The Links Thread

davegilly

St Annes can be had for €25 in an open competition in August. Baltray has a scratch cup for €60 in August. And Portmarnock can be played for €150 as a GUI member. €235 total.

Nonsense deal. And I knew it would be ninsense when there was no mention of the price in the email, you had to go looking for it. The marketing team in Portmarnock and the rest could do with a few lessons on how to sell something nobody really needs.

bustercherry

davegilly wrote: »

St Annes can be had for €25 in an open competition in August. Baltray has a scratch cup for €60 in August. And Portmarnock can be played for €150 as a GUI member. €235 total.

Nonsense deal. And I knew it would be ninsense when there was no mention of the price in the email, you had to go looking for it. The marketing team in Portmarnock and the rest could do with a few lessons on how to sell something nobody really needs.

So what? It's not Royal Dublin and not much more of a step up from Corballis too.

FixdePitchmark

bustercherry wrote: »

So what? It's not Royal Dublin and not much more of a step up from Corballis too.

True - in fairness it is not that easy to get a cheap round in Royal Dublin - But I think I might have seen it for 80/90 , early bird - but was 3/4 years ago.

davegilly

bustercherry wrote: »

So what? It's not Royal Dublin and not much more of a step up from Corballis too.

My mistake - should have checked Royal Dublin. The fulcrum of my argument still stands though. Nonsense deal.

Benicetomonty

No clue what kind of market theyre after. GUI members are shrewd enough to know Baltray and R Dublin can be had for no more than 100e each, and much less if youve reached single figures (Scratch Cup in Baltray, John Lumsden memorial in Royaler). In peak season, no less.

Good luck to anybody who pays the 350e. I suppose management at Portmarnock mustve seen some of ye comin'!

Ally McIntosh

Looking forward to them all going back up to full price so you’ll have nothing left to complain about.

Up until two weeks ago, the mid-week prices (Monday to Thursday only) were:

Portmarnock = €250
Baltray = €165
Royal Dublin = €160

Total = €575

Perhaps they won’t get many takers at €350, perhaps they will.

ShivasIrons

I would really like to buy an Aston Martin. I think they're wildly overpriced though, especially if I compare them to the price of Fords.



Oh wait, there's one available in a dealer in Lime Regis, how ever it's purple, has no extras and has a one litre engine, and it's the price of a ford but it can be only bought when there's a blue moon in August.


Here sir, there's your Aston Martin, but I wanted a Vanquish in silver, with all the extras, 5 litre engine. If I shout loudly enough on the internet, will Aston Martin start selling those ones at Ford prices?


All the people looking for discounted rates, mean that they want to play wherever they want, whenever they want at a price they pick. And then give out when there's restrictions attached to a discount.

FixdePitchmark

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

Looking forward to them all going back up to full price so you’ll have nothing left to complain about.

Up until two weeks ago, the mid-week prices (Monday to Thursday only) were:

Portmarnock = €250
Baltray = €165
Royal Dublin = €160

Total = €575

Perhaps they won’t get many takers at €350, perhaps they will.

You do know there is a global pandemic at present. (obviously)

All these course had a model based on charging whatever Americans wanted to pay.

The Irish know the Irish market more than places who had no interest in the Irish.

About 250 feels right - but that is my opinion. But I know the market fairly well.

They have placed themselves at the highest point possible.

Benicetomonty

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I would really like to buy an Aston Martin. I think they're wildly overpriced though, especially if I compare them to the price of Fords.



Oh wait, there's one available in a dealer in Lime Regis, how ever it's purple, has no extras and has a one litre engine, and it's the price of a ford but it can be only bought when there's a blue moon in August.


Here sir, there's your Aston Martin, but I wanted a Vanquish in silver, with all the extras, 5 litre engine. If I shout loudly enough on the internet, will Aston Martin start selling those ones at Ford prices?


All the people looking for discounted rates, mean that they want to play wherever they want, whenever they want at a price they pick. And then give out when there's restrictions attached to a discount.

The 'discounted rates' have been forced. Which means they arent actually discounted at all; indeed, they will, in all likelihood, be the standard rates going forward, certainly through the autumn and probably the winter also, as our blue chip links clubs desperately attempt to claw back some of the many euros of revenue they have and will continue to lose during this pandemic. They will be reduced further, overtly or otherwise if the current prices fail to attract the intended numbers.

That they needed to be forced to drop their rates to allow the GUI community, competent, amateur golfers, access to their courses sticks in my craw. Most especially because certain clubs could have afforded to do it for decades and made zero effort to offer any incentive to locals. Portmarnock is the number 1 offender. Unlike Louth, Lahinch, RCD, The Island, Waterville etc, in my 20 years of playing amateur golf up to Senior Cup Level, I have never once seen them host a fully open competition or offer a sub 100e playing rate. That the new rates are, in my view, uninviting, is just my opinion but Id be very curious to find out how many golfers in Ireland have paid or would be willing to pay 100e or more for a round around Portmarnock or anywhere else in the country. My guess is, not many.

Your Aston Martin analogy is a poor one. The average gui club member doesnt contemplate buying them. Playing 18 holes on a field , no matter how manicured, is a much more modest aspiration.

thewobbler

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I would really like to buy an Aston Martin. I think they're wildly overpriced though, especially if I compare them to the price of Fords.



Oh wait, there's one available in a dealer in Lime Regis, how ever it's purple, has no extras and has a one litre engine, and it's the price of a ford but it can be only bought when there's a blue moon in August.


Here sir, there's your Aston Martin, but I wanted a Vanquish in silver, with all the extras, 5 litre engine. If I shout loudly enough on the internet, will Aston Martin start selling those ones at Ford prices?


All the people looking for discounted rates, mean that they want to play wherever they want, whenever they want at a price they pick. And then give out when there's restrictions attached to a discount.

As mentioned in my previous post, I would tend to support the stance of the famous links in terms of pricing and exclusivity.

But your Aston Martin post doesn’t make any sense. Aston Martin can charge a premium because there are always people are willing to pay it.

Take a look at portmarnock’s BRS for August. Throughout midweek, it’s empty. Such things wouldn’t bother them if the taken slots were housed by people paying e270 a go. But that’s not the case at present.

Which is why they’ve been dreaming up offers.

The problem for them, which they’re about to learn, is that Portmarnock at e150 is a more attractive deal by itself than one for Portmarnock, Royal Dublin and Louth at e350, payable up front and must be consumed by 24 September.

I mean no disrespect to Royal Dublin, but it’s not a bucket list course. Co Louth is higher up that chart, and I know the golf traditionalists adore it, but for whatever reason, it doesn’t catch the general public’s attention like others in the Irish top 20.

——

That’s a long way around me saying something like: charge what you like folks, and I’ll support your decision. But don’t call something an offer unless it adds to the attraction.

FixdePitchmark

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The 'discounted rates' have been forced. Which means they arent actually discounted at all; indeed, they will, in all likelihood, be the standard rates going forward, certainly through the autumn and probably the winter also, as our blue chip links clubs desperately attempt to claw back some of the many euros of revenue they have and will continue to lose during this pandemic. They will be reduced further, overtly or otherwise if the current prices fail to attract the intended numbers.

That they needed to be forced to drop their rates to allow the GUI community, competent, amateur golfers, access to their courses sticks in my craw. Most especially because certain clubs could have afforded to do it for decades and made zero effort to offer any incentive to locals. Portmarnock is the number 1 offender. Unlike Louth, Lahinch, RCD, The Island, Waterville etc, in my 20 years of playing amateur golf up to Senior Cup Level, I have never once seen them host a fully open competition or offer a sub 100e playing rate. That the new rates are, in my view, uninviting, is just my opinion but Id be very curious to find out how many golfers in Ireland have paid or would be willing to pay 100e or more for a round around Portmarnock or anywhere else in the country. My guess is, not many.

Your Aston Martin analogy is a poor one. The average gui club member doesnt contemplate buying them. Playing 18 holes on a field , no matter how manicured, is a much more modest aspiration.

Your posts on this stuff are brilliant. (I know I go too far )

Fundamentally the people who protest about this are interested in maintaining the status quo.

We all know that Portmarnock and Royal Dublin are very dated and simply do not fit in with modern society.

Not sure they are a good fit for Baltray to be honest - Co Louth is a genuine middle class , upwardly mobile rural club. If you rang the pro any day of the week in Baltray he would sort you out. The other two - :rolleyes: you would be lucky to get past the heavy barrier without a tough look of disdain.

There should be honesty about this on an online forum - The two main offenders do not want anyone near them - and I'm a bit disappointed that they are out with the begging bowl after one tough season.

Is it not the ethos of Church of Ireland, Freemasons , secret societies, Royal Families - to be prudent, to consider the alternatives, to be frugal.

They would want to get their act together. Before it all falls apart.

Ally McIntosh

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You do know there is a global pandemic at present. (obviously)

All these course had a model based on charging whatever Americans wanted to pay.

The Irish know the Irish market more than places who had no interest in the Irish.

About 250 feels right - but that is my opinion. But I know the market fairly well.

They have placed themselves at the highest point possible.

And more than likely the members will fill those voids by paying significant levies.

If each of these clubs were trying to maximise revenue alone, then sure, they might have to feel around for the right price point to fill the gap. But I suspect each of them wants to keep some element of privilege for their members rather than race to the bottom and fill their timesheet with 20,000 rounds at 50 quid only to devalue their course for years to come.

There is a lot of bitterness about top clubs.

I don’t like the fact that green fees at all first and second tier clubs have increased exponentially over the last 30 years. I don’t like that it takes golf away from the everyman. But increases in Ireland have actually been less than in England or Scotland and we still have a number of excellent courses that can be sampled for €80 or less. Portmarnock or RCD are no different to Muirfield or Royal St George’s: Old, traditional clubs that are primarily for members and their guests and who supplement their income by offering limited rounds to visitors at premium rates. That is their product. It is a very different product to Old Head or St Andrews (to name two) which although poles apart, are based on visitor play.

Ally McIntosh

No the bitterness is not justified.

And the €20 per year you pay to have “GUI status” has no relationship to whether clubs hold Opens or not.

One thing is for sure: The last couple of hundred posts in this thread seem to have done nothing to change anyone’s opinion. Positions are entrenched. We need a John Hume.

mike12

They would have been better off go for 2 big hits and host a couple of 4 person team events @100 per head.
Portmarnock would fill the place for the day rather than 2 balls here and there at 150.

Might have played the 3 for 350 if it had been some sort of competition

Raisins

I don’t think portmarnock are worried that some golfers are angry they’re too expensive. Is that not a major part of the exercise in the first place? As a golf course Royal Dublin is having a laugh pretending it’s in the same company as the top links courses.

They’re as equally out of touch with their membership policies in these places. I’m glad in a way because it makes not playing them an easy decision.

For €365 you can play Tralee, Ballybunion Old, European, and Rosses Point.

blue note

I imagine the €350 offer was a company coming to them with a proposal and they all said fine. The booking company probably get a small commission and the clubs get the bulk of the fees. Then it's a win win for them, if it gets a few extra people in he gates then great.

I am surprised at Portmarnock doing it though. I'd have thought an offer like that would have been beneath them.

And on reputation I wouldn't be bothering with royal Dublin. I wonder did they try to get the European or the island first.

Benicetomonty

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

And more than likely the members will fill those voids by paying significant levies.

If each of these clubs were trying to maximise revenue alone, then sure, they might have to feel around for the right price point to fill the gap. But I suspect each of them wants to keep some element of privilege for their members rather than race to the bottom and fill their timesheet with 20,000 rounds at 50 quid only to devalue their course for years to come.

There is a lot of bitterness about top clubs.

I don’t like the fact that green fees at all first and second tier clubs have increased exponentially over the last 30 years. I don’t like that it takes golf away from the everyman. But increases in Ireland have actually been less than in England or Scotland and we still have a number of excellent courses that can be sampled for €80 or less. Portmarnock or RCD are no different to Muirfield or Royal St George’s: Old, traditional clubs that are primarily for members and their guests and who supplement their income by offering limited rounds to visitors at premium rates. That is their product. It is a very different product to Old Head or St Andrews (to name two) which although poles apart, are based on visitor play.

I dont buy the 'devaluation' arguement. Ballybunion has hosted opens every year to gui members at v reasonable rates (I played both courses for 50e in their 2013 scratch cup) and it is probably still the golf course that Americans want to play the most in the entire Republic. No devaluation there.

As Mike says, it doesnt have to be wall to wall but hosting an open event or two would do zero to hurt the image of a club and everything to enhance its reputation. The illusion of exclusivity can be manufactured if necessary, as R Dublin have done with the Lumsden event

Portmarnock will be in a particularly interesting situation going forwards as regards its appeal for tourists. It is likely the Amateur Championship may well be the last high profile championship they will host for the forseeable future owing to their membership policies and the Irish Open certainly wont be returning any time soon for the same reason. Whilst it is well established in the psyche of potential visitors as a must play venue, it doesnt have the aura or mystique that a Tralee or an Enniscrone does, and has, imo, been more dependent on tv coverage through the 80s and 90s than most Irish tracks, where it was broadcast in all its glory into the homes of foreigners who were subsequently able to cop that you could play arguably better courses in Ireland for far more reasonable rates than would have been required to set foot on an Open rota venue.

That marketing avenue has now dried up, and whilst they will continue to hold an attraction for deep pocketed visitors, it will be increasingly word of mouth that determines what courses the next generation of American golf tourist will be seeking to play, as more and more of their elders come home with their experiences of golf in Ireland. This will, I believe, result in a subtle shift away from the east coast. The golf is better and cheaper and the weather equally unreliable, so why wouldnt you go North, West or South?

All of which means our east coast links will need to make themselves more attractive to the domestic market. The reduced rates and golf passes are going to be here for the next year and probably well beyond. The other option is for members to start shelling out some substantial levies. I dont know what the Portmarnock sub is. But I do know what it is in Ballybunion because my uncle is a member. And what they take in in subs isnt enough to cover maintenence of 2 championship links, the clubhouse and the continuous upgrading and works they carry out on a yearly basis. Id wager the Portmarnock sub is equally insufficient to keep things there exactly as they are for very long. That means there is a reliance on tourism, foreign ideally, domestic if necessary. And I will predict, once again, that what they are offering currently as a GUI 'special' rate will not prove sufficiently attractive to a majority of Irish golfers.

Whiplash85

It is all about accessibility. Cork and Shannon airports are in very precarious positions now which could mean that we just have one main travel hub in Ireland. Getting to these courses on west coast can be a challenge in itself too on a good day.

DuckSlice

At the end of this year I will have played 5 Links courses in Ireland.

Old Head - 130
Portrush - 150 (Open Comp)
Castlerock - 60 (GUI Rate)
Strandhill - 30 (Open Week)
Carne - 27 Holes. - 50

Total 420.

That to me is much better value than 350 for 3 courses.

Whether something is good value or not is down to the individual. For me its not good value especially with the travel involved in playing them for me. if it was 250 for the 3 then I would look into it, but the fact it has to be used within 6/7 weeks is a disaster.

mighty magpie

Castlerock have several open days at £25 coming up.

DuckSlice

mighty magpie wrote: »

Castlerock have several open days at £25 coming up.

Unfortunately I'm 4 hours away so playing it the day after we play Portrush. Might just double check if there is one on that day.

RoadRunner

Whiplash85 wrote: »

It is all about accessibility. Cork and Shannon airports are in very precarious positions now which could mean that we just have one main travel hub in Ireland. Getting to these courses on west coast can be a challenge in itself too on a good day.

The wild atlantic way has been very successful. People want to go west. Tour companies go west. Click both short vids below. You only get 'the tingles' from one of them. Good marketing or something else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONyxV38yp8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWu2TmZSNHc

FixdePitchmark

Probably talked to death.

To summarize for me.

Still too expensive relative to the current market.
Just hold an open rather than this convoluted offer.
It is going to take a bit more to improve relationship with GUI golfers.

Will be interesting to see how things progress over next few months as we enter the end of summer season.

I can go down today and play Royal Dublin for 115 - so why would you bother being tied into a 3 course deal , with a solid deadline. And I'd imagine the 115 will drop also.

At about 250 - you would have considered such a deal.

350 is serious wedge for most - at this time, in one go.

Sultan_of_Ping

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Probably talked to death.

To summarize for me.

Still too expensive relative to the current market.
Just hold an open rather than this convoluted offer.
It is going to take a bit more to improve relationship with GUI golfers.

Will be interesting to see how things progress over next few months as we enter the end of summer season.

I can go down today and play Royal Dublin for 115 - so why would you bother being tied into a 3 course deal , with a solid deadline. And I'd imagine the 115 will drop also.

At about 250 - you would have considered such a deal.

350 is serious wedge for most - at this time, in one go.

Will be interesting to see into next year, if there are still restrictions in place, how their prices might go.

I'd imagine they are well resourced in terms of reserves etc but they'd also have a significant overhead to maintain the course quality so there may well be an economic imperative to get a bit more real on their pricing.

As an aside, I played The Island recently as a guest and the member I was playing with mentioned they are "canvassing for members" - who'd have thought it!! Joining fee is "only" €10k - which, when you compare it to some of the idiotic joining fees being sought in the prevvious boom, is an absolute steal......

.......I'll freely admit to doing some mental arithmetic on the way home and having a hypothetical discussion with herself on raiding the savings :D:D

mike12

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Will be interesting to see into next year, if there are still restrictions in place, how their prices might go.

I'd imagine they are well resourced in terms of reserves etc but they'd also have a significant overhead to maintain the course quality so there may well be an economic imperative to get a bit more real on their pricing.

As an aside, I played The Island recently as a guest and the member I was playing with mentioned they are "canvassing for members" - who'd have thought it!! Joining fee is "only" €10k - which, when you compare it to some of the idiotic joining fees being sought in the prevvious boom, is an absolute steal......

.......I'll freely admit to doing some mental arithmetic on the way home and having a hypothetical discussion with herself on raiding the savings :D:D

Do they allow you to spread that over a number of years?

frink

mike12 wrote: »

Do they allow you to spread that over a number of years?

I was considering joining The Island last year and they offered me a Temporary Membership. You pay €1,000 each year on top of annual sub for up to 5 years. After this 5 years you have the option then to join as a full member and pay the difference to the €10,000.

I am not sure if you then have to pay the full difference in one go or not. It is a decent option if you considering it.

Sultan_of_Ping

mike12 wrote: »

Do they allow you to spread that over a number of years?

Not sure - but I hope not, otherwise it might be just too tempting to resist

I'm also not sure how "connected" you need to be to club - I got the impression they were putting it out there by word of mouth to see what interest there was.

Annual sub is about €1600 - which is more than I'm paying now but for a course like that, I thought it was great value.

Ally McIntosh

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I dont buy the 'devaluation' arguement. Ballybunion has hosted opens every year to gui members at v reasonable rates (I played both courses for 50e in their 2013 scratch cup) and it is probably still the golf course that Americans want to play the most in the entire Republic. No devaluation there.

As Mike says, it doesnt have to be wall to wall but hosting an open event or two would do zero to hurt the image of a club and everything to enhance its reputation. The illusion of exclusivity can be manufactured if necessary, as R Dublin have done with the Lumsden event

Portmarnock will be in a particularly interesting situation going forwards as regards its appeal for tourists. It is likely the Amateur Championship may well be the last high profile championship they will host for the forseeable future owing to their membership policies and the Irish Open certainly wont be returning any time soon for the same reason. Whilst it is well established in the psyche of potential visitors as a must play venue, it doesnt have the aura or mystique that a Tralee or an Enniscrone does, and has, imo, been more dependent on tv coverage through the 80s and 90s than most Irish tracks, where it was broadcast in all its glory into the homes of foreigners who were subsequently able to cop that you could play arguably better courses in Ireland for far more reasonable rates than would have been required to set foot on an Open rota venue.

That marketing avenue has now dried up, and whilst they will continue to hold an attraction for deep pocketed visitors, it will be increasingly word of mouth that determines what courses the next generation of American golf tourist will be seeking to play, as more and more of their elders come home with their experiences of golf in Ireland. This will, I believe, result in a subtle shift away from the east coast. The golf is better and cheaper and the weather equally unreliable, so why wouldnt you go North, West or South?

All of which means our east coast links will need to make themselves more attractive to the domestic market. The reduced rates and golf passes are going to be here for the next year and probably well beyond. The other option is for members to start shelling out some substantial levies. I dont know what the Portmarnock sub is. But I do know what it is in Ballybunion because my uncle is a member. And what they take in in subs isnt enough to cover maintenence of 2 championship links, the clubhouse and the continuous upgrading and works they carry out on a yearly basis. Id wager the Portmarnock sub is equally insufficient to keep things there exactly as they are for very long. That means there is a reliance on tourism, foreign ideally, domestic if necessary. And I will predict, once again, that what they are offering currently as a GUI 'special' rate will not prove sufficiently attractive to a majority of Irish golfers.

You make some good points but I think miss the mark with others.

Ballybunion - through Herbert Warren Wind and then Tom Watson - marketed themselves brilliantly for the American travelling golfer 30 or 40 years ago. They are setup primarily for visitors. This setup is to the detriment of members and it is virtually impossible to get a summer tee-time at short notice. The few Opens they hold allow some Irish visitors the chance to play it (if they are quick enough to book). The fact they do this may enhance their reputation amongst posters on here but has no effect on their wider reputation, their bank balance or their future marketing potential.

For arguments sake, let’s say Portmarnock go another twenty years without holding a major tournament. Its reputation will then sit on its history and its world ranking as much as anything else. Its ranking will depend on whether the next generation of raters take their time to understand the course or whether they will succumb to the social media quick hit of dramatic photographs of dunes and blowout bunkers.

The south-west is (or was) saturated. The east will remain appealing because of Dublin and accessibility. The north-west is clearly the untapped market for foreign golf tourism.

None of the above has anything to do with whether a course holds Opens for GUI members. Opens don’t help with revenue for these clubs.

All of these pages continue to be about people being mildly annoyed that there seems no avenue for them to play a course at a figure less than €100. Because of this, they seem to be wishing harm on clubs who don’t bend to their will, in some cases hoping they fail. Maybe they will fail. And then they can rejoice that the establishment has been brought to its knees, more than likely harming the overall Irish golf market in the process. (Incidentally, these good deals for visitors are being demanded as members - if media reports are true - are being asked to pay €5k levies)

Aside from that, I do like the idea of great clubs offering something back to the community. But if it were up to me, I’d be offering Open days to charities and those living locally before I’d be offering GUI Opens.

PARlance

Great thread even though things have been repeated. I've certainly adjusted some views from it.

The amazing thing is that Portmarnock's policy on women members has barely got a mention on here, yet there's a lot of talk about opens, openness, inclusion etc.

Predominantly male golfer's on a golf forum wanting things from their point of view, annoyed with a golf club doing things from its point of view. The two don't align in general, in this case. Maybe we needed a few more boys named Sue.

Pay the €150 if you've a real itch. Wait for a further reduction if you think it's coming, or just get over it Sue. Let's not fool ourselves with any claims of seeking openness/opens or wanting to be one happy GUI family etc.

If Enniscrone could get an entrance fee and 2k a year sub from its members... and have a queue of Yanks Mon-Fri, I wouldn't be able to get an open there next week for €35. Clubs are open for money, not for any higher cause.

I got the opportunity to play Portmarnock before and jumped at it. I was left a bit.... flat, by it compared to other top end links. Maybe the finer details of the course were lost on me. I also had no qualms about the finer details of its membership policy when teeing it up either.

We're extremely lucky on this island that only a couple of courses seem out of reach to the general golfing community.

FixdePitchmark

Asking for a friend.

It is ok to like blow out bunkers and the big dramatic dunes ?