rose to 16%. People went mental about saying it should be about 2% but then it turned out it is normally 10%. When it dips below that you know there is a shortage of housing

Good job you responded to that article which cited CSO figures with a detailed rebuttal of your own, complete with citations.
I suppose your next step will be to instruct me to find the supporting evidence for your post, like you did before?

Ann Landers

I'm noticing now that in Dublin when you're arranging a viewing, you're given a time and that's that. Like it or lump it.

Fkall

Ann Landers wrote: »

I'm noticing now that in Dublin when you're arranging a viewing, you're given a time and that's that. Like it or lump it.

That is a reality of the current market where rentals are let on the first viewing with multiple tenants offering the EA a choice to pick from.

Many tenants bring references and booking deposits to viewings just in case the EA picks them.

hfallada

Ann Landers wrote: »

I'm noticing now that in Dublin when you're arranging a viewing, you're given a time and that's that. Like it or lump it.

About time. My parents landlords and potential tenants often have this you should be grateful to show me your house attitude. They often arrive up to an hour late as they lost track of time. And when they finally arrive they don't like how far it from a certain location.

OldNotWIse

hfallada wrote: »

About time. My parents landlords and potential tenants often have this you should be grateful to show me your house attitude. They often arrive up to an hour late as they lost track of time. And when they finally arrive they don't like how far it from a certain location.

In your head maybe.

Au contraire, it is usually LL's who have the "I am letting you live here free you know" attitude.

Citroen2cv

The_Conductor wrote: »

Dublin, and its immediate hinterland- does subsidise the rest of the country. Anyone who disputes this is in cloud cuckoo land. Dublin is out only city of any comparative size- and we are a small and very open economy. The rest of the country may bitch and moan about the Jackeens- but its a simple fact- its someone living in Dublin who is paying for public services in Connemara (insert any rural location of your choice here).
.

Maybe a little off topic to renting in dublin, but many other cities and towns have large private Industry and relative to their size contribute the same as dublin does. Dubliner's are not the only ones who pay taxes. Galway city with its large biomedical, tourism and IT industries surely is capable of paying for public services in rural connemara for example.

borderlinemeath

OldNotWIse wrote: »

In your head maybe.

Au contraire, it is usually LL's who have the "I am letting you live here free you know" attitude.

My OH is a professional landlord and he certainly does not have that attitude. He lets his properties at the current market rate, sometimes slightly below it to make it easy for himself. He has 2 leases coming up that he would rather one tenant stays and the other goes (based on their consistent late payments) but he's not going to be hiking the rent by much. But the one thing he is grateful for is the demand, previously he had to drive to his properties (which took the guts of an hour) for people who had pre-arranged viewings, only for maybe nobody showing up.

So imagine you're trying to let your property, you organise the afternoon/evening/whenever suits the prospective tenant, waste the fuel on getting there and back and they don't show up? Or maybe show up late, and be unenthusiastic, or try and haggle, or disclose then that they were actually looking for a 2 bed instead of a 3 bed and aren't prepared to pay that much? It can be frustrating, stressful and an absolute waste of time but the majority of tenants didn't give a damn because they mostly have the same opinion about all landlords, ie "they must be making a fortune, I pay them enough rent".

Potatoeman

hfallada wrote: »

About time. My parents landlords and potential tenants often have this you should be grateful to show me your house attitude. They often arrive up to an hour late as they lost track of time. And when they finally arrive they don't like how far it from a certain location.

I presume you mean your parent landlords and not your parents landlords?

From my experience letting agents turn up late. Landlords are hit and miss. People should turn up on time but if the property is on a route with poor public transport then its better to find before you commit to living there. Some of the travel times on listings are absolute nonsense too.

You are selling a service so it is in your benefit to sell it to the best of your ability. They are your customers.

OldNotWIse

borderlinemeath wrote: »

My OH is a professional landlord and he certainly does not have that attitude. He lets his properties at the current market rate, sometimes slightly below it to make it easy for himself. He has 2 leases coming up that he would rather one tenant stays and the other goes (based on their consistent late payments) but he's not going to be hiking the rent by much. But the one thing he is grateful for is the demand, previously he had to drive to his properties (which took the guts of an hour) for people who had pre-arranged viewings, only for maybe nobody showing up.

So imagine you're trying to let your property, you organise the afternoon/evening/whenever suits the prospective tenant, waste the fuel on getting there and back and they don't show up? Or maybe show up late, and be unenthusiastic, or try and haggle, or disclose then that they were actually looking for a 2 bed instead of a 3 bed and aren't prepared to pay that much? It can be frustrating, stressful and an absolute waste of time but the majority of tenants didn't give a damn because they mostly have the same opinion about all landlords, ie "they must be making a fortune, I pay them enough rent".

Hapy to hear it.