The farcical state of renting in Dublin

professore

The Spider wrote: »

Sounds absolutely horrific, mega city one here we come, and when they die we can send 'em to resyk (you'll have to read judge dredd).

We're leaving our house and apartment to the kids, end of. Seriously I doubt I'm going to get old and suddenly have an urge to live in the worst shared accommodation ever.

Sharing with strangers was ****e when I was in my twenties, really ****e in my thirties, and I'd bet it'd be the ****est of the ****e in my seventies.

Non runner, in my opinion, people in Ireland are far too parcochial, look at the amount of threads by people wanting to buy in the area they grew up in but being priced out.

Same applies to older people, they've lived in their house all their lives and now no mortgage, why should they give it up?

Younger lads need to either earn more or move out and commute, all these suggestions from move out the elderly, to repossess houses, so we can get cheap housing are insane.

Tell that to my 74 year old mum crippled with arthritis rattling around alone in a family home in the middle of nowhere. Sounds like paradise to me.

Mrs OBumble

TheDoc wrote: »

Keep getting told that the landlords are securing their own tenants, even while utilising an estate agent also.

I'm looking in the Fingal area, prodominantly Swords. I'm originally from there, and the misses is from Malahide.

Well between the two of you - start working your network so that you can become one of those selected tenants!

Have yiou posted on your Facebook that you're looking? Told all your family and IRL friends and colleagues - and specifically asked them to keep an eye out for you?

Go thru your LinkedIn profile, identify who you know who migh either have a rental property in the area, or who might know someone who does. Send them a message, again, asking for assistance.

Similarly work any contacts you have thru sports clubs, community organisations etc.

Serioulsy, I can understand foreigners or blow-ins having difficulty. But if you're local, you should be milking that fact.

murphaph

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Serioulsy, I can understand foreigners or blow-ins having difficulty. But if you're local, you should be milking that fact.

Being quite honest with you if I had a choice of a continental blow in tenant from a renting culture over an Irish/British tenant I'd take the continental. Different set of expectations and sense of responsibility (much less likely to pull the old "deposit as last month's rent trick" etc. Sad but true for many landlords...the Continental professional is their ideal tenant.

TheDoc

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Well between the two of you - start working your network so that you can become one of those selected tenants!

Have yiou posted on your Facebook that you're looking? Told all your family and IRL friends and colleagues - and specifically asked them to keep an eye out for you?

Go thru your LinkedIn profile, identify who you know who migh either have a rental property in the area, or who might know someone who does. Send them a message, again, asking for assistance.

Similarly work any contacts you have thru sports clubs, community organisations etc.

Serioulsy, I can understand foreigners or blow-ins having difficulty. But if you're local, you should be milking that fact.

Yeah have thrown the net out, oddly enough caught nothing, I know a lot of people in the area. But can't get a link to the various properties where we are looking which is peculiar.

drumswan

murphaph wrote: »

Being quite honest with you if I had a choice of a continental blow in tenant from a renting culture over an Irish/British tenant I'd take the continental. Different set of expectations and sense of responsibility (much less likely to pull the old "deposit as last month's rent trick" etc. Sad but true for many landlords...the Continental professional is their ideal tenant.

Lucky lads, they are in for some shock when they encounter the average Irish landlord

Potatoeman

murphaph wrote: »

Being quite honest with you if I had a choice of a continental blow in tenant from a renting culture over an Irish/British tenant I'd take the continental. Different set of expectations and sense of responsibility (much less likely to pull the old "deposit as last month's rent trick" etc. Sad but true for many landlords...the Continental professional is their ideal tenant.

It works both ways though. There are just as many threads on here about landlords withholding deposits for little or no reason.

TheDoc

Potatoeman wrote: »

It works both ways though. There are just as many threads on here about landlords withholding deposits for little or no reason.

Feedback I'm getting from estate agents are that they have preference for Irish tenants, and to be honest aren't considering applications from Europeans or foreigners unless under certain criteria. Which seems to be, "Are they here working with Google" etc.

I've a fair idea of why the landlords in the area are reluctant, unfortuntely few bad apples ruining the cart sort of thing.

But I think the whole world of tennants and landlords is WAY too scenario specific/dependant to make any sweeping statements that are in anyway accurate tbh .

borderlinemeath

TheDoc wrote: »

Keep getting told that the landlords are securing their own tenants, even while utilising an estate agent also.

Estate agents are just turning out to be a barrier for us thus far. I need to meet the landlords directly, and if they are reasonable, I'm sure they will see us as good options for the longterm.

Got a call this morning from that estate agent to outline the landlord has secured his own tenant. I've been getting calls from this estate agent over a few weeks now, I was happy to provide him with my specs so he could get in touch whenever something came across his desk.

I didn't in anyway get angry at him, its not his fault, but had a constructive conversation that I felt estate agent dealings were really just an unnecessary blockade. Either the landlord is providing the agency with the permission and task of locating a tenant, or he/she is not. I asked that if hes getting in touch with me on future opportunities, that he request the landlord present so I can meet them during the viewing. He was pretty much agreeing with me and advised that they are encountering a lot more of this recently whereby landlords avail of their services, but then get a tenant on their own. He said the agency are going to review their policy and most likely charge landlords fees before services are provided to remove this sort of messing, as the fees are typically renumerated once a tenant is moved in, it was causing a lot of wasted resourcing on agencies parts.

We were arranging the likes of lease and documentation when the landlord rang to say he wouldn't be requiring their services as he got someone.

In the current market where an agents fees are a legitimate expense and completely deductible from a landlords tax liability - it's either a very naive, unregistered, or non tax compliant landlord that would go without an agent. Only my opinion of course.

I really hope you find somewhere soon, although you are relatively lucky that your families live locally and you have something to fall back on. It's far from ideal though.

TheDoc

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In the current market where an agents fees are a legitimate expense and completely deductible from a landlords tax liability - it's either a very naive, unregistered, or non tax compliant landlord that would go without an agent. Only my opinion of course.

I really hope you find somewhere soon, although you are relatively lucky that your families live locally and you have something to fall back on. It's far from ideal though.

Interesting

I'd have imagined that the reason landlords might try source themselves is to avoid any fees payable to Estate Agents? Even if it's tax liable ( didn't know it was) it's still an expense the landlord is paying in the short term, and receiving renumeration longterm

So I can understand why they want to source tenants themselves. And as I outlined I'd nearly prefer it at this stage so I can try strike a deal on the spot, rather then this messing with waiting for documents and references to be sent through.

gaius c

Good luck with the hunt. Hope you find a place soon.

Idbatterim

to put things into Dublin into perspective!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/23/london-houseboat-slum-rents-barge

The government are allowing the exact same situation repeat itself all over again, there is still large amounts of undeveloped land around the docklands, why not create high density apartments that can house young people and family friendly apartments alongside them... Are we all going to be screaming for pay rises due to insane housing costs like during the boom, massively increasing inflation and destroying competitiveness again?!

The_Conductor

Idbatterim wrote: »

to put things into Dublin into perspective!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/23/london-houseboat-slum-rents-barge

The government are allowing the exact same situation repeat itself all over again, there is still large amounts of undeveloped land around the docklands, why not create high density apartments that can house young people and family friendly apartments alongside them... Are we all going to be screaming for pay rises due to insane housing costs like during the boom, massively increasing inflation and destroying competitiveness again?!

Similar article in last weeks Economist (I can't link to it here, as its behind a paywall)- stating that highly paid professionals (Architects, doctors etc) are now effectively excluded from living in London. Meanwhile once 'dodgy' areas are becoming trendy- perhaps not Waitrose territories, but not far off......

We are going there. We have stratified society. The very wealthy are earning vast sums again (the waiting list of BMWs with options in Ireland is now 9 months). The hard-pressed middle are worse off than ever (those on salaries between 40k and 70k are now less likely to have children than at any time in the past- it takes a bit of datamining- but you can extrapolate from CSO figures). Meanwhile our population boom driven by stay-at-home parents (through loss of employment, or by design) is also petering out- the population boom of the last few years is in fast reverse.

No-one is joining up the dots, looking at the bigger picture- and extrapolating over the longer term as to the effects todays policies will have on society of 20-30-40 years time. I know I'll hardly be alive to retire at 70- yet that is when the government has decreed I'll get a contributory Old Age Pension at. 70....... Makes you wonder whether there is any intelligence in the thinking or not- or indeed whether the intelligence behind the picture is in fact a concerted effort to try to get people to leave.......?

murphaph

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In the current market where an agents fees are a legitimate expense and completely deductible from a landlords tax liability - it's either a very naive, unregistered, or non tax compliant landlord that would go without an agent. Only my opinion of course.

And spectacularly wrong it is too. An agent's fee is an expense so obviously is deducted from gross rent receivable when calculating net profit. However you seem to think this is the same as some sort of cash refund from Revenue! It's still an expense that eats into net profit.

The_Conductor

murphaph wrote: »

And spectacularly wrong it is too. An agent's fee is an expense so obviously is deducted from gross rent receivable when calculating net profit. However you seem to think this is the same as some sort of cash refund from Revenue! It's still an expense that eats into net profit.

100% correct.
So- depending on a landlord's liabilities- over half the cost of an agent could well be coming off the bottom line. Being deductible from gross income, before determination of taxable income- is most certainly not the same as being deductible from a tax liability- though it would be very nice if it were........

cookie1977

The_Conductor wrote: »

100% correct.
So- depending on a landlord's liabilities- over half the cost of an agent could well be coming off the bottom line. Being deductible from gross income, before determination of taxable income- is most certainly not the same as being deductible from a tax liability- though it would be very nice if it were........

And good agents are not only expensive but can be very hard to find.

borderlinemeath

cookie1977 wrote: »

And good agents are not only expensive but can be very hard to find.

This I do agree with. My OH used an agent during the boom that never checked on the property and when the tenants moved out the damage was beyond a joke. They had the nerve to ask for their deposit back with a list of broken furniture, bins stuffed to the gills (green bin full of household waste that had practically turned to sludge) and holes punched in doors and lumps missing out of plasterboard walls. They got a solicitors letter instead.

MouseTail

The_Conductor wrote: »

Similar article in last weeks Economist (I can't link to it here, as its behind a paywall)- stating that highly paid professionals (Architects, doctors etc) are now effectively excluded from living in London. Meanwhile once 'dodgy' areas are becoming trendy- perhaps not Waitrose territories, but not far off......

that's not new though, quite a few years ago a Key Worker scheme was brought in in the London boroughs, which could be emulated here, to provide affordable housing to middle income 'key workers', such as teachers, nurses etc.

murphaph

The_Conductor wrote: »

100% correct.
So- depending on a landlord's liabilities- over half the cost of an agent could well be coming off the bottom line. Being deductible from gross income, before determination of taxable income- is most certainly not the same as being deductible from a tax liability- though it would be very nice if it were........

Indeed. My tenants would have gold plated taps if it were!

Claw Hammer

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In the current market where an agents fees are a legitimate expense and completely deductible from a landlords tax liability - it's either a very naive, unregistered, or non tax compliant landlord that would go without an agent. Only my opinion of course.

.

The agent has to be paid, even if tax deductible there is a cost to the Landlord. There is also the fact that agents are relatively slow to let accommodation. In the current market a landlord can have a tenant viewing on the day of advertising and have the deal done immediately. Getting an agent often means waiting for days while the agent schedules viewings. Agents take their fee out of the deposit so the landlord has a cashflow issue, since it is likely that the old tenant will have got back a deposit and money will have been spent freshening up the unit before letting. Agents are often less interested in getting a good tenant than the landlord. They are paid before the tenant moves in so aren't too worried about what might happen after.

murphaph

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The agent has to be paid, even if tax deductible there is a cost to the Landlord. There is also the fact that agents are relatively slow to let accommodation. In the current market a landlord can have a tenant viewing on the day of advertising and have the deal done immediately. Getting an agent often means waiting for days while the agent schedules viewings. Agents take their fee out of the deposit so the landlord has a cashflow issue, since it is likely that the old tenant will have got back a deposit and money will have been spent freshening up the unit before letting. Agents are often less interested in getting a good tenant than the landlord. They are paid before the tenant moves in so aren't too worried about what might happen after.

To be honest if a LL is relying on using a deposit to freshen a property up between lettings then he's doing something wrong. The LL should be putting money aside for maintenance and renovations (gas boilers go etc. and you have to replace them immediately) and if they're not it's pretty poor money management.

Claw Hammer

Renting in Dublin now is not as bad as in the early 1980s. Most accommodation was old and some ads even cited carpet and fridge as if they were luxuries!
Central heating was unknown. Most people had to sleep 2 or 3 to a bedroom. Double bedsitters were common with two people sleeping, eating, cooking in the same room and sharing a bathroom with several others.
The current situation was predicted two years ago and nothing was done. It is going to get very much worse.
The foreign companies who have bought large blocks won't be long bailing out when they endure the horrors of the PRTB and the legislation governing residential tenancies.
Tenants are always looking for standards but the standards of many tenants are abysmal. They view a contract as one-sided only. They pay rent when they feel like it, never clean the property and jump up and leave when it suits them. Then they want their deposit back after leaving the place like a pigsty.

dinnyirwin

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The agent has to be paid, even if tax deductible there is a cost to the Landlord. There is also the fact that agents are relatively slow to let accommodation. In the current market a landlord can have a tenant viewing on the day of advertising and have the deal done immediately. Getting an agent often means waiting for days while the agent schedules viewings. Agents take their fee out of the deposit so the landlord has a cashflow issue, since it is likely that the old tenant will have got back a deposit and money will have been spent freshening up the unit before letting. Agents are often less interested in getting a good tenant than the landlord. They are paid before the tenant moves in so aren't too worried about what might happen after.

I use an agent now for all my properties. I pay 8% and that includes getting tenants and managing the property. I dont have to do a thing apart from make a decision when money has to be spent on the property. So on a €1000 a month rental, it costs me €40pm for the agent. Well worth it for the hassle free life.
I have never had any problems with the agent I use. He always has a new tenant in the day after someone moves out. He has his handymen, electricians, plumbers etc and I have never felt ripped off on the prices he gets from them.
When I compare this to the times I managed the properties myself its pure bliss tbh.
I wouldnt ever hire an agent to just get a tenant. Thats a rip off. Its either full service or nothing.

Victor

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In the current market where an agents fees are a legitimate expense and completely deductible from a landlords tax liability - it's either a very naive, unregistered, or non tax compliant landlord that would go without an agent.

Or they might have plenty of experience and business acumen.

The_Conductor

Victor wrote: »

Or they might have plenty of experience and business acumen.

And most professional landlords manage their businesses themselves- its a fulltime job for many of them. Agents act as a go-between predominantly where the landlord is either not present- or alternatively his scale of operations are such that its not viable to dedicate his time to his properties.

The way managing properties works- 75% (just picking this figure for illustrative purposes) of the time and effort is involved in getting involved in the business at all- becoming au fait with legislation and requirements, registering details, doing tax etc. This is a sunk effort- its the same with 1 or 100 tenants. The rest of the effort is apportioned among how ever many properties a landlord may have- organising repairs and seeing to the day-to-day running of the enterprise.

Its far less effort for a landlord who only has a few properties- to employ an agent to act on his/her behalf- and insulates them both from the day-to-day nitty gritty of managing the properties- but also from legislation and requirements (which the agent will fulfill on their behalf.

A good agent is worth their weight in gold. Unfortunately there are a significant cadre of chancers who see it as simple way to extort money from both landlords and tenants- with minimal of effort expended.

We need to have standards, minimal standards, that should apply to agents- along with service level contracts etc- the current state of affairs is appalling.

Endotoxin

I'd say rents will easily go up by another 20%. A middle class couple earning 80k between them will be the ones who can afford the increases and so the cheaper one and two beds will go up.

The_Conductor

Endotoxin wrote: »

I'd say rents will easily go up by another 20%. A middle class couple earning 80k between them will be the ones who can afford the increases and so the cheaper one and two beds will go up.

I'd have to disagree. A middle class couple earning 80k between them- if they have 1 or 2 children- all of a sudden, would actually be significantly better off on social welfare.

80k- isn't that great a wage- when your marginal rate of taxation hits almost 60% once your salary is only 32k- and if you have childcare to factor into the equation- you are screwed- totally screwed.

OMD

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd have to disagree. A middle class couple earning 80k between them- if they have 1 or 2 children- all of a sudden, would actually be significantly better off on social welfare.

80k- isn't that great a wage- when your marginal rate of taxation hits almost 60% once your salary is only 32k- and if you have childcare to factor into the equation- you are screwed- totally screwed.

A married couple earning 80k (40k each) can expect to take home about €60,000 a year. While child care is an issue, once the children reach the age of 4 child care costs plummet.

handlemaster

When new property in Dublin comes on stream properly it will be two years I'd say from now then rent will start to drop.

The_Conductor

handlemaster wrote: »

When new property in Dublin comes on stream properly it will be two years I'd say from now then rent will start to drop.

2 years?
The issue is lack of development potential- alongside those in mature neighbourhoods, where everyone seems to want to live, nuking any plans for higher density housing units.

Our planning system is rigged in favour of nimbyism- allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to object to plans they don't want in their own backyard, but which are for the good of the people as a whole.

I can't see any volume of housing units coming on the market in the greater Dublin area- peripheral areas perhaps- but even look at the likes of Adamstown in SDCC- which had its planning permission revised by councillors not a month ago- reducing the density of housing there- allowing more stand-alone property and townhouses, where the planning had been for blocks of apartments.

There is a lack of joined up thinking- or rather- councils are running roughtrod over national plans and the Department of the Environment has no stick to keep them in line with (or appetite- given political statements by government party TDs who are choosing to copper fasten whatever they possibly can for their local communities, at the cost to the greater good of Ireland as a whole). Parochial politics, at its very best.

cookie1977

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd have to disagree. A middle class couple earning 80k between them- if they have 1 or 2 children- all of a sudden, would actually be significantly better off on social welfare.

80k- isn't that great a wage- when your marginal rate of taxation hits almost 60% once your salary is only 32k- and if you have childcare to factor into the equation- you are screwed- totally screwed.

God dammit why cant I do more than one thumbs up! AT one point my wife and I were paying 1850 euro per month in child care (2 kids). I could have afforded to have them in full time board school for less.