Feminism and the emasculation of men

Smidge

lufties wrote: »

That video is probably from over 20 years ago...but no, Sean Connery is still alive, shur wasn't he crowned sexist man alive not a while back.

You're not too far wrong there

Also, its not that uncommon for men to sit to pee!
I know a fair few guys who do.

ppars

lufties wrote: »

That video is probably from over 20 years ago...but no, Sean Connery is still alive, shur wasn't he crowned sexiest man alive not a while back.

Pining for the good ole days ?

ppars

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Gender neutral means they are just toys - not 'girl' toys or 'boy' toys - just toys that come in colours other than pink/blue and can be played with without reference to what genitalia a child has...

WTF ??? Any chance of letting them just be kids for a few years ?

Obliq

ppars wrote: »

WTF ??? Any chance of letting them just be kids for a few years ?

Eh, I think that's what she meant?! As in, lets not force them into gender specific toy sections at the year dot.

It IS ridiculous - my 11 year old niece has gone full on goth already, having got sickened by the lack of any colour except pink. Now we have to shop for her in petite women's sizes.

Foxtrol

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How do you know the extremism is not being challenged?

You seem so certain.

I know it is because I am one of the people who challenges it and I suspect that I am far more plugged into the Global Feminist network than you.

If you mean it doesn't get reported in the general media or make headlines - that brings us back to what newspapers choose to report and how they choose to report it.

If you think often contentious dialogues don't take place within the broad spectrum of feminism you are very much mistaken. And we don't even need the threat of financial penalties like the Soccer clubs did...

It doesn’t get reported because there’s no effort made to do it in public. How many prominent feminists/feminist groups who regularly are well able to make the news on issues/topics they wish to highlight but stay very quiet when the extremists start their latest campaign? Saying nothing doesn’t give their approval of the campaigns but it also certainly doesn’t show their disapproval.

Internal dialogue within the broad spectrum of feminism means nothing if they don’t feel strongly enough to speak about it openly and loudly. Is it not ‘sisterly’ to come out and publicly state when other feminists have gone too far or going down the wrong road? Boards is actually a decent example of how rarely you’d see those who would be ‘vocal feminists’ comment negatively on other feminists aside from a given issue being put directly to them, whereas they’ll be well able to find and post on issues they support.

Bannasidhe

ppars wrote: »

WTF ??? Any chance of letting them just be kids for a few years ?

*sigh* - that is the point of gender neutral toys.

Let them be children. Let them play with any damn kind of toy they want without labels like 'Boys Toys' and 'Girls Toys'. What is the difference between a 7 year old girl and a seven year old boy that they should have specific toys?
Their genitalia. What a stupid way to pigeon hole children and tell them what is 'suitable' for them to play with...

Or are you shocked to hear that children have genitalia? Did you think it arrives with puberty?

Or are you perhaps shocked I used the word 'genitalia'? - That is what it is called - you would prefer I used some silly cutsie terms like 'Willy wee-wee' and 'sit down pee-pee'?

Jeeze...I thought we were (mostly) adults in here....

Links234

Obliq wrote: »

It IS ridiculous - my 11 year old niece has gone full on goth already, having got sickened by the lack of any colour except pink. Now we have to shop for her in petite women's sizes.

Haha, I'm the same :pac:

my mum is begging me to wear more colour, but I rarely wear anything that's not black

crockholm

lufties wrote: »

What's your opinion on gender neutrality in Sweden? I read an article at chrimbo about an advertisement for toys showing a young boy drying his hair with a pink hair dryer, while the young girl was holding a toy drill or spanner play set. Thought it was a bit odd tbh, why are they trying to neutralise genders when our physical make up is different.
Then I also saw some looney swede politician is endorsing a special sort of toilet where a male can sit down and pee, claiming its good for the prostate. Perhaps it is, but it's still a bit bizaare IMO.

My honest opinion is that it is hyped up by media outlets in Anglosphere countries as a way of going "look at those crazy swedes:pac::pac::pac:"

Just briefly, han=he/his hon=she/her and then you have a new gender un specified-hen. First off I thought it was weird but now,the few people that do use it would use it where gender isn't specified or if you don't know the gender, e.g. the boss of a Company- vi ska träffas hen strax/we will meet him/her soon.Really not widely used,the same as pamma & mappa for mamma & pappa.

Afaik there is only one school in Stockholm that has a transgender toilet, so to cut a long story short- hype sells

Bannasidhe

Links234 wrote: »

Haha, I'm the same :pac:

my mum is begging me to wear more colour, but I rarely wear anything that's not black

My 80 year old mother lost the plot in Dunnes and demanded to see the general manager to ask what the hell is wrong with yellow or orange or green or purple...she was trying to buy clothes for that same 7 year old girl.

ppars

Bannasidhe wrote: »

*sigh* - that is the point of gender neutral toys.

Let them be children. Let them play with any damn kind of toy they want without labels like 'Boys Toys' and 'Girls Toys'. What is the difference between a 7 year old girl and a seven year old boy that they should have specific toys?
Their genitalia. What a stupid way to pigeon hole children and tell them what is 'suitable' for them to play with...

Or are you shocked to hear that children have genitalia? Did you think it arrives with puberty?

Or are you perhaps shocked I used the word 'genitalia'? - That is what it is called - you would prefer I used some silly cutsie terms like 'Willy wee-wee' and 'sit down pee-pee'?

Jeeze...I thought we were (mostly) adults in here....

Why exactly do you keep referring specifically to her genitalia rather than her gender ? As you are presumably an adult, specifically why is it more relevant than her gender to the discussion ?

Obliq

Links234 wrote: »

Haha, I'm the same :pac:

my mum is begging me to wear more colour, but I rarely wear anything that's not black

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My 80 year old mother lost the plot in Dunnes and demanded to see the general manager to ask what the hell is wrong with yellow or orange or green or purple...she was trying to buy clothes for that same 7 year old girl.

It's feckin woeful alright - I get a headache looking at the big sea of cerise, rose and candy pinks in the shops. I've been actively encouraging the whole goth thing, ever since she abandoned her pink wellies at my house in favour of an old pair of black farmer wellies the boys had grown out of. Finally put her foot down at her own house and said NO to pink.

I wear colours, but only if they clash in a non sociable fashion

Back to the toys though - my youngest's best mate is a girl down the road who makes ace bows and knives. She's super, and wears a cape and mask most of the time. I love living in the country

lufties

crockholm wrote: »

My honest opinion is that it is hyped up by media outlets in Anglosphere countries as a way of going "look at those crazy swedes:pac::pac::pac:"

Just briefly, han=he/his hon=she/her and then you have a new gender un specified-hen. First off I thought it was weird but now,the few people that do use it would use it where gender isn't specified or if you don't know the gender, e.g. the boss of a Company- vi ska träffas hen strax/we will meet him/her soon.Really not widely used,the same as pamma & mappa for mamma & pappa.

Afaik there is only one school in Stockholm that has a transgender toilet, so to cut a long story short- hype sells

Fair enough, I suppose now I think of it, a mate of mine had a swedish girlfriend who might typify that neutral gender thing. She worked as a labourer on building sites no bother to her. Then other days she'd be wearing a nice dress with make up looking very feminine. Sometimes then we'd be sitting around and she'd let farts rip like it's nobody's business lol. Interesting concept.

Obliq

ppars wrote: »

Why exactly do you keep referring specifically to her genitalia rather than her gender ? As you are presumably an adult, why is it specifically more relevant than her gender to the discussion ?

What's the problem? Seeing as genitalia IS the only difference between girl and boy kids?

ppars

Obliq wrote: »

What's the problem? Seeing as genitalia IS the only difference between girl and boy kids?

That's what I'm wondering, for gender issues, most people refer to children's gender rather than children's genitalia.

Obliq

ppars wrote: »

That's what I'm trying to find out, for gender issues, most people refer to children's gender rather than children's genitalia.

Jaysus, except when you're pointing out the only difference between genders at such a young age are the feckin genitalia. Geddit?!

ppars

Obliq wrote: »

Jaysus, except when you're pointing out the only difference between genders at such a young age are the feckin genitalia. Geddit?!

Not really no, e.g. in normal conversation when discussing if a baby is a boy or girl, we don't usually start taking about their genitalia, it's a kind of a given.
Or perhaps not these days . . . whatever. . . . carry on.

Obliq

ppars wrote: »

Not really no, e.g. in normal conversation when discussing if a baby is a boy or girl, we don't usually start taking about their genitalia, it's a kind of a given.
Or perhaps not these days . . . whatever. . . . carry on.

But this is a conversation about boys and girls being bought and sold into gender specific toys/clothes at an age where the only real difference in thinking between boys and girls (aged 7 was the example Banna suggested, I think) are their genitalia. I think it's fine to explain the lack of societal difference between the genders at that stage by using that analogy. Don't see the problem tbh.

crockholm

lufties wrote: »

Fair enough, I suppose now I think of it, a mate of mine had a swedish girlfriend who might typify that neutral gender thing. She worked as a labourer on building sites no bother to her. Then other days she'd be wearing a nice dress with make up looking very feminine. Sometimes then we'd be sitting around and she'd let farts rip like it's nobody's business lol. Interesting concept.

The Labour market here is more open gender-wise than in Ireland,though that is also not to say thatprobably 90%+ of nurses are female and 90%+ of grunt work builders are male.
I worked for a Company that had a swedish girl labouring,man,was she useless,but great photo op for the Company when promoting themselves.

And on the flip side of the coin,I worked with stonecutter/carver from Munich,and boy was she fukkin spot bollock on in her work.

SYT2000

Obliq wrote: »

What's the problem? Seeing as genitalia IS the only difference between girl and boy kids?

Hopefully you are being sarcastic, girls and boys brains are built differently from inside the womb.

Bannasidhe

ppars wrote: »

Not really no, e.g. in normal conversation when discussing if a baby is a boy or girl, we don't usually start taking about their genitalia, it's a kind of a given.
Or perhaps not these days . . . whatever. . . . carry on.

When a baby is born - how is gender usually determined?

By looking at the genitalia. It is up there with Welcome to the World - now what bits do you do or do not have in the groin area? - 'Ohhh look - it's a boy'. 'no, that is the umbilical cord'.

Of course genitalia is not always an accurate way of determining gender but it us the preferred one.

You seem uncomfortable with the perfectly accurate and technically correct word I used? Would you also be discombobulated if I said male children have testicles and a penis?

Obliq

SYT2000 wrote: »

Hopefully you are being sarcastic, girls and boys brains are built differently from inside the womb.

That's a maybe so, but not so differently that when they get born they have immediate preferences for pink or blue. Can't take the point on that at all, no? How about when you go shopping for a boy OR a girl, and you want to get an age appropriate toy that doesn't look like it's for either - reckon you'd have much luck? I'm not being at all sarcastic.....just a little despairing about what we get sold at an early age.

Femme_Fatale

crockholm wrote: »

Doubtless you would sneer if one were to mention a "feminist hivemind" and yet you're having a cut off her for not following the plan "yet you are a woman yourself",because she may be critical of aspects of feminism,does it make her some kind of uncle tom/aunt jemima?

Assumptions assumptions again. Much of what this thread is built on. "These women are pissed off at being blamed for problems men face due to their gender - they must be fans of hardline feminism" when nobody would need to be a feminist to get defensive of women who get unfairly targeted/blamed.
She is not just critical of "aspects of feminism". I myself am critical of aspects of feminism - and it doesn't even have to be the loony stuff that I'm critical of.

lufties

Obliq wrote: »

That's a maybe so, but not so differently that when they get born they have immediate preferences for pink or blue. Can't take the point on that at all, no? How about when you go shopping for a boy OR a girl, and you want to get an age appropriate toy that doesn't look like it's for either - reckon you'd have much luck? I'm not being at all sarcastic.....just a little despairing about what we get sold at an early age.

I'm not a parent, but if I saw a young boy playing with barbie dolls it would indicate to me a more effeminate child. Perhaps I'm just a dinosaur.

RDM_83 again

Obliq wrote: »

But this is a conversation about boys and girls being bought and sold into gender specific toys/clothes at an age where the only real difference in thinking between boys and girls (aged 7 was the example Banna suggested, I think) are their genitalia. I think it's fine to explain the lack of societal difference between the genders at that stage by using that analogy. Don't see the problem tbh.

Does that mean its PC for me to think that motivational style picture that popped up on my facebook a few times last week about a parent supporting their child being gay at age 7 is completely f*cking ridiculous

(Before I get flamed, i'm pointing out that if gender definition is potentially harmful at a young age presumably defining sexuality 4+ years before puberty is too)

Bannasidhe

SYT2000 wrote: »

Hopefully you are being sarcastic, girls and boys brains are built differently from inside the womb.

Care to enlighten us as to these overwhelming differences that require they need a whole different and gender assigned toys?

I have two grandchildren

7 year old girl = loves maths and science. Logically minded. Also loves dolls/swords/lego/art/ asking difficult questions. Full of energy and very active.

5 year old boy = would watch TV all day if you left him unless there is an opportunity to bake something. Prone to emotional outbursts. Loves dress up and Dr Who. Also loves swords/action figures (dolls re-branded for boys). Lazy as lazy gets.

Are they conforming to their assigned 'brain differences'?

ppars

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When a baby is born - how is gender usually determined?

By looking at the genitalia. It is up there with Welcome to the World - now what bits to you do or do not have in the groin area? - 'Ohhh look - it's a boy'. 'no, that is the umbilical cord'.

Of course genitalia is not always an accurate way of determining gender but it us the preferred one.

You seem uncomfortable with the perfectly accurate and technically correct word I used? Would you also be discombobulated if I said male children have testicles and a penis?

Specifically why is it seemingly more relevant to you than her gender to the discussion ?

Femme_Fatale

lufties wrote: »

I'm not a parent, but if I saw a young boy playing with barbie dolls it would indicate to me a more effeminate child. Perhaps I'm just a dinosaur.

If he was six or seven yeh, but at two or three it might not be indicative of anything; just a toy he likes playing with.

Bannasidhe

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Does that mean its PC for me to think that motivational style picture that popped up on my facebook a few times last week about a parent supporting their child being gay at age 7 is completely f*cking ridiculous

(Before I get flamed, i'm pointing out that if gender definition is potentially harmful at a young age presumably defining sexuality 4+ years before puberty is too)

I knew I was gay when I was seven.

Of course back in the sexist Seventies ironically there were a huge range of gender neutral toys and toys....my 3 months older then I male cousin had the exact same bike as me and we wore the same clothes - jeans/t-shirts and what we in Cork called Rubber Dollies (known to the rest of the world as plimsolls) or wellys depending on climate/location.

Smidge

lufties wrote: »

I'm not a parent, but if I saw a young boy playing with barbie dolls it would indicate to me a more effeminate child. Perhaps I'm just a dinosaur.

I don't agree with that at all. I'm afraid.
My now almost 15 year old son asked for a "girls" toy from Santa when he was about 4-5.
I had absolutely no second thoughts in getting it!
Firstly, because it was what he had asked Santa for and being of the age where Santa is so real to a small child I wouldn't have dreamt of letting him down(regardless of what people, in-laws etc said when they heard what he was asking for and that Santa was indeed bringing it :rolleyes:)
Secondly, he was in no way then, or now effeminate. Not that that would have bothered me either way.
It was the "BIG" toy that year, he saw it on tv and wanted it, I could see no big deal!!!

Obliq

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Does that mean its PC for me to think that motivational style picture that popped up on my facebook a few times last week about a parent supporting their child being gay at age 7 is completely f*cking ridiculous

(Before I get flamed, i'm pointing out that if gender definition is potentially harmful at a young age presumably defining sexuality 4+ years before puberty is too)

I'm not the PC police, so I'll just answer that in the spirit of hoping children not be assigned such loaded roles as girls=caring nurses/fashion victims with pink hairdryers and boys=police/powertool wielding handymen at a relentlessly early age, and say yeah, that sounds ridiculous. However, my eldest took notice of his feelings towards girls at age 9. My youngest (now 12), still hasn't noticed girls (or boys). I'd say it's harmful to steer a child towards any sexuality at that age, personally.