How to determine how old a gun is.

Base price

Is there any way of knowing how old a gun is by the markings on the barrels, like silver/gold can be aged by some of the stamps/markings.
I inherited my uncles old double barrel years ago. It is Spanish made (Ligano II) and from what I understand it is of little or no value, but for me it has. It was the first shotgun that I had a shot from when I was a youngster
I have tried searching on the net but cannot find any information about the company.
When I got the gun I brought it to a local gunsmith to get it checked out to make sure it was ok to use. When I handed it to him he made a sneery comment about the unknown manufacturer etc :mad:. I politely told him that good stables do not necessarily make good horses
To be honest the gun serves me well for the bit of rough and vermin shooting that I do during the year. I also like that fact that it is not heavy to carry like my last gun (o/u) which had more timber than a tree trunk.
Anyway, I would be interested in knowing how old this gun is. Thanks.

tac foley

IF your gun had come to Ireland from UK in the recent past [unlikey, given that it belonged to your uncle], then it would have had to have been proofed there prior to sale. So it would be profusely marked up with either London or Birmingham Proof House stamps. These stamps will be found all over the underneath of the barrels, and on the water-table of the action. If this is an ex-UK gun, and you can identify them for us, we can tell you when it was proofed, and that is as near as you'll ever get to a production date. If it had come to Ireland before independence, then it might have been proofed in Dublin.

Prior to 1904, Birmingham proof stamp will be crossed scepters and a letters at the intersections. This is a date code. There will also be a crown over BNP if it more modern, and a more cryptic version of the date code. London proof will be an arm holding a sceax [Saxon-type sword] and so on. Spanish proof marks are many and variable, but most shotguns are/are made in Eibar, gun-making capital of the Basque region of Spain. Some guns were part-made in Eibar AND Belgium - they will be stamped *ELG* AND Eibar. In this case, the *ELG* stands for 'Épreuve Liége' - Liége Proof'. However, the main mark on a Spanish gun is the knight's helm over a square shield containing the letter X. All dimensions will be in metric, too. Just let us know what you have and we'll try and figure it out for you.

To give you a start - here are a few pointers -

1922/23 - B; 1923/24 - C; 1924/25 - D; 1925/26 - E; 1926/27 - F; 1927/28 - G; 1928/29 - H; 1929/30 - J; 1930/31 - K; 1931/32 - L; 1932/33 - M; 1933/34 - N; 1934/35 - O; 1935/36 - P; 1936/37 - R; 1937/38 - S; 1938/39 - T; 1939/40 - U; 1940/41 - V.

The alphabet was restarted several years post-war in 1950 with A, but now each letter change was made at the beginning of the year. The mark was modified to that shown in Figure II, with D to the left representing 1953, and the B to the right identifying the Birmingham Proof House. The number below identified the inspector.

Thus the year codes were 1950 - A; 1951 - B; 1952 - C; 1953 - D; 1954 - E; 1955 - F; 1956 - G; 1957 - H; 1958 - J; and so on through to 1974 - Z; ................ note that Q was used in this series for 1965 .

From 1975 a further modification was made to the mark. Date code leters were thus 1975 - A; 1976 - B; 1977 - C; 1978 - D; 1979 - E; 1980 - F.

The data for dates came from here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/104794590/138/Hungarian-Proof-Marks - this document is used by the UK Forensic Science Services organisation.

Your gun was sold, as I'm sure I mentioned before, by the Spanish gun-trader Michael Ligarno, and although it is not a Purdey, neither is it anything that should cause a gun dealer to turn his nose up. It's a good, solid workmanlike gun, and precious to you, that's what matters.

tac

pedroeibar1

As usual Tac is on the money. The dealer had no business making a sneery comment unless the gun is unsafe.

Ligano guns generally were made by two Spanish companies in Eibar, the basic models by Gaspar Arizaga and the fancier models by Union Armera S. L. The latter is part of Grulla, a top-rank manufacturer (the King of Spain shoots Grullas). Gaspar Arrizaga also was a good manufacturer also who became part DIARM and did not emerge from that fiasco. None of them were very cheap when sold – a US importer was selling the basic model for $100 and top model for $275 in the 1950’s.

Without photos it is impossible to say more – there should be a 'year' letter stamped on the action flats - for example A1 is 1955, B1 is 1956, etc.
Post a few photos and we can advise more.

Base price

Thanks for the replies guys. I have taken photos as best I can and hope they are good enough for you to see the marks properly.

tac foley

Good pics!! Yes, your gun is an Eibar-made 12g, capable of taking only 2 3/4" cartridges. The 12/70 tells us that. The crossed guns and 2 are the black powder provisional proof. This version of this stamp was only in use between 14 December 1929 and 9 July 1931.

That is as near as it is possible to get.

Sorry.

tac

pedroeibar1

Sort of agree Tac, but the BP over the oval (stamp for reinforced smokeless proof) was introduced in 1931, replacing the AXIII mark enclosed in a shield.
Is the ‘O’ part of the serial number or is it a date stamp? If the latter it is 1944.
Any views on the IMA stamp? Manufacturer's mark?

Base price

Don't apologise as you have given me more information that I had before
My Uncle was born in 1932, now I am wondering did the gun originally belong to my grandfather.
Another couple of questions if you can answer them for me. You have to shoot the right barrel first because if you only shoot left barrel the gun will not break open until you fire the right barrel. The sneery gunsmith told me that was normal in older guns. In fairness he did fix the safety so that it automatically reset when the gun was broken.
Also regarding 2 3/4" cartridges, I have used 2 1/2" and 2 5/8" before. Should I stop using them and only use 2 3/4"

tac foley

That's all the documentation I can turn up, sorry. It's the UK FSS documentation, that's all I know.

You have more details than I do.

tac

tac foley

Base price wrote: »

Don't apologise as you have given me more information that I had before
My Uncle was born in 1932, now I am wondering did the gun originally belong to my grandfather.
Another couple of questions if you can answer them for me. You have to shoot the right barrel first because if you only shoot left barrel the gun will not break open until you fire the right barrel. The sneery gunsmith told me that was normal in older guns. In fairness he did fix the safety so that it automatically reset when the gun was broken.
Also regarding 2 3/4" cartridges, I have used 2 1/2" and 2 5/8" before. Should I stop using them and only use 2 3/4"

Madam - you have exhausted my VERY limited knowledge on shotguns! In fact, what I DO know about them could be written in large letters on an angel's eyelash. However, as the gun was proofed for one length of cartridge, it would be dangerous to use anything bigger. You are using shorter cartridges...I DO know that shooting .38Spec cartridges in a gun made for .357Mag is not a good idea, due to gas erosion at the end of the case - perhaps this is not so important given the lower pressures of a shotgun cartridge.

As for how the action works, well, I've never heard of that one before, but after all, the guy is a gunsmith, and I am not, so what do I know?

I had only ever one shotgun in my life, and that was a Darne - it operated in a different way to a break-open shotgun. Hopefully, pedroeibar or another expert on shotguns can drop by and offer you an opinion here. I note that the 'sneery' gunsmith' didn't object to doing the job and taking your money, eh?

A pal of mine, who runs a thriving gunstore in OR has positioned a full-length mirror by the doorway, right as you walk in. It has a sign over the top of it, that reads 'You are looking at the most important person in this store'. Some folks need to remember that, here in UK and elsewhere.

tac

Base price

The "0" on the barrels is faded but when you look at the stock it is easier to read. According to the licence the serial no is 1175 :eek:

tac foley

Looks like 11750 to me.

But then, I'm pretty old - maybe I'm seeing double.

tac

Base price

You have been very helpful and informative and many thanks.
By the way its Madam - as I am too old to be considered a Miss

meathstevie

I for one would not underestimate the double barrel shotguns that have come out of the Basque country. There has been a gun making tradition there for ages that doesn't have to be rated any less than what Germany, England, Italy and Belgium have had to offer.

The only difference with the other European makers of good quality sporting arms that are still standing is that the Basque tradition has had to cope with a lot more fundamental management disasters. No surprise really if you look at Spain's last century of political and economical history.

tac foley

Just found this - might be of some use, me, I'm going shooting.

Amongst proof marks are codes enabling one to determine the date of manufacture of many guns.

Birmingham, England: date code letter placement:

1921 - 1941: Letter at top of intersection of crossed swords. Number of dots beneath to indicate inspector.

1950 - 1974: Letter at left of intersection of crossed swords. B at right. Inspector's number underneath.

1975 - 1984: Letter inside upper left of circle. B at upper right. Inspector's number at bottom.

1985 - 1997: Letter at left of intersection of crossed swords. C at right. Inspector's number at bottom.

London, England: LP over 2-digit year; began relatively recently.

Gardone, Italy: Month and Year in Roman numerals until 1945. Sans-serif Roman numerals from 1945 until 1975, then a two-letter code surrounded by a small rectangle as per the chart below.

Eibar, Spain: Until 1994, a code amongst the proofmarks. After 1994, the last two digits of the 4-part serial number.

Suhl, Germany: Month and year, 3 or 4 numerals as required, with forward slash between month and year until 1930s, as: 5/24 for May 1924. Afterwards without slash, as: 1163 for November 1963.

Ferlach, Austria: The proof house's number, followed by a dot, then by a 2-digit number for the year, as: 346.33 for the 346th gun proofed in 1933. During the 1980s a three letter code was adopted, for example: ETR, where the first letter is the month code, the second letter is always a T and the third letter is the year code. Also, an individual gunmaker's code appears in the following format: a 2-digit number followed by a dot and then typically a 4-digit number where the two digit number is the code for the gunmaking firm and the four digit number is his serial number--see Chart

tac

Nekarsulm

http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71304&PHPSESSID=bb9473350841990c3d0ddaf743c433a0


http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones.html

Bit of googling threw up this website

Would it not be usual for the 850 kgs to be stamped on each barrel? Or is the 1500 on the second barrel something else?

Ah, I see that the 1500 is the barrel weight in grammes

Base price

Nekarsulm wrote: »

http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=71304&PHPSESSID=bb9473350841990c3d0ddaf743c433a0


http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones.html

Bit of googling threw up this website

Would it not be usual for the 850 kgs to be stamped on each barrel? Or is the 1500 on the second barrel something else?

Ah, I see that the 1500 is the barrel weight in grammes

Thanks for the links. The IPSC Gasteiz one is very helpful
I have figured out that the barrels were made by Lizarrade, Esteban as they are stamped "<H>"

pedroeibar1

Base price wrote: »

Another couple of questions if you can answer them for me. You have to shoot the right barrel first because if you only shoot left barrel the gun will not break open until you fire the right barrel. The sneery gunsmith told me that was normal in older guns. In fairness he did fix the safety so that it automatically reset when the gun was broken.
Also regarding 2 3/4" cartridges, I have used 2 1/2" and 2 5/8" before. Should I stop using them and only use 2 3/4"

Never heard of a gun that needed both barrels to be fired before it could be opened. My oldest gun is c1880 and I can fire either left, right or or both barrels and it will open. I wonder if when ‘fixing’ your safety the ‘gunsmith’ screwed up something else? Hard to know what is causing this – perhaps something to do with the ejector mechanism? I’m not a gunsmith, just an interested amateur. I’d have somebody else look at it.

No issues with firing 2 ½ inch, just don’t use 3” cartridges.

Base price

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Never heard of a gun that needed both barrels to be fired before it could be opened. My oldest gun is c1880 and I can fire either left, right or or both barrels and it will open. I wonder if when ‘fixing’ your safety the ‘gunsmith’ screwed up something else? Hard to know what is causing this – perhaps something to do with the ejector mechanism? I’m not a gunsmith, just an interested amateur. I’d have somebody else look at it.

No issues with firing 2 ½ inch, just don’t use 3” cartridges.

Thanks for that, I will get another gunsmith to have a look at it.

tac foley

Base price wrote: »

Thanks for that, I will get another gunsmith to have a look at it.

Yup. Find one that doesn't sneer.

tac

Base price

I eventually got my shotgun sorted by a proper gunsmith.
I left it into a lad who sells guns and he said that he would give it to a approved gunsmith due to the fact that the triggers are weighted, I think that was the term he used.
Got the gun back and the trigger mechanism is sorted. I can now fire from either barrel and open the gun
Looking forward to the upcoming pheasant season.
Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.