The farcical state of renting in Dublin

Dyr

Bepolite wrote: »

The govenerment can't intervene on the private rental market, it simply wouldn't survive a Constitutional challenge. Socieconomic rights are trumped (they're just in there for the craic anyway!) by the double protection of private property.

We need to start building again and start releasing some of the NAMA owned property.

Presumably a lot of rentals are deep in mortgage debt, give the landlords a choice, pay up the outstanding in full or the bank repossess and the goverment gets control of the property to rent out

we can but dream

dinnyirwin

Normally for in place tenants I dont increase the rent unless they ask me to spend money or time on doing up the place, replacing furniture, callouts etc.
Once I have to spend money I have to pass it on in the rent, so when i dont have to I am happy to let the rent roll for yeara without increase.
But this year I have decided that I have to pass on all the extra taxes and charges that i've had to absorb. Even for the 8 or so tenants who I consider to be long term and who have been good tenants who havent required much time or money from me will have to take increases in their rent. Not only the yearly extra expenses, but i also have to make up for the last 6 years or so when i couldnt/didnt pass it on.
Its a pity that it has to be this way, but thats the situation that we've all been put in by property taxes, reduction in mortgage interest allowable to 75%, usc on rental income, prtb, bin charges. levies etc (and interest rates when they start to rise). Eventually it has to be passed on to the consumer. Thats just how a business works. If they cant be passed on you go out if business.

There are a lot of landlords who had to absorb these costs and were making a loss. The landscape in Dublin has changed such that now they are at a pint that they can recover these costs. And a lot of them will be adding in an extra premium so that they can front load the next attack on their business from the govt too. They must do this now while the market allows, since they couldnt a few years ago and suffered losses.

I remember reading posts from people reveling in the misery of landlords and extra pressure on their income a few years ago and thinking "be careful what you wish for". Those people didnt seem to realise that it was exactly the same situation as fuel going up for an airline. They might keep fares low while their market is strained but in the end they must increase fares and increase them enough to recover previous loses as well as current and future profits.

So whenever you see a new charge or tax on landlords, wonder who is really going to pay that in the long run. Its the governments lack of forward thinking, as usual that has caused the increases in rents in Dublin.

dinnyirwin

Bambi wrote: »

Presumably a lot of rentals are deep in mortgage debt, give the landlords a choice, pay up the outstanding in full or the bank repossess and the goverment gets control of the property to rent out

we can but dream

Well the higher rents go, the more sense it makes to repossess a BTL that is underwater, so on the one hand it could make banks repossessing the properties viable. On the other hand if the property starts making a profit, its easier to reschedule the mortgage to pay off the arrears over time.

I would think that most rentals in Dublin are starting to go back into profit/ break even territory. Maybe not the BTLs bough in the last couple of years before the crash, but they are on the way too.

cookie1977

To be honest I wished the government had put the property tax liability on renters too. They live in the area it services so they should be liable. And as has been said even if they're not the landlord will look at adding the cost to the rents anyway.

murphaph

cookie1977 wrote: »

To be honest I wished the government had put the property tax liability on renters too. They live in the area it services so they should be liable. And as has been said even if they're not the landlord will look at adding the cost to the rents anyway.

In fact by taxing the landlord it ends up that tenants pay more than if they'd been taxed directly because the rent increase is gross before tax. In Germany there's a list of things a landlord can pass on directly to his tenant, including property tax.

The_Conductor

cookie1977 wrote: »

To be honest I wished the government had put the property tax liability on renters too. They live in the area it services so they should be liable. And as has been said even if they're not the landlord will look at adding the cost to the rents anyway.

If your local property tax was actually spent on services locally- it might be a valid argument- however, and keeping in mind this thread specifically mentions the farcical nature of renting in Dublin- for every Euro of property tax paid in Dublin- its far more likely to be spent on potholes in Cavan, than it is in the greater Dublin area.

The local property tax is a subvention from Dublin property owners- to owners and by extension dwellers, of accommodation elsewhere in the country.

It is a Dublin based tax- anyone living within 20 miles of O'Connell Street Bridge- will on average pay 4 times more property tax than anyone living elsewhere in the country.

The_Conductor

murphaph wrote: »

In fact by taxing the landlord it ends up that tenants pay more than if they'd been taxed directly because the rent increase is gross before tax. In Germany there's a list of things a landlord can pass on directly to his tenant, including property tax.

The same in the UK- Council tax is paid by the resident of a property- not the owner. The way its structured in Ireland was to make collection easier (according to statements at the time)- it was feared it would be impossible to collect otherwise.

The_Conductor

Bepolite wrote: »

We need to start building again and start releasing some of the NAMA owned property.

The issue is predominantly a shortage of supply in the Dublin area especially.
Unfortunately NAMA have sweet damn all residential property in the Dublin area (they do have a significant number of office sites and commercial property though- according to their annual report).

What needs to happen is a fundamental mind shift- we need high density housing units in the Dublin area- it is not a reasonable aspiration for everyone to live in the semi-d with a front and back garden- we simply don't have anywhere to build the damn things.

Ideally- a mixture of residential types should be built in any given area- and properly serviced by amenities suitable to the population demographics.

If we keep harping on about NAMA releasing residential units- you're going to end up with 10k apartments in Carrick-on-Shannon back on the market again- not 10k units in West Dublin- where people would happily buy or rent in the morning (which coincidentally is also where South Dublin in its infinite wisdom has decreed should have lower density housing than at present- in order to ensure ghost estates don't develop (they revised the planning for Adamstown last week- you couldn't make it up)...........

dinnyirwin

murphaph wrote: »

In fact by taxing the landlord it ends up that tenants pay more than if they'd been taxed directly because the rent increase is gross before tax. In Germany there's a list of things a landlord can pass on directly to his tenant, including property tax.

I think they were well aware of the increased take by putting it on the landlord.
I think it was even pointed out on primetime at the time. It was also pointed out that the tenant would be paying it in the end but this was largely ignored as rents were stressed at the time, which is a rare event, but was taken advantage of by the government.

They also made a move on the tax relief on rent. Basically a triple whammy on the tenant (no tax back on rent, tenant having to pay the propertys new taxes, and the tenant having to pay the LLs income tax on the increased taxes incl the USC on the rental income, ), but fooled tenants into thinking that it wasnt them who were going to have to pay in the end. I think everyone realizes now that the government only succeeded in screwing the end user again.

davyy77

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Normally for in place tenants I dont increase the rent unless they ask me to spend money or time on doing up the place, replacing furniture, callouts etc.
Once I have to spend money I have to pass it on in the rent, so when i dont have to I am happy to let the rent roll for yeara without increase.
But this year I have decided that I have to pass on all the extra taxes and charges that i've had to absorb. Even for the 8 or so tenants who I consider to be long term and who have been good tenants who havent required much time or money from me will have to take increases in their rent. Not only the yearly extra expenses, but i also have to make up for the last 6 years or so when i couldnt/didnt pass it on.
Its a pity that it has to be this way, but thats the situation that we've all been put in by property taxes, reduction in mortgage interest allowable to 75%, usc on rental income, prtb, bin charges. levies etc (and interest rates when they start to rise). Eventually it has to be passed on to the consumer. Thats just how a business works. If they cant be passed on you go out if business.

There are a lot of landlords who had to absorb these costs and were making a loss. The landscape in Dublin has changed such that now they are at a pint that they can recover these costs. And a lot of them will be adding in an extra premium so that they can front load the next attack on their business from the govt too. They must do this now while the market allows, since they couldnt a few years ago and suffered losses.

I remember reading posts from people reveling in the misery of landlords and extra pressure on their income a few years ago and thinking "be careful what you wish for". Those people didnt seem to realise that it was exactly the same situation as fuel going up for an airline. They might keep fares low while their market is strained but in the end they must increase fares and increase them enough to recover previous loses as well as current and future profits.

So whenever you see a new charge or tax on landlords, wonder who is really going to pay that in the long run. Its the governments lack of forward thinking, as usual that has caused the increases in rents in Dublin.

Get what you are saying and note your points but legally there is standard by right if something breaks down or needs replacment a tenant should be able to get these things fixed or replaced without having the rent increased or living In fear of contacting landlord because rent will go up!

When a lease is signed rent cant go up until that lease is renewed so does that mean u then pack on all the extra costs to tenant even though it's a right to have a certain standard,I know aswell people can be awful tenants but I am speaking of the good ones who take care of the property and might require things done!
And landlords should have to have a certain standard when letting properties.


My point is that some of the places that are for rent are in need of a major face lift and looking for extortionate prices!

As I mentioned in a earlier post an estate agent even mentioned the greed that is occurring in the market at the moment!

I think that if a place is advertised for a certain price is shouldn't be allowed go up!I get its a business I get all that other stuff I just don't think that's right.

cmssjone

davyy77 wrote: »

Get what you are saying and note your points but legally there is standard by right if something breaks down or needs replacment a tenant should be able to get these things fixed or replaced without having the rent increased or living In fear of contacting landlord because rent will go up!

When a lease is signed rent can go up until that lease is renewed so does that mean u then pack on all the extra costs to tenant even though it's a right to have a certain standard,I know aswell people can be awful tenants but I am speaking of the good ones who take care of the property and might require things done!
And landlords should have to have a certain standard when letting properties.


My point is that some of the places that are for rent are in need of a major face lift and looking for extortionate prices!

As I mentioned in a earlier post an estate agent even mentioned the greed that is occurring in the market at the moment!

I think that if a place is advertised for a certain price is shouldn't be allowed go up!I get its a business I get all that other stuff I just don't think that's right.

It's a price as an opening bid for negotiation. If set too low, people will bid what it is worth to them for the service. If set too high, people will offer lower. Just out of interest do you think this should be the same for buying/selling houses as well?

Pkiernan

Caps on rent??? FFS.

How about a cap on how long a tenant can not pay rent before being evicted?

I would support Rent Control if we could kick out tenants who don't pay the rent when they are 3 days late.
When I had a tenant who left owing 4 grand, I had no recourse, and I couldn't effectively kick him out. I had to grin an bear it for months and months until he left.
The left wing loonies say that it part of the risk I take because I rent out a property. Fair enough. I say to whinging tenants - go buy a house then if rents are too high. That is the price you pay for not owning a house.

dinnyirwin

davyy77 wrote: »

Get what you are saying and note your points but legally there is standard by right if something breaks down or needs replacment a tenant should be able to get these things fixed or replaced without having the rent increased or living In fear of contacting landlord because rent will go up!

When a lease is signed rent cant go up until that lease is renewed so does that mean u then pack on all the extra costs to tenant even though it's a right to have a certain standard,I know aswell people can be awful tenants but I am speaking of the good ones who take care of the property and might require things done!
And landlords should have to have a certain standard when letting properties.


My point is that some of the places that are for rent are in need of a major face lift and looking for extortionate prices!

As I mentioned in a earlier post an estate agent even mentioned the greed that is occurring in the market at the moment!

I think that if a place is advertised for a certain price is shouldn't be allowed go up!I get its a business I get all that other stuff I just don't think that's right.

The tenant gets a good standard when they rent.
Imagine they were there 4 years and the rent is €600 pm but rents went up market rate €1000pm for the last 3 years. Im happy because what they are paying is paying all of the costs involved and im not having to spend time or money on the property. I will leave the tenant on the €600 pm as im not triggered to do a review.
The tenant has saved €14400.

So if the place needed a lick of paint, a new mattress, new cutlery and crockery and a microwave.
If they were to live with the stains they put on the paint, and bought a new mattress and plates and cutlery themselves and a microwave themselves that would cost them about €300.

Now if after the first year they asked me to go and get someone to do theses things and the work thats involved around that. Im going to want to recover the cost. So, now im going to review that apartments finances and at the next opportunity im putting the rent up to market rate. I might do a few extra things to it while im at it increasing the value slightly above the existing market rate and will charge rent at that level from then on.

So the tenant has done themselves and me a favor by helping themselves and not involving me and saved themselves €14000. Im happy because my costs are covered and i basically can forget about the apartment due to a good tenant.

I am not being greedy when I put up the rent. I am charging the best price i can get for my service. If I charge too much I will not get it, so obviously it is the right price.

So its not a case of punishing them for coming to me. Its rewarding them for being self sufficient and knowing what will trigger me to review the rent. I am

And now into the mix you have the government triggering that review with landlords.

davyy77

Pkiernan wrote: »

Caps on rent??? FFS.

How about a cap on how long a tenant can not pay rent before being evicted?

I would support Rent Control if we could kick out tenants who don't pay the rent when they are 3 days late.I
When I had a tenant who left owing 4 grand, I had no recourse, and I couldn't effectively kick him out. I had to grin an bear it for months and months until he left.
The left wing loonies say that it part of the risk I take because I rent out a property. Fair enough. I say to whinging tenants - go buy a house then if rents are too high. That is the price you pay for not owning a house.

That's your own fault for letting it get that far!!

Not everyone Is in a position to buy and wants that financial burden, or make a decision about living in Dublin long term.

dinnyirwin

Pkiernan wrote: »

Caps on rent??? FFS.

How about a cap on how long a tenant can not pay rent before being evicted?

I would support Rent Control if we could kick out tenants who don't pay the rent when they are 3 days late.
When I had a tenant who left owing 4 grand, I had no recourse, and I couldn't effectively kick him out. I had to grin an bear it for months and months until he left.
The left wing loonies say that it part of the risk I take because I rent out a property. Fair enough. I say to whinging tenants - go buy a house then if rents are too high. That is the price you pay for not owning a house.

That risk too should be priced into your rent. The market wouldnt allow it a few years ago, but it does now. So any profit you make must also include an "insurance premium" since you have to protect yourself against this little oversight by the powers that be, that could cost you a fortune.

See it all trickles down to the end user in the end.

dinnyirwin

davyy77 wrote: »

That's your own fault for letting it get that far!!

Not everyone Is in a position to buy and wants that financial burden, or make a decision about living in Dublin long term.

And that is where the value in the rent is to them. The tenant must weigh up what that burden is worth and pay whatever amount of rent they feel the removal of that burden is worth. If the rent in a place is higher than the are willing to pay they have to find somewhere cheaper to live.

Or else they must deal with the other side of that equation and reassess that burden.

I think if someone cant afford to buy the house that they want right now, they are unlikely to be able to afford to buy that house in the future and will have to look where a house they want is cheaper - or just rent. I know some people think that house prices will come down again soon in Dublin, but really .... ? We have had huge rises in property. We have had huge drops in property prices. Do people really think we are going to have another huge drop again, without us going into the up cycle again first? If they do then wait it out, but you can see some people realising that their refusal to face reality is really making them bitter.

The_Conductor

davyy77 wrote: »

That's your own fault for letting it get that far!!

Not everyone Is in a position to buy and wants that financial burden, or make a decision about living in Dublin long term.

Have you any idea how difficult it is to evict someone?
Following due process can take well over a year- most landlords just hope and pray that the tenant voluntarily leaves at some stage in the process- and doesn't cause too much damage. That they could be 10k in rent arrears- is just a case of grin and bear it- you're not going to get it from them anyway- and taking the trouble to chase it only costs more time, money and stress.

4k in arrears- and saying its the landlord's fault for letting it get that far- you really have no idea how hard it is to get rid of a tenant, I'm sorry- but you really don't.

davyy77

dinnyirwin wrote: »

The tenant gets a good standard when they rent.
Imagine they were there 4 years and the rent is €600 pm but rents went up market rate €1000pm for the last 3 years. Im happy because what they are paying is paying all of the costs involved and im not having to spend time or money on the property. I will leave the tenant on the €600 pm as im not triggered to do a review.
The tenant has saved €14400.

So if the place needed a lick of paint, a new mattress, new cutlery and crockery and a microwave.
If they were to live with the stains they put on the paint, and bought a new mattress and plates and cutlery themselves and a microwave themselves that would cost them about €300.

Now if after the first year they asked me to go and get someone to do theses things and the work thats involved around that. Im going to want to recover the cost. So, now im going to review that apartments finances and at the next opportunity im putting the rent up to market rate. I might do a few extra things to it while im at it increasing the value slightly above the existing market rate and will charge rent at that level from then on.

So the tenant has done themselves and me a favor by helping themselves and not involving me and saved themselves €14000. Im happy because my costs are covered and i basically can forget about the apartment due to a good tenant.

I am not being greedy when I put up the rent. I am charging the best price i can get for my service. If I charge too much I will not get it, so obviously it is the right price.

So its not a case of punishing them for coming to me. Its rewarding them for being self sufficient and knowing what will trigger me to review the rent. I am

And now into the mix you have the government triggering that review with landlords.

I think overall down to the person as a landlord, have a great relationship with my landlord at present and only moving out as wanting to live with my other half,anytime anything needed fixing which was rarely the price of rent didn't increase!my point is if a place is left a state by the tenant then that's what the deposit is for!!

If I'm renting and a washing machine breaks down I'm sorry but due to natural course of wear and tear things happen and it up to the landlord to take the hit for that and that by law is our right!

I understood your view but it's just down to a matter of opinion

If a place is nice I don't mind paying the rent for it,it's just some places are literally horrible! My point is that some landlords not all, have no shame renting places for certain prices due to market at moment!

davyy77

The_Conductor wrote: »

Have you any idea how difficult it is to evict someone?
Following due process can take well over a year- most landlords just hope and pray that the tenant voluntarily leaves at some stage in the process- and doesn't cause too much damage. That they could be 10k in rent arrears- is just a case of grin and bear it- you're not going to get it from them anyway- and taking the trouble to chase it only costs more time, money and stress.

4k in arrears- and saying its the landlord's fault for letting it get that far- you really have no idea how hard it is to get rid of a tenant, I'm sorry- but you really don't.

I know that there are steps landlords can take in a situation like that,saying that I haven't been in that situation so I totally take what you say I don't know.

cmssjone

davyy77 wrote: »

I think overall down to the person as a landlord, have a great relationship with my landlord at present and only moving out as wanting to live with my other half,anytime anything needed fixing which was rarely the price of rent didn't increase!my point is if a place is left a state by the tenant then that's what the deposit is for!!

If I'm renting and a washing machine breaks down I'm sorry but due to natural course of wear and tear things happen and it up to the landlord to take the hit for that and that by law is our right!

I understood your view but it's just down to a matter of opinion

If a place is nice I don't mind paying the rent for it,it's just some places are literally horrible! My point is that some landlords not all, have no shame renting places for certain prices due to market at moment!

As stated before, landlords will set a price that is attainable due to market forces. It really is simple economics. Are you saying that you would not try to attain the best possible price for a service/product you were selling? If someone is willing to pay, then what is the problem? If you mean that some LLs are charging for a service that they do not provide, then that is a different story...

pinkmonkey045

For people starting out in their careers, the possibility of buying a house is nil unless you win the lotto (I hold out hope!). But thank you for the consideration that 'the rent is the price we pay for not buying', you pleasant individual.

What I see in my peers (20 somethings) is that Dublin has a generation of people who are 'failing to launch' that is, to get out of the parents gaff/ returning to parents gaff.
Thinking of renting a 2 bed with your best mate? Forget it pals! Unless you have 800 each a month, and that's before the bidding war at viewing?!!!

If you're making entry level money (25k, 30k) you won't be renting and saving that's for sure. So how can you save for the deposit for a house?

I'm not sure how it could get any worse at this point as it's so horrendously bad right now??? Are people secretly making small fortunes to afford this rent??

dinnyirwin

davyy77 wrote: »

I think overall down to the person as a landlord, have a great relationship with my landlord at present and only moving out as wanting to live with my other half,anytime anything needed fixing which was rarely the price of rent didn't increase!my point is if a place is left a state by the tenant then that's what the deposit is for!!

If I'm renting and a washing machine breaks down I'm sorry but due to natural course of wear and tear things happen and it up to the landlord to take the hit for that and that by law is our right!

I understood your view but it's just down to a matter of opinion

If a place is nice I don't mind paying the rent for it,it's just some places are literally horrible! My point is that some landlords not all, have no shame renting places for certain prices due to market at moment!

Im sure if a washing machine breaks down i'll be called and will have to get a repair or a new one. And at the same time i'll be entering that into my property diary for that property. At the end of the year that property will be on my list for rent review and after my research, if the market allows I will increase the rent. If it is a part 4 i'll probably review the rent the following month if it hasnt changed for over a year. If its a lease it will be the end of the lease.

Nobody is doing anything wrong. I wouldnt expect the tenant to buy a new washing machine. Tenant just had a bit of bad luck in that they have triggered my rent review scenario. If the washing machine hadnt have broken that property would be at the back of the rent review list and i am entitled to adjust the rent or not as i see fit. Of course if there isnt room for a rent increase there wont be one, but if there is then it will be whatever the market rate is at the time of the review.

I like to reward the tenants who dont need me to spend money or time (as long as the property is performing) whether its their fault or not (it still costs me even when its not their fault). I used to let long term tenants like this off the rent in December as a bonus, but then some of them just came to expect this and even asked that I reduce every other month instead of giving them back Decembers. They didnt think of it as a bonus anymore. So now I just dont review the rent instead of giving them back some of the rent.

Thomas D

It is a disgrace. This is not the fair result of a free market.

Buildings are cheap. Land is cheap. But we have a political policy going back a long time of restricting house building so as not to harm the wealth of the older generation.

davyy77

cmssjone wrote: »

As stated before, landlords will set a price that is attainable due to market forces. It really is simple economics. Are you saying that you would not try to attain the best possible price for a service/product you were selling? If someone is willing to pay, then what is the problem? If you mean that some LLs are charging for a service that they do not provide, then that is a different story...

That is exactly what I am saying!

dinnyirwin

pinkmonkey045 wrote: »

For people starting out in their careers, the possibility of buying a house is nil unless you win the lotto (I hold out hope!). But thank you for the consideration that 'the rent is the price we pay for not buying', you pleasant individual.

What I see in my peers (20 somethings) is that Dublin has a generation of people who are 'failing to launch' that is, to get out of the parents gaff/ returning to parents gaff.
Thinking of renting a 2 bed with your best mate? Forget it pals! Unless you have 800 each a month, and that's before the bidding war at viewing?!!!

If you're making entry level money (25k, 30k) you won't be renting and saving that's for sure. So how can you save for the deposit for a house?

I'm not sure how it could get any worse at this point as it's so horrendously bad right now??? Are people secretly making small fortunes to afford this rent??

There is nothing new in what you have posted there. Forever, apart from 2002 - 2006, young people cannot afford to buy a house, and always think rent is more expensive than its ever been. When you reach 30 or 40 you will see this, when a 20 year old comes up to you and complains that they cant get a mortgage, and rent is so expensive and they dont get paid enough.

All generations think they had it harder than the last. When they actually have it much easier. They wont notice for another generation or so though.
Im sure when im in my 50's i'll look back at some of the things i think im right about in my forties and laugh too. But now at least I am aware that that is the way life works. In my 20s and 30s i never would have thought that my 40 year old self would laugh at me.

cmssjone

davyy77 wrote: »

That is exactly what I am saying!

There are many awful LLs out there and also some very good ones. The PRTB (as poor as it is) is now available for tenants to recoup costs etc from inadequate LLs.

The problem is that most LLs know that we are very good at complaining and not very proactive when it comes to asserting our rights. Yes, the PRTB is a slow process but, if you are right you will receive compensation. Also a nice fine for the LL for not being registered (poor ones generally aren't), revenue issues etc

As for these LLs increasing the rents to market levels for substandard stock. Nobody is forcing you to rent from these people - that is your choice.

davyy77

cmssjone wrote: »

There are many awful LLs out there and also some very good ones. The PRTB (as poor as it is) is now available for tenants to recoup costs etc from inadequate LLs.

The problem is that most LLs know that we are very good at complaining and not very proactive when it comes to asserting our rights. Yes, the PRTB is a slow process but, if you are right you will receive compensation. Also a nice fine for the LL for not being registered (poor ones generally aren't), revenue issues etc

As for these LLs increasing the rents to market levels for substandard stock. Nobody is forcing you to rent from these people - that is your choice.

Out of principle I won't! But we have have situations where there is hundreds of people going to viewings at a time, bidding wars, shortage of rental properties that are actually rentable!

cmssjone

davyy77 wrote: »

Out of principle I won't! But we have have situations where there is hundreds of people going to viewings at a time, bidding wars, shortage of rental properties that are actually rentable!

You choose not to and others do. Yes there is a lack of supply and hence price hikes. It is possible to rent outside of Dublin and commute. It is up to an individual to rent a place depending on factors important to that person. Some people will put up with a crap LL if it means them living in the area they want. I am not agreeing this should happen but we both know it does...

cookie1977

cmssjone wrote: »

You choose not to and others do. Yes there is a lack of supply and hence price hikes. It is possible to rent outside of Dublin and commute. It is up to an individual to rent a place depending on factors important to that person. Some people will put up with a crap LL if it means them living in the area they want. I am not agreeing this should happen but we both know it does...

I remember when bedsits came to an end and the amount of people ringing joe duffy saying that while the level of quality might be questionable they were both happy with that as it was something they could afford and they would not be able to afford the higher standards now on offer. It's an odd one for me to connect with but I do see their point when it comes to costs.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

In fact by taxing the landlord it ends up that tenants pay more than if they'd been taxed directly because the rent increase is gross before tax. In Germany there's a list of things a landlord can pass on directly to his tenant, including property tax.

A LIST :eek: .........Mein Gott !.....this would immediately be challenged in our Supreme Court.

Just as with our wildly implausible operation of the "Right" to bail,much of our daily problems appear to revert back to a "Constitution" dating from the 1920's,being interpreted and applied by a colection of incredibles such as these fine fellows.....

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/964ff98054a8983e80257c83005d297d?OpenDocument

Ireland appears reluctant to embrace the realities of the European model,which are only now beginning to filter down to the ordinaries...oh how we loved the inflow of "EU Funding,especially if we could get away with maintaining our own quirky "bungalow on half-an-acre,Three Bed Semi for all" ethos.....

Perhaps their eminences in the Supreme Court will adjudicate on the Rental market when they have a spare minute ?