Feminism and the emasculation of men

Annasopra

Shenshen wrote: »

A female friend of mine was trying to get an apprenticeship as a carpenter a few years back.
She sent out hundreds of CVs, the only reply she got was from one company telling her they can't hire women because they've only got one toilet on the premises.

If you can't get a foot in the door trying to learn the trade, how on earth are you supposed to apply for a position for a fully trained job?

I doubt a company would be stupid enough to admit discrimination like that and leave themselves open to a discrimination case.

smoking_kills

mango salsa wrote: »

I doubt a company would be stupid enough to admit discrimination like that and leave themselves open to a discrimination case.

AFAIK small businesses with 5 or less employees are not subject to discrimination laws. Small companies cannot afford maternity leave for instance.

I know that's the case in the UK, so its likely its the same here.

hatrickpatrick

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Weird stuff being said on this thread. Very very weird, projecting stuff.

Ah heyor, this IS an AH thread after all

SYT2000

clairefontaine wrote: »

Still don't know how argue without an ad hominem...or should I say ad feminem and yet have several times criticized others on this thread for their bad form.

So what if I'm a woman. I don't have to subscribe to every crackpot ideology that thinks it has the right to tell me what I should want rather than actually respecting what I do want. And then has the audacity to presume to speak for me.

Just a tad strange that Femme Fatale argues vehemently against the idea of "hive mind", yet she finds it strange that you don't adhere to feminist propoganda.

Her mask has slipped.

hatrickpatrick

willfarmerman wrote: »

Would it be appropriate for a child to be allowed to play with a dildo? You wouldn't allow them play with every object that takes their interest. Nothing wrong with a little guidance..

For the sake of argument, why shouldn't they be?

lufties

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Damn my slow replies



That was because I am confused about why the situation would be becoming more gender binary when the people having children now (born in the 70's /80's) are those brought up with more gender neutral toys and living in a more egalitarian society so the opposite should be expected (and because for certain feminists everything can be blamed on 'the patriachy'). Obliq's quoted paragraph does give a good incite though.



Lets be clear I don't agree with the feminisation argument put forward by the OP, and from my reading of it most of the people that have issues with aspects of modern feminism aren't agreeing with that point. I've absolutely no problem with a more gender neutral society but in the same way that feminism is a broad church and I am sure you would be annoyed if you were compared to a SCUM manifesto feminist those that have issues with 4th wave (it is 4th wave now isn;t it ) are coming from a very wide spectrum of views so its annoying when its staed that if you belive X you must believe Y.

Ok so you don't agree with my agrument, that's fine. Honestly I'm not the best at translating my thoughts to words. The link below relates to what I'm putting forward. You might dismiss it as a silly ad but to me it represents a lot. Can you imagine if it was 'wife for sale', it would never happen. Men are just supposed to suck up this type of shyte and get on with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjNcFwXh5XI

Obliq

lufties wrote: »

rd. You might dismiss it as a silly ad but to me it represents a lot. Can you imagine if it was 'wife for sale', it would never happen. Men are just supposed to suck up this type of shyte and get on with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjNcFwXh5XI

Y'know, I feel your pain. We women have been expected to just suck it up for years (in before the obvious joke :rolleyes:). I actually hate that this kind of ignorant stereotyping that is so blatantly untrue is happening for men now too. It makes me cringe. Equality should not mean men now have to be insulted in a similar vein to how women have been (and continue to be) portrayed. Also, I'm very disturbed by the selling of body image problems to men that women are confronted with, day in day out (see that mcD's ad about chest waxing for a prime example of that kind of normalisation to an ideal).

I wonder does the way you now feel about being portrayed these days give you the same insecurities/lack of confidence that I (when a young woman) struggled with in the face of being told to conform to the beauty/woman's place ideals that I grew up with? Capitalism has a lot to answer to, selling us products to fuel our image insecurities. Perhaps that's the root of this "emasculation" that you feel is happening in a broad sense?

kunst nugget

Do you know what, I want to be able to live in a world where I can make a joke about selling my wife and my wife can make a joke about selling me and it's not seen as point scoring in a gender war.

maguic24

This thread makes my head hurt.

I read the first few pages of comments and I was going to respond but then I decided against it. My response would have ended up being an essay long, there's way too much going on in this thread.

Obliq

kunst nugget wrote: »

Do you know what, I want to be able to live in a world where I can make a joke about selling my wife and my wife can make a joke about selling me and it's not seen as point scoring in a gender war.

I agree. It shouldn't be point scoring between one gender and the other. The example of that ad that Luftie put up is a prime example of someone thinking women are being "bigged up" or "empowered" by the relative showing up/doing down of the man. It's insulting to me as a woman that the ad company thought (in it's wisdom) that I would feel at all better or more inclined to buy into their product by seeing a man brought down. It doesn't appeal to me, and it's not a joke.

Jokes are fine, if they are a good reflection of the actual differences between genders and a good play on them. That's what makes them funny, but this kind of insidious point scoring is very unfunny. And men are clearly waking up to how unfunny it is, now that they're the butt of these so called jokes. I don't exactly call it a win for equality :mad:

Femme_Fatale

clairefontaine wrote: »

Still don't know how argue without an ad hominem...or should I say ad feminem and yet have several times criticized others on this thread for their bad form.

So what if I'm a woman. I don't have to subscribe to every crackpot ideology that thinks it has the right to tell me what I should want rather than actually respecting what I do want. And then has the audacity to presume to speak for me.

But it's not just the crackpot ideologies you object to (which I also object to) it's anything at all that could be deemed feminist - you seem to go out of your way to let everyone know you have a problem with it, because the word "feminist" is there. Very questionable.

SYT2000 wrote: »

Just a tad strange that Femme Fatale argues vehemently against the idea of "hive mind", yet she finds it strange that you don't adhere to feminist propoganda.

Her mask has slipped.

Oh hi, you're "brand new" to Boards I see. So you must have missed the post where I already addressed this and where I said I don't like fanaticism either but there are some views that could be termed as feminist, which are just basic cop-on, and one doesn't have to be a fanatic to subscribe to them.
No different to agreeing that fathers' rights are crap and men are regularly ridiculed in advertising.

Zillah

*takes off shirt, drinks Diet Coke slowly*

Bannasidhe

Zillah wrote: »

*takes off shirt, drinks Diet Coke slowly*

Rips wax strip off Zillah's chest.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Rips wax strip off Zillah's chest.

Makes bad joke about hairy backed gorillas.

Zillah

Jokes on you, I already waxed my chest because I defy your proscriptive notions of masculinity.

Legs.Eleven

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Oh hi, you're "brand new" to Boards I see. So you must have missed the post where I already addressed this and where I said I don't like fanaticism either but there are some views that could be termed as feminist, which are just basic cop-on, and one doesn't have to be a fanatic to subscribe to them.
No different to agreeing that fathers' rights are crap and men are regularly ridiculed in advertising.

My post speaking out against the extreme Feminist protestors in Madrid at the pro-choice protest recently became an excuse for her to attack my moderate Feminism (which I didn't refer to once on that thread). The pro-choice protest wasn't a Feminist protest and I was marching as someone who is pro-choice (because although it could be classed a Feminist issue, it affects everyone) and I was posting as someone who's Pro-Choice but Clairefontaine twisted words and came out with stupid arguments to make little digs in my direction because I've stated I'm a moderate Feminist in the past. Happens on every single thread that is any way vaguely related to gender issues or threads related to women full stop. Completely unreasonable and infuriating.

Bannasidhe

Zillah wrote: »

Jokes on you, I already waxed my chest because I defy your proscriptive notions of masculinity.

Fetches tweezers to deal with stubbly bits...

SYT2000

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

My post speaking out against the extreme Feminist protestors in Madrid at the pro-choice protest recently became an excuse for her to attack my moderate Feminism (which I didn't refer to once on that thread). The pro-choice protest wasn't a Feminist protest and I was marching as someone who is pro-choice (because although it could be classed a Feminist issue, it affects everyone) and I was posting as someone who's Pro-Choice but Clairefontaine twisted words and came out with stupid arguments to make little digs in my direction because I've stated I'm a moderate Feminist in the past. Happens on every single thread that is any way vaguely related to gender issues or threads related to women full stop. Completely unreasonable and infuriating.

What sort of things do moderate feminists believe and campaign for? How are they defined?

Bannasidhe

SYT2000 wrote: »

What sort of things do moderate feminists believe and campaign for? How are they defined?

Equality.



equality

noun

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities.

Legs.Eleven

SYT2000 wrote: »

What sort of things do moderate feminists believe and campaign for? How are they defined?

Issues that affect women specifically. I live in Spain and they're not equal here. To give a few examples, the Spanish timetable is structured in such a way that it makes it impossible for even the average working mother who doesn't want to progress up the career ladder to work and have a family. Maternity leave is pathetically short, never mind paternity leave. I'm pro-choice and against the controversial bill here which will make obtaining an abortion as difficult as in Ireland. This is an issue that will mostly affect women. Sexist comments and leering on street would be common. Sexism in the media is rife. Sexism in politics is rife. I've thought in about 100 companies in Madrid and have only taught one female boss. You feel like a second-class citizen here and that's not something I felt in Ireland personally. Most women I've spoken to, Feminist or not, feel the same. Democratic country since 1975 but attitudes haven't caught up yet.


I don't specifically campaign for those issues, I go on all protests that I feel are worthy like most moderate feminists here. I don't define myself exclusively as a Feminist. In fact, I never mention it unless it crops up here. I believe in equality for everyone and do the little bit of protesting I do for that.

maguic24

I would class myself as a moderate feminist and to be a feminist I think you have to believe in equality not just rights for one gender. It infuriates me when people think that as feminists, we are not bothered by men's rights, which is totally untrue! I think the lack of parental rights afforded to unmarried fathers in this country is appalling and the way in which we deal with domestic violence towards men is also appalling. Gender stereotypes are a lot to blame for these inequalities which don't JUST affect women but inadvertently men too!

Another thing that gets on my gonads is the way children are brainwashed to act and think in a certain way by society and the media. What do all girls have to like pink & barbies and boys like guns? Open the Argos catalogue and you will see a clear distinction between toys advertised for boys and toys advertised for girls. Take lego, it's fecking unisex yet it is marketed at boys. What the actual fudge? From a young age children are brought up like this and then sent off to single sex secondary schools. I can't get my head around this at all.... The mind boggles.

SYT2000

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equality.



equality

noun

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities.

Really, why do I never hear of moderate feminists campaigning for equal prison sentences or equal family law. These are areas which are highly unequal? Now maybe they are campaigning in these areas for equality but I haven't heard about.

Legs.Eleven

SYT2000 wrote: »

Really, why do I never hear of moderate feminists campaigning for equal prison sentences or equal family law. These are areas which are highly unequal? Now maybe they are campaigning in these areas for equality but I haven't heard about.

Protest in the centre of Madrid last year for rights for fathers which I attended. Attended by 100s of women. There's an example of a moderate feminist supporting that cause. I love a good protest, me.


Edit: Oh and just to add, most protestors were reasonable, normal people except for those carrying the, "Down with Feminazis" signs. Ironic really.

Bannasidhe

SYT2000 wrote: »

Really, why do I never hear of moderate feminists campaigning for equal prison sentences or equal family law. These are areas which are highly unequal? Now maybe they are campaigning in these areas for equality but I haven't heard about.

I personally have campaigned for equal parental rights.

A close friend of mine is a Law Professor, feminist and human rights activist who has addressed several conferences and written many an article about inequalities in sentencing based on gender - she is against it. Equal Crime = Equal Time.

But while we are speaking of inequalities in sentencing - I seem to recall there has been quite a few cases where men were able to buy their way out of jail following conviction for serious sexual assaults so to claim the courts favour women all the time is patently not true.

Have you actually looked to see if feminists were campaigning for these things or are you simply, incorrectly, assuming they don't?

Alf Veedersane

I shouldn't be surprised that this has gone on for 36 pages.

I'm disappointed in myself that I was, if only a little.

professore

FTA69 wrote: »

What percentage of the parliament are women?

Less women want to be politicians than men. Also 50% of the electorate are women - if they only voted for other women there would be no men in parliament.

FTA69 wrote: »

Why do women on average earn less than men for similar work?

This is untrue - or their own fault in the Private Sector. It's illegal in the Public Sector and in the Private Sector you get what you ASK FOR and how valuable you are to the company if you threaten to leave. It is true that women earn less than men - but this is because they do less hours, more part time, job share etc.

FTA69 wrote: »

Why are women under-represented for promotion in the professions? Why is maternity constantly seen as a barrier for a woman's career?

Well that's an easy one - because it is a barrier. if you have 2 candidates for a job equally qualified - or even the "well" one slightly better qualified - and one has an illness that means they will certainly be missing for several months at a time over the course of several years, who are you going to pick? You would be a rubbish boss if you picked the one you know for certain will be gone for several months at a time. It's not sexist, it's just practical.

FTA69 wrote: »

Why is domestic violence still prevalent?

Because of the failure of the law to intervene. Domestic violence is not confined to men by the way - and there are lots of cases of horrendous mental abuse of men by their spouses that I have witnessed first hand. Some people male and female are just nasty. In fact my 16 yo daughter has a friend who is heading for being a victim of domestic abuse - even I can see it. Her boyfriend is a complete overbearing control freak a$$hole.

kunst nugget

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I personally have campaigned for equal parental rights.

A close friend of mine is a Law Professor, feminist and human rights activist who has addressed several conferences and written many an article about inequalities in sentencing based on gender - she is against it. Equal Crime = Equal Time.

But while we are speaking of inequalities in sentencing - I seem to recall there has been quite a few cases where men were able to buy their way out of jail following conviction for serious sexual assaults so to claim the courts favour women all the time is patently not true.

Have you actually looked to see if feminists were campaigning for these things or are you simply, incorrectly, assuming they don't?

I remember having a thread in another part of this forum where they were giving out that you didn't see feminists campaigning for equality in relation to paternity leave. A quick google search that in fact several feminist organisations were campaigning actively for it. The reply by some to that was the were only doing it because it was beneficial to women and not because it helped men so it was irrelevant that they were campaigning for it. To be fair, you're just trying to fight wind when it comes to something like that.

SYT2000

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I personally have campaigned for equal parental rights.

A close friend of mine is a Law Professor, feminist and human rights activist who has addressed several conferences and written many an article about inequalities in sentencing based on gender - she is against it. Equal Crime = Equal Time.

But while we are speaking of inequalities in sentencing - I seem to recall there has been quite a few cases where men were able to buy their way out of jail following conviction for serious sexual assaults so to claim the courts favour women all the time is patently not true.

Have you actually looked to see if feminists were campaigning for these things or are you simply, incorrectly, assuming they don't?

I haven't heard of them campaigning for equal prison sentences, exactly like I said in my post. Who said courts favour men every single time.

The fact of the matter is though the courts are incredibly biased against men.

Femme_Fatale

I don't have a problem with men's rights activists just campaigning for men's rights, just with people complaining about issues men face yet doing nothing themselves, but eagerly blaming feminists/expecting feminists to do something about issues men face.

beano345

Wonder what the issue was with this campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZcMsqCGpu0