Architectural Technologist Register

Supertech

Short Version

QQI (Quality Qualifications Ireland-formerly HETAC) Working Group established to devlelop common standard for Architectrual Technology.

The group expects to report in September following public consultation.

DECLG estimates that it will take one year thereafter to establish two registers - RIAI + CIAT.

Department acknowledged that AT's are seeking to fill the roles of DC / AC under SI9, and that there is no issue with this if the standard is deemed suitably high enough to ensure consumer protection.

In the interim those affected were urged to pursue the routes to registration as Architects or Building Surveyors currently open to AT's.

Charliebull

I am hearing now that those with MCIAT status will get accepted as assigned certifiers, it's in the process

BryanF

Charliebull wrote: »

I am hearing now that those with MCIAT status will get accepted as assigned certifiers, it's in the process

As part of the si9 amendment relating to domestic

Or as AD/AC on all in line with arch/eng/surveyor ??

Can I ask the source of this info?

bravojohnny

Hi All,

Looking for some advice; like some people here I was thinking of going down the route of becoming chartered with CIAT and then joining CABE which enables one to get on the Building Surveyors Register here in Ireland. Am I correct in saying by doing this I can fulfill the role as the Assigned Certifier?

Also is it worth going down this route; ie will SI365 be accepted by the banks and therefore I am wasting time by becoming eligible to be the assigned certifier?


Ps I am hoping to start up my own company in the next year and I feel that fulfilling the assigned certifier role is crucial?


Looking forward to your replies and thank for reading my post!

Bazlyons

Hi Johnny

It is my opinion that as an Architectural Technologist you should strongly consider joining the CIAT anyway regardless of whether you go the route to get on the BS register.

All Irish AT's should be in the CIAT as this is becoming a Global Association and the only body in Ireland capable of properly representing us.

Also in time we hope that the Govt will recognise the CIAT AT register to undertake the DC/AC roles under the BCAR without going the BS reg route.

Yes SI365 is being accepted by some of the banks but you'll still need to be a member of some organisation to sign off the stage payments. CIAT is one of the accepted organisations. Also do you really want to be doing domestic extensions and one off houses all the time?

Finally when you start up your company you'll require PI Insurance and mine is significantly cheaper through the CIAT than anyone else is offering in Ireland.

Best of luck.
BAZ

bravojohnny

Hi Bazlyons,

Many Thanks for your reply; apologies I should have stated that I am currently a member of CIAT (not chartered though).

I suppose my real question is; is it worth becoming an Assigned Certifier (seems alot of hassle going through CIAT to CABE to get onto the register of surveyors) - or do you think down the line becoming MCIAT will be a sufficient qualification to enable one to act as the Assigned Certifier?

Also,
I hope to work part time on my own company (small jobs); & also stay working with a larger practice, which enables me to work on commercial projects etc. (my boss is aware of my intentions).

Thanks again for your input.

Sparkyp1981

is there any archectural technicians here who draw up construction drawings in Kilkenny/carlow/laois area

certain

---

Are there any architectural technicians here who draw up construction drawings in South Dublin (Foxrock) area please?

beyondpassive

Survey for Arch Tech's here RE: Statutory Register for BC(A)R

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WPSCR8T

beyondpassive

Survey for Arch Tech's here RE: Statutory Register for BC(A)R

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/WPSCR8T

Bazlyons

Note from RIAI ISSUED 4 November - 2016

It looks like they're angling to jump ship in favour of the CIAT. Tough break for any Tech who decided to stay with the Royals.


"From the RIAI President
Update on Registration of the Title Architectural Technologist
RIAI President, Carole Pollard
Registration of the Title Architectural Technologist
The Building Control Act 2007 established the Statutory Registers for Architects, Quantity Surveyors and Building Surveyors. Architectural Technologists are a key constituent in the production and delivery of buildings in Ireland and generally, suitably qualified Architectural Technologists are competent to act as Certifiers of Compliance (Design) and Assigned Certifiers as defined by the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations.

Discussions have gained momentum in recent years, culminating in the development, with support of the RIAI, of a QQI Awards Standard for Architectural Technology which sets out the learning outcomes for graduates of Honours Bachelor degree programmes in Architectural Technology. The Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government is now exploring which organisation might take on the role of Registration Body for Architectural Technologists.

The RIAI is seeking to establish, through engagement and dialogue with members, whether the RIAI should seek to become the Registration Body for Architectural Technologists, or whether it would be better for Architectural Technologists to be registered by their own independent organisation.

To help you better understand the complexity of the debate regarding the establishment of a Register of Architectural Technologists, please consider the following:
We have undertaken a review of 19 other countries, within the EU and globally, and none have architects and architectural technologists within the same professional institute.

Currently, Registered Architect members have a vote in connection with the affairs of the RIAI. If the RIAI becomes the Registration Body for Architectural Technologists, the members will have to decide whether Registered Architectural Technologists would have full voting rights.

If a Register of Architectural Technologists is established should a clear definition of the roles of the architect and architectural technologists be published to ensure that there is clarity with regard to what distinguishes an Architect from an Architectural Technologist? For example, should Registered Architectural Technologists design buildings?

It is estimated that currently 500 Architectural Technologists qualify for inclusion on a Statutory Register (in accordance with the QQI Standard). The cost for the maintenance of the Register of Architects already places a considerable financial and resource burden on the RIAI. It is unlikely that an independent body with a membership of 500 could be self-financing.

Many of those currently working in the field of architectural technology will not qualify for entry to the Register of Architectural Technologists because their qualifications do not meet the QQI Standard. A ‘grandfathering’ system will need to be designed and administered. Who is the appropriate body to do this, and who will cover the cost of operation?
A survey will be issued next week to gather information on the sentiment and opinions of members on the role of the RIAI in the formation of a Register of Architectural Technologists. Any decision on the matter is subject to a vote of the membership at General Meeting.

Yours sincerely,

Carole Pollard RIAI President

shane6977

Bazlyons wrote: »

Note from RIAI ISSUED 4 November - 2016

It looks like they're angling to jump ship in favour of the CIAT. Tough break for any Tech who decided to stay with the Royals.


"From the RIAI President
Update on Registration of the Title Architectural Technologist
RIAI President, Carole Pollard
Registration of the Title Architectural Technologist
The Building Control Act 2007 established the Statutory Registers for Architects, Quantity Surveyors and Building Surveyors. Architectural Technologists are a key constituent in the production and delivery of buildings in Ireland and generally, suitably qualified Architectural Technologists are competent to act as Certifiers of Compliance (Design) and Assigned Certifiers as defined by the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations.

Discussions have gained momentum in recent years, culminating in the development, with support of the RIAI, of a QQI Awards Standard for Architectural Technology which sets out the learning outcomes for graduates of Honours Bachelor degree programmes in Architectural Technology. The Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government is now exploring which organisation might take on the role of Registration Body for Architectural Technologists.

The RIAI is seeking to establish, through engagement and dialogue with members, whether the RIAI should seek to become the Registration Body for Architectural Technologists, or whether it would be better for Architectural Technologists to be registered by their own independent organisation.

To help you better understand the complexity of the debate regarding the establishment of a Register of Architectural Technologists, please consider the following:
We have undertaken a review of 19 other countries, within the EU and globally, and none have architects and architectural technologists within the same professional institute.

Currently, Registered Architect members have a vote in connection with the affairs of the RIAI. If the RIAI becomes the Registration Body for Architectural Technologists, the members will have to decide whether Registered Architectural Technologists would have full voting rights.

If a Register of Architectural Technologists is established should a clear definition of the roles of the architect and architectural technologists be published to ensure that there is clarity with regard to what distinguishes an Architect from an Architectural Technologist? For example, should Registered Architectural Technologists design buildings?

It is estimated that currently 500 Architectural Technologists qualify for inclusion on a Statutory Register (in accordance with the QQI Standard). The cost for the maintenance of the Register of Architects already places a considerable financial and resource burden on the RIAI. It is unlikely that an independent body with a membership of 500 could be self-financing.

Many of those currently working in the field of architectural technology will not qualify for entry to the Register of Architectural Technologists because their qualifications do not meet the QQI Standard. A ‘grandfathering’ system will need to be designed and administered. Who is the appropriate body to do this, and who will cover the cost of operation?
A survey will be issued next week to gather information on the sentiment and opinions of members on the role of the RIAI in the formation of a Register of Architectural Technologists. Any decision on the matter is subject to a vote of the membership at General Meeting.

Yours sincerely,

Carole Pollard RIAI President

This could be read a number of ways in terms of the RIAI intentions regarding AT's.

Ultimately and unfortunately it seems it will be the architect members who decide the fate of AT within the institute.

In regards to voting rights, it will be a sad day for AT if the RIAI gets to run the register and AT's do not receive full voting rights, this is hinted at as a possiblity in the presidents text.

The suggestion of an "independent" organisation is ambiguous here, does this mean CIAT or does this mean a new body to represent Irish AT's? Pollard's email states that an independent body would have approx 500 eligible members, however CIAT currently have around this number of Irish members. So is it CIAT + 500? If so, then this would be a sustainable registration body, especially with the support of the greater CIAT body worldwide.

Personally, I am not in favour of a Grandfathering system and I don't think this would be required under a CIAT operated register. The CIAT Professional Assessment is the best method of determining a persons competence in order to be included on a statutory register.

It would be interesting to see the survey questions that the RIAI put to their members, hopefully someone will post them up here when the survey is released.

bazma8

There is no need for "grandfathering" under the CIAT. there is a progression to membership which is way less onerous than the RIAI system.

The CIAT is the only option worth anything now. They have the resources, knowledge and most of all interest in the profession.

shane6977

Did the RIAI AT survey get issued last week? Could anyone give an update on the general gist of the queations or even post up the questions?

Thanks.

bazma8

The RIAI Survey has been posted on BRegs Blog.

The tone is very welcoming.

If you still think the RIAI have a Technologists best interests at heart i have some "magic" beans you may be interested in.

http://www.bregsforum.com/2016/11/15/riai-survey-architectural-technologists-register/

BryanF

bazma8 wrote: »

If you still think the RIAI have a Technologists best interests at heart i have some "magic" beans you may be interested in.
]

As long as I can remember the riai has been serving its arch techs members as well as its architect members
Now, tell us more about those beans?

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

As long as I can remember the riai has been serving its arch techs members as well as its architect members
Now, tell us more about those beans?

?? not quite sure what you mean here bryan

Poor Uncle Tom

BryanF wrote: »

As long as I can remember the riai has been serving its arch techs members as well as its architect members
Now, tell us more about those beans?

Seriously?

Supertech

From the RIAI statement it would appear to me that they are at the exit door on the issue of AT Registration - in breach of their own policy of 2014. Looking at some of the questions on the Survey, they're overstepping the proper scope of the survey, and they're also sailing very close to anti-competitive waters in trying to define the roles which might be undertaken by future entrants on a properly vetted and maintained Statutory Register. (There is no reservation of function in Ireland except in the limited case of Department of Education works, which in itself might be dodgy in terms of Competition Law).

While the clarity an RIAI exit would bring is good (one register, one standard for all AT potential registrants) this would put a massive strain on CIAT's UK resources for little potential extra return in Ireland.

The one thing I agree with in the RIAI statement is that 500 potential registrants is a small number, and in terms of generating the revenue required to establish and maintain a Register, it's a big ask, particularly in the first 5 years. A Statutory Register is a significantly more complicated beast than a membership list or a voluntary register such as is in place at present. It is a means to allow (or prevent) Irish and International AT's to practice within the legislative and regulatory framework of the state, and therefore requires a significant legal framework in place to allow it to function.

I also believe that it will be some time before we hit the 500 mark. There are 240 on the ATR, with another 70 or so waiting in the wings via expressions of intent. Of that 240, I'd guess that many of these are already Chartered, and paying Membership fees, and therefore included on the ATR free of charge. The RIAI Register of Architects operates in the same way - your registration fee includes your RIAI membersip if you want it, if you don't it's the same price - just no magazine and letters and CPD reminders etc. If this were to be the case for AT's - very little additional revenue will be generated once a Register is established = strain on current revenue streams.

Those 240 ATR registrants are probably the best indicator of the pace of registration in the event of the development of a Statutory Register. It will be slow to get off the ground. The issue of registration is not as important to many RIAI Techs, simply because they are employed rather than self-employed, so by the time you exclude dual memberships, and those who don't need to register from any RIAI membership that might cross over, I'd suggest you might hit 350 if you're lucky in the first year, and this would depend on those who have had to register already with CIOB/CABE and SCSI 'coming home' to an AT Register.
Add to that the pace of entry of new graduates, and we're looking at a slow burn - allow 2 years minimum post graduation experience, and you're looking at probably 3 years minimum after the establishment of a Register before there's a stream of new entrants, and that's allowing that all current courses meet the necessary educational standard for admission.

The support for CIAT shown on this and other forums doesn't seem to be reflected in the numbers on the register. Perhaps this would change if a Statutory Register were in place, who knows ?.

I'd love to hear the CIAT take on any proposed 'RiaiEXIT' ?

20161116

We won't have long to wait and see now but if the RIAI run true to form they will burn AT's again. I hope that does happen because then maybe - just maybe - AT's will shake off the Stockholm Syndrome and finally see through the decades old pretence that this body has an inclination to represent our best interests.

The worst thing to happen imo will be if RIAI membership do vote to register AT's beacuse then sadly AT's will continue to swallow the pretence that they are there to serve our interests. They are not now nor have they ever been. If the RIAI vote to register us it will be for the sole purpose of containing us.

The kindest thing the RIAI can do is to back off now for good and maybe in time enough of us will join CIAT in enough numbers and eventualy our true potential will be championed

BryanF

sydthebeat wrote: »

?? not quite sure what you mean here bryan

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Seriously?

Tongue was firmly in cheak.

I just liked the magic beans anology. The riai have been waving these 'beans' at AT's since I was in college!

Enough is enough.

Bazlyons

Anyone see the statement from the RIAI on the 22 December?
They will support an AT Register for AT’s to act as ancillary certifiers only.

That should put the nail in the coffin for any technologist joining the RIAI. They have explicitly stated now they do not consider Technologists as equals but subservient to Architects.

The CIAT is now the only actual representative body for Architectural Technologists in Ireland. The RIAI only want to control not to represent.

Link to statement (hopefully it works)

http://mailchi.mp/riai.ie/riai-statement-of-support-for-architectural-technologist-members?e=9dbc9bce9c

nmg_ire

I actually read the statement last week and never realised they said ancillary certifier.
Its a kick in the teeth. Some Architects basically wanting AT's to do the work and that's it.
I'll not be renewing with RIAI.

DvB

At least its out in the open now. Why any AT would want the RIAI to protect their interests now is beyond me. The CIAT are the only show in town if AT's want to realistically become assigned certifier's & its pretty clear rowing in behind them from here on in is the only way to go.

TSQ

I am looking for an architectural technician in the Carlow/kilkenny catchment area. Either independent operative or employed by an engineering or architectural practice. Where would I find a register of ATs practicing in this area and/or can I get some recommendations.
Thanks

ciathkenny

Hi Guys


I am a chartered architectural technologist who’s been working in the UK for a few years but am moving back to Ireland in the near future.

I was hoping to do my own thing or at least part time but it seems the RIAI have not changed a bit they have always disregarded AT’s, RIBA Iin the UK have at least embraced the CIAT.

My main question is if I want to run my own jobs and sign of payments and compliance certs do I need to join another professional body?

And so which one is best? Do I need to upskill to join them or is my MIT and relevant work experience enough?

I am assuming I should join the ATR anyway for a start.

Thanking you in advance?

Ciath

BryanF

Ciath
Suggest you contact the rics

Charliebull

ciathkenny wrote: »

Hi Guys


I am a chartered architectural technologist who’s been working in the UK for a few years but am moving back to Ireland in the near future.

I was hoping to do my own thing or at least part time but it seems the RIAI have not changed a bit they have always disregarded AT’s, RIBA Iin the UK have at least embraced the CIAT.

My main question is if I want to run my own jobs and sign of payments and compliance certs do I need to join another professional body?

And so which one is best? Do I need to upskill to join them or is my MIT and relevant work experience enough?

I am assuming I should join the ATR anyway for a start.

Thanking you in advance?

Ciath

in order to act as assigned certifier you will need to be a registered Building Surveyor with the RICS

To get registered you will need to first become a member of CABE

Lavish

The debate is very useful. I have found information related to my interest here.

Downloaded

Charliebull wrote: »

in order to act as assigned certifier you will need to be a registered Building Surveyor with the RICS

To get registered you will need to first become a member of CABE

Do you know anyone or have first hand experience of anyone who has successfully achieved registration with the RICS via CABE via CIAT route?

How difficult is it, if even possible?

rj01

Contact James in ciat (manages membership) and he will assist. Cabe, ciat and rics(scsi) recognise each other’s qualifications etc so my route was to become a chartered member of ciat, then apply to become a chartered member of cabe and then the scsi accepted my registration as a building surveyor. Crazy, time consuming and expensive but what you need to do to be able to practice what you’re qualified to do in Ireland.

Downloaded

rj01 wrote: »

Contact James in ciat (manages membership) and he will assist. Cabe, ciat and rics(scsi) recognise each other’s qualifications etc so my route was to become a chartered member of ciat, then apply to become a chartered member of cabe and then the scsi accepted my registration as a building surveyor. Crazy, time consuming and expensive but what you need to do to be able to practice what you’re qualified to do in Ireland.

Thanks rj01 - Do you have to become a member of the RICS first in the UK and then apply for SCSI for ROI recognition?

rj01

No I didn't. As I understand it, by extension the RICS agreement of recognition with CIAT & CABE extends to the SCSI in Ireland. I am now a chartered AT, Chartered Building Engineer and registered Building Surveyor and have to pay annually to maintain those chartered memberships to continue being recognised and then you have the annual registration fee on top. James Banks in CIAT will assist you with your chartered application to CIAT which involved a portfolio (demonstrating how your past experience & training fulfills an ATs competencies) and interview, the CABE involved a similar portfolio (demonstrating how your past experience & training fulfills their BuildEng competencies) with the application and the SCSI registration also required a detailed application form (demonstrating how your past experience & training fulfills their BuildSurv competencies). Once you complete the AT Chartership, you will have most of the work complete as its a matter if emphaising the BE & BS elements of your CIAT portfolio to CABE & SCSI. Best of luck

nmglky

rj01, Can i ask how long ago you went through this process?
I have been a member with the CIAT for a few years and decided last year to get CABE and SCSI membership.
CABE was no problem at all however the SCSI turned me down saying I should look into doing a surveying course or work under a surveyor.
I really thought I had covered the surveying element well with my experience.

charlie2018

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116065751#Comment_116065751

Hi would you share some information of the process during the RICS application ? please

charlie2018

Hi All

I am a CIAT and CABE member would like to meet up with any AT's (CIAT members) in Dublin.