Agent trying to change terms and increase rent five months after tenancy start

on_my_oe

We rent an apartment through an agency; the apartment was repossessed prior to us moving in, and the agency is appointed on behalf of the receivers. The property is an asset of the developers.
The agreement was for an initial six month term, which is not yet up. The agent contacted us to tell us that we need to relinquish one of our two car parks, as apparently one of them belongs to another apartment but the rent was agreed on the basis of two car parks.
The agent then said we could keep the car park until the end of our six months; when I asked what would happen if we extend, he told me it would continue with one car park and our rent would be reviewed 'as rents have gone up'. I did say I didn't think he could review the rent upwards until we had been living there a year, but he got a bit shirty.
I'm trying to be reasonable as car parks don't necessarily appear out of nowhere, but I took the apartment based on two car parks. There are other residents renting out their car parks and I would be happy to rent a Carpark privately providing the cost was deducted from our rent, but I don't think he's going to agree to this.
My understanding is that we can exercise part four, and the agreement can't be varied (eg two car parks) with no rent review until 12 months, but am I wrong?

dudara

Does your rental agreement list two car spaces?

on_my_oe

It does.

We do have SMS saying there are two car parks as well.

Icepick

If they take one from you, the rent should go down. In would be illegal to increase it.

ballyharpat

If your initial lease was for 6 months, I believe they can raise the rent and they can take a parking space as it is not theirs to offer. But, because it is a 6 month lease, you can choose to move at the end of your term-(6 months) in 1 months time.

djimi

Rent can only increase once in a 12 month period. Tell them to come back to you in 7 months and youll talk.

Most apartments only have one car parking space. However, if your lease states that you are renting two then that is what you are entitled to expect. If they are going to reduce this to one then its not at all unreasonable to expect the rent to come down. Have a look on Daft and gauge the cost of a car parking space in your area, but I dont think €50-€100 a month is unreasonable, depending on your area.

djimi

ballyharpat wrote: »

If your initial lease was for 6 months, I believe they can raise the rent and they can take a parking space as it is not theirs to offer. But, because it is a 6 month lease, you can choose to move at the end of your term-(6 months) in 1 months time.

They cant. Rents can only be reviewed once in a 12 month period, regardless of the lease type or when it expires.

ballyharpat

If I was a landlord and I wanted to raise rent-as long as it was relative to the area prices, I would say at the end of 6 months, your lease is up-you have to move out, and I believe I would be within my rights to do this-just throwing this out there as to what could be done??

Penny Tration

ballyharpat wrote: »

If I was a landlord and I wanted to raise rent-as long as it was relative to the area prices, I would say at the end of 6 months, your lease is up-you have to move out, and I believe I would be within my rights to do this-just throwing this out there as to what could be done??

Once the tenant has been there for six months, a part 4 tenancy is in place. Under terms of a part 4, thw tenants cannot be kicked out for refusing a rent increase.

djimi

ballyharpat wrote: »

If I was a landlord and I wanted to raise rent-as long as it was relative to the area prices, I would say at the end of 6 months, your lease is up-you have to move out, and I believe I would be within my rights to do this-just throwing this out there as to what could be done??

You would be very wrong.

downwithit

I think he would be within his rights to raise the rent. I believe it can be raised once in a 12 month period but nothing says it has to be at the 12 month stage, as original term was six months terms can be amended at that stage

dinnyirwin

Im not even going to get into the lease and raising the rent thing. There is just so much misinformation around on the internet about that that you will never win an argument about it on the internet. The way you find out the truth about this is you ask the PRTB - not threshhold - YOURSELF. And make sure to ask them to send it to you IN WRITING as they have a habit of making things up too. Getting it in writing from them ensures that they have had to look it up and not taken it off the top of their head.

wrt the parking space. If your lease states 2 parking spaces and you dont get two parking spaces you are perfectly entitled to extract yourself from that lease and move out.

the world wonders

downwithit wrote: »

I think he would be within his rights to raise the rent. I believe it can be raised once in a 12 month period but nothing says it has to be at the 12 month stage, as original term was six months terms can be amended at that stage

You are wrong.

dinnyirwin wrote: »

The way you find out the truth about this is you ask the PRTB - not threshhold - YOURSELF. And make sure to ask them to send it to you IN WRITING as they have a habit of making things up too. Getting it in writing from them ensures that they have had to look it up and not taken it off the top of their head.

Or you could not waste the PRTB's time and just read what the Residential Tenancies Act says for yourself.

mdebets

the world wonders wrote: »

You are wrong.Or you could not waste the PRTB's time and just read what the Residential Tenancies Act says for yourself.

I don't think it's as clear cut as you think it is.
Under Subsection (3)

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 Section 20 wrote:

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply despite the fact that a period of less than 12 months has elapsed from—
(a) the last review of the rent under the tenancy, or
(b) the commencement of the tenancy,
if, in that period—
(i) a substantial change in the nature of the accommodation provided under the tenancy occurs, and
(ii) the rent under the tenancy, were it to be set immediately after that change, would, by virtue of that change, be different to what was the market rent for the tenancy at the time of that last review or the commencement of the tenancy, as the case may be.

you could argue, that the change of the number of car parking spaces might be a substantial change, which would allow for a rent review.
So it might be better, to clear this up with the PRTB and see what their interpretation of this law is.

Thomas D

djimi wrote: »

They cant. Rents can only be reviewed once in a 12 month period, regardless of the lease type or when it expires.

In this situation they can.

djimi

mdebets wrote: »

you could argue, that the change of the number of car parking spaces might be a substantial change, which would allow for a rent review.
So it might be better, to clear this up with the PRTB and see what their interpretation of this law is.

A lot would depend on how the initial rent price compared to similar apartments which only have one parking space. If there was little or no difference to the price then this would not apply. If the OP was paying substantially more for the parking space, then this might apply.

Its a messy one. I would even question the validity of the lease overall, if the agency are not trying to change a fundemantal element of the tenancy (ie if the OP rented in good faith on the basis of the property having two parking spaces).

dinnyirwin

If the OP wants out of the lease they can get out.

If the OP wants a rent reduction they can ask for one, but if the landlord can rent the apartment with one space these days for the same rent, he wont have to reduce the rent. He can just say sorry, made a mistake with the two spaces, you now only have one, and thats it.

So if the landlord doesnt want to reduce the rent then the ops options are either
suck it up.
or move somewhere that has tow spaces.

djimi

What Id be interested to see is if the "substantial change in the nature of the accommodation provided" mentioned in the clause above would allow the landlord to make a substantial change for the worse to the property in order to trigger this clause and allow for a rent review to increase the rent. The tenants would have the argument that they rented the property with two parking spaces, and now that one of them have been denied from them they are finding themselves paying a higher rate of rent then they were before for a lesser property. Id be very interested to see how the PRTB would rule on this.

djimi

dinnyirwin wrote: »

He can just say sorry, made a mistake with the two spaces, you now only have one, and thats it.

This is the part that I doubt they would get away with. "Oops sorry I made a mistake" is not really likely to cut it when it comes to a signed legal contract.

dinnyirwin

djimi wrote: »

This is the part that I doubt they would get away with. "Oops sorry I made a mistake" is not really likely to cut it when it comes to a signed legal contract.

Its not getting away with anything. Its a mistake.
If you are not happy with the mistake you can break your lease. (terminate the signed legal contract)
But there is no way you can use it to force the landlord to reduce the rent if he doesnt want to.

You can ask him and he might, but he doesnt have to.

djimi

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Its not getting away with anything. Its a mistake.
If you are not happy with the mistake you can break your lease. (terminate the signed legal contract)
But there is no way you can use it to force the landlord to reduce the rent if he doesnt want to.

You can ask him and he might, but he doesnt have to.

Its not a mistake though; by the sounds of it they took money to rent out a parking space that they had no right to rent out. Genuine error or not, its not just a case of saying suck it up and get on with it.

Like I said, Id be interested to see if the PRTB would consider this situation a reasonable reason for the landlord to trigger an upward rent review, considering they were in the wrong with the initial lease.

Thomas D

The tenancy ends in a month. The landlord can charge what he likes.

djimi

Thomas D wrote: »

The tenancy ends in a month. The landlord can charge what he likes.

The tenancy does not end in a month. The signed lease expires in a month. Its not the same thing.

Thomas D

djimi wrote: »

The tenancy does not end in a month. The signed lease expires in a month. Its not the same thing.

It is in this case. Landlord can tell them to take it or leave it when he advertises for a new tenancy.

djimi

Thomas D wrote: »

It is in this case. Landlord can tell them to take it or leave it when he advertises for a new tenancy.

The tenancy ends when the tenant hands back the keys. In this case the only question is whether the landlord can use the confusion over the parking spaces as a way to trigger a rent review; the tenancy will not end unless the tenant gives notice.

dinnyirwin

djimi wrote: »

Its not a mistake though; by the sounds of it they took money to rent out a parking space that they had no right to rent out. Genuine error or not, its not just a case of saying suck it up and get on with it.

Im afraid it is. Whether people like it or not.

djimi wrote: »

Like I said, Id be interested to see if the PRTB would consider this situation a reasonable reason for the landlord to trigger an upward rent review, considering they were in the wrong with the initial lease.

I think thats about as likely as Ireland winning the word cup
No point even discussing it. It aint gonna happen.

djimi

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Im afraid it is. Whether people like it or not.

I think thats about as likely as Ireland winning the word cup
No point even discussing it. It aint gonna happen.

Have you some experience with this particular scenario, or are you just giving an opinion? Because I would like to think that legally a landlord would not get away with saying "I made a mistake with the initial lease, but now Im going to use it as a way to circumnavigate tenancy law and hit you financially".

dinnyirwin

djimi wrote: »

Have you some experience with this particular scenario, or are you just giving an opinion? Because I would like to think that legally a landlord would not get away with saying "I made a mistake with the initial lease, but now Im going to use it as a way to circumnavigate tenancy law and hit you financially".

Yes I have some experience, but Im not going to share it as it just leads to arguments from uninformed people, who think they know things they actually dont. And its just not worth the hassle to be in that argument.

So if you want to find out yourself, you should do so by asking a solicitor or professional, whos opinion you trust about it. That is the best way for you to get your answers. You wont get them on message boards - at least none that you will believe is correct.
You are not going to see it tested with the PRTB any time soon.

djimi

dinnyirwin wrote: »

You are not going to see it tested with the PRTB any time soon.

I would like to think that in this case the OP would take a case and let the PRTB have their say on this matter. Or at least make a phonecall to them and see what they have to say. Because to me, this is far from clear cut. I can understand where the property has changed for the better then the landlord can seek an upward rent review. But where the property has changed for the worse? Id be letting the PRTB decide whether a rent increase is justified in this case, especially where it seems that mistakes were made with the initial lease to the tenants detriment.

Im not offering advice on how I think it will play out; I am simply suggesting how I would handle this sitation if it were me.

dinnyirwin

I doubt in this case their rent will go up, but i certainly wouldnt expect it to go down either because of the loss of the parking space.

There are circumstances where the rent can be raised within 12 months of a previous raise which may happen here, but i doubt they will.

And no, im not going to discuss that. I have experience of it and also experience in another message board where it just got ugly with name calling and we arent going there.

murphaph

djimi wrote: »

Rent can only increase once in a 12 month period. Tell them to come back to you in 7 months and youll talk

The thing is they can just terminate at the end of the 6 months so it doesn't roll over into part 4.