Feminism and the emasculation of men

hatrickpatrick

B0jangles wrote: »

I don't want to link directly to anything on AVfM since don't want to give them the pageviews, so here's a article quoting some of the worst things Elam has said, with links to the pieces quoted if you want to check the context:

http://manboobz.com/2013/10/18/paul-elam-of-a-voice-for-men-in-his-own-words/

Let me just start by saying that I absolutely despise manboobz.com, its constant mocking of the men's rights movement in every context gets very old.
Having read that article, I will in fact agree that Elam seems to have an extreme thirst for bloodshed and is quite clearly a psychopath of the highest order. I have actually come across some of those writings before (though not attributed to him) and have commented on them, some of them seem horribly familiar.

I will counter with one thing though: His views have not, as far as I know, ever gone mainstream enough as to be supported by the media, a la the Blurred Lines and Topman stuff. So while it is indeed absolutely vile, it's not as easy to see how someone would interpret it as a mainstream MRM opinion in the same way as something like the Blurred Lines thing which has had literally thousands of news articles written about it since the day the song was released...

B0jangles

The awful thing is that as far as I can see from the (limited) research I've done, Paul Elam and AVFM have become one of the loudest and most recognisable voices in the movement for helping men with the issues that especially affect them - I think this is largely because he doesn't actually do much except rant loudly and aggressively on the internet whereas the people who are actually doing something to help men are busy doing it rather than shouting about how women have destroyed everything.

PucaMama

B0jangles wrote: »

I don't want to link directly to anything on AVfM since don't want to give them the pageviews, so here's a article quoting some of the worst things Elam has said, with links to the pieces quoted if you want to check the context:

http://manboobz.com/2013/10/18/paul-elam-of-a-voice-for-men-in-his-own-words/

why is this vile excuse for a human allowed to continue?

Bannasidhe

Foxtrol wrote: »

Who said ‘all of one’s time’? If the massive majority of feminists disagree with these campaigns, as is claimed, then it should be no work at all.

Well for at least the original poster I responded to, they feel that feminism is being tarred with the same brush as the extremes, so clearly for them the current plan seems to already be failing.

I think the bolded part of your post is the key issue with your mindset and that of many feminists. You simply don’t care what sort of ridiculous things are thrown out by other feminists and yet expect the general public to somehow assume that most feminists don’t think this way. I struggle to think of any other area of society where a group has gotten away with totally ignoring the actions of their peers and preserved their public image, why do you think feminism could/should be a special case?

In any aspect of life, I personally find it very hard to trust or respect the words of anyone if they only attack outward, afraid to be self-critical of themselves or those who they stand under the same banner as them. It’s the sign of a person who only cares about one thing and it certainly isn’t ‘equality’.

That highlighted bit - you have never heard of the Roman Catholic Church? Really??? Or Fianna Fail???

What do you want us to do exactly? Excommunicate them? Revoke their membership??

Oh - we can't because it's not a bloody club/religion/political party - it is a philosophy. There is no membership. No Club. No hierarchy to kick you out.

How many time do I have to say that before your 'mindset' allows you to comprehend this simple fact???

I am not all feminists. All feminists are not me. Each feminist speaks only for themselves. Feminist is just a tiny part of what I am. The term means I generally agree enough with a broad philisophy to apply the term to myself. I am also a socialist - do I agree with every single thing said by every single person who calls themselves a socialist - no. Do I spend my life shouting 'I Disagree!' - no. Because I have a fecking life as well.

Are you so rigid in your thinking that you simply cannot understand this?

To make a statements like ' the key issue with your mindset and that of many feminists.' is exactly the same as if I said ' the key issue with your mindset and that of many men'. It is a ridiculous and untrue and frankly impossible for all men to think the same -yet you accuse us of doing just that.

You are a man - do you spend your time disassociating yourself from loony men? Every time a man makes an obnoxious statement on TV do you immediately contact the studio to voice your disagreement?

mariaalice

Maybe the loony's on both side of this are actually mentally ill, I cant make head nor tail of lot of this thread except that I think the op is blaming the wrong thing for his problems.

Foxtrol

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That highlighted bit - you have never heard of the Roman Catholic Church? Really??? Or Fianna Fail???

Groups who also didn’t speak up against members under their banner and as a result the public’s opinion of them fell to ridiculously low levels? Thanks for making my point for me.

But sure people are picking on the feminists, letting the bad eggs give the rest a bad name, it never happened to any other groups. It's so, so unfair.:rolleyes:

What do you want us to do exactly? Excommunicate them? Revoke their membership??

Oh - we can't because it's not a bloody club/religion/political party - it is a philosophy. There is no membership. No Club. No hierarchy to kick you out.

I know you apparently have better things to do, but maybe, just maybe, one of your very vocal majority disagree with them in public the odd time?

How many time do I have to say that before your 'mindset' allows you to comprehend this simple fact???

So as a mindset means you cant openly disagree with those under your banner in public, even if you disagree with them in private? Should the public be given mind reading lessons to understand what the majority of feminists believe then?

I am not all feminists. All feminists are not me. Each feminist speaks only for themselves. Feminist is just a tiny part of what I am. The term means I generally agree enough with a broad philisophy to apply the term to myself. I am also a socialist - do I agree with every single thing said by every single person who calls themselves a socialist - no. Do I spend my life shouting 'I Disagree!' - no. Because I have a fecking life as well.

Are you so rigid in your thinking that you simply cannot understand this?

So if under a socialist banner in Ireland there was a campaign that called for anti-gay laws to be implemented, like those in African nations recently, you wouldn’t voice your opposition? Actually forget just you, none of the socialist spokespeople, leaders of socialist groups, the majority of socialists who don’t agree with the campaigners? No one would say anything during this campaign or the next when wanted to ban all types of abortion, or the next…? Do you not see the trend of ignorance/apathy and how people outside the mindset/banner cant ignore?

To make a statements like ' the key issue with your mindset and that of many feminists.' is exactly the same as if I said ' the key issue with your mindset and that of many men'. It is a ridiculous and untrue and frankly impossible for all men to think the same -yet you accuse us of doing just that.

Where did I say ‘all’? You admitted to being apathetic and well if the majority of feminists disagree with these campaigns then what other reason are they staying quiet? Are you going to stick with your other excuses that ‘they don’t have the time’ or that ‘the men will think they’re always fighting’?

You are a man - do you spend your time disassociating yourself from loony men? Every time a man makes an obnoxious statement on TV do you immediately contact the studio to voice your disagreement?

Again who said ‘every time’? I’ve repeatedly stated that we’re not talking about every ‘looney’ it’s the several large scale feminist campaigns which it has been claimed do not have the support of mainstream feminist movement yet there’s a deafening silence from the mainstream every single time. If there was a ‘looney’ MRA campaign which gathered such momentum I’d definitely make my objections known but this has never happened as far as I’m aware.

clairefontaine

This discussion reminds me of when Catholics defend Rome and the entire clery against cover ups, abuse and coersion by saying "But they are not the real...Christians...."

Femme_Fatale

Yeh covering up child rape for the catholic church is really comparable to people agreeing with some feminist views.

Fuhkkkk!

Bannasidhe

Foxtrol wrote: »

Groups who also didn’t speak up against members under their banner and as a result the public’s opinion of them fell to ridiculously low levels? Thanks for making my point for me.

But sure people are picking on the feminists, letting the bad eggs give the rest a bad name, it never happened to any other groups. It's so, so unfair.:rolleyes:



I know you apparently have better things to do, but maybe, just maybe, one of your very vocal majority disagree with them in public the odd time?



So as a mindset means you cant openly disagree with those under your banner in public, even if you disagree with them in private? Should the public be given mind reading lessons to understand what the majority of feminists believe then?



So if under a socialist banner in Ireland there was a campaign that called for anti-gay laws to be implemented, like those in African nations recently, you wouldn’t voice your opposition? Actually forget just you, none of the socialist spokespeople, leaders of socialist groups, the majority of socialists who don’t agree with the campaigners? No one would say anything during this campaign or the next when wanted to ban all types of abortion, or the next…? Do you not see the trend of ignorance/apathy and how people outside the mindset/banner cant ignore?



Where did I say ‘all’? You admitted to being apathetic and well if the majority of feminists disagree with these campaigns then what other reason are they staying quiet? Are you going to stick with your other excuses that ‘they don’t have the time’ or that ‘the men will think they’re always fighting’?



Again who said ‘every time’? I’ve repeatedly stated that we’re not talking about every ‘looney’ it’s the several large scale feminist campaigns which it has been claimed do not have the support of mainstream feminist movement yet there’s a deafening silence from the mainstream every single time. If there was a ‘looney’ MRA campaign which gathered such momentum I’d definitely make my objections known but this has never happened as far as I’m aware.

Look.

I have explained this several times and I have run out of patience.

Let me be frank. I don't care if you like feminists or not.

I really don't.

I am used to it.

Seems to me if the idea of feminism is still pissing off certain men it must be doing something right as it is generally the men who whinge about loss of their 'dominance' who bitch the most.

Foxtrol

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Look.

I have explained this several times and I have run out of patience.

Let me be frank. I don't care if you like feminists or not.

I really don't.

I am used to it.

Seems to me if the idea of feminism is still pissing off certain men it must be doing something right as it is generally the men who whinge about loss of their 'dominance' who bitch the most.

No you haven’t, you have gone round and round in circles giving excuse after excuse as to why yourself and other feminists don’t/shouldn’t voice their disapproval of the extreme elements in public. That’s absolutely fine, that’s your/their choice not to do it.

What you haven’t been able to get close to explaining is how/why the general public should somehow become mind readers and know that the majority of feminists don’t support these campaigns, each having a large number of participants and see no disapproving voices from any other feminists.

Until you can explain that, I don’t see why you can think they have the right to be treated any differently than any other group who don’t/didn’t voice disapproval of bad eggs under their banner.

Legs.Eleven

I'm really not, I just love a debate, an I feel very passionately about this particular subject.

The "debating" part I'm not mad about but I have my convictions I like to actively do something about it too. I protest on a very regular basis, HatrickPatrick. Most of what I protest against has fcuk all to do with Feminism. You might've missed the post where I mentioned I went on a march for rights of fathers last year in Madrid. 100s of women at it alongside a group of men holding up, "Down with Feminazi!" posters. Ironic, don't you think?

I'd love to hear what you do about the causes you give the impression you're so vehemently passionate about. I'm guessing fcuk all bar "debate" on Boards? You feel passionate about discussing Feminism in all their varied forms on a message board. Good for you.

My sarcasm is in no way designed to be offensive, merely to lighten the mood in what can often become a fairly heated debate. I also highly dispute that I shout people down - my posts always contain questions to be answered rather than conclusions.

Sarcasm creates hostility and doesn't lighten any tone and you know it. Particularly this fella: :rolleyes: you seem to be so fond of.

Oh the irony

In other words, you're not going to cite a single source to back up your claims, unlike myself who provided several earlier and will happily

No "in other words". I always say what I mean. When I say "I couldn't be arsed debating with someone who won't listen or even read my posts", I meant it. You went off on one about how I was referencing Ireland which made it very clear you're picking and choosing what you're reading on here. The post which stated "I live in Spain..." was the page before, so excuse me if I'm not all that enthused about debating with somoene like yourself.

I work from 8am - 10pm (I've just arrived home from work now, so can't sit at work debating on Boards all day. It's 11pm Spanish time.) If I did provide you with a long list of examples of sexism in Spain, would that achieve anything do you think? And if so, what? Give me an incentive to waste the last bit of energy I have from a very long week.

You're very clearly not a man hater, in fact the vast, vast majority of feminists are not and I have literally never claimed they are.Again, this is something I have never claimed.

Others on this thread have accused Feminists of being all kinds of things, so I'm on guard. My apologies to have accused you in the wrong.

I have never made you out to be anything at all. I'm attacking an ideology, not specific individuals - if you want to see me attacking specific individuals have a look at my comments regarding Alan Shatter and Martin Callinan in the GSOC bugging threads.

With your sarcasm, your inability to read posts, your questions that DO NOT promote debate such as, "And furthermore would you then agree with my statement that Irish guys are discriminated against, in many cases in the actual law of the land? And would you agree that feminists never seem to say much about it?". You're clearly trying to back me into a corner and I won't play that game. I'll keep on protesting for EVERY cause I believe in (vast majority which have fook all to do with Feminism) and you can continue persuing your hobby of ranting on Boards. Deal?

I read, I listen, I provide rebuttal where necessary - this is how debating works. In what way can I possibly claim to have "shouted anyone down"?

When you very obviously didn't read any of MY posts. You were caught out not doing so but instead of saying, "I'm wrong and I apologise for that outburst" you asked me a very biased question in the attempt to back me into a corner.

I have no clue what feminists are up to around the world. I'm an individual and this is something I refer to myself when the debate crops up. I don't have to answer to anyone's actions but my own and to ask me to do so is not fair.

In all honesty I wonder if you've got somebody else's posts in the thread confused with mine? Some here have indeed been very vitriolic, I have not (in my view anyway).

Your engaging with me and I'm doing the same.

Again, if you feel like citing some examples, I'd be more than happy to debate those.

No and don't come out with, "In other words...". My answer is simply, "No". There's THOUSANDS of examples of sexism in Spain that can easily be found but I couldn't be arsed to someone who won't listen.

hatrickpatrick

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Look.

I have explained this several times and I have run out of patience.

Let me be frank. I don't care if you like feminists or not.

I really don't.

I am used to it.

Seems to me if the idea of feminism is still pissing off certain men it must be doing something right as it is generally the men who whinge about loss of their 'dominance' who bitch the most.

Ok, I'll be frank as well: I couldn't give a flying f*ck about dominance. I'm one of those guys who thinks that always having to make the first move is tiresome, that people who judge a woman by her "number" are a hideous combination of asshole and moron, and that people who commit violent sexual offenses should spend a sizeable portion of their miserable lives behind bars.

I just object to the loss of my right to say or write whatever comes to mind regardless of who might find a reason to get offended by it. I object to censorship in any form whatsoever, I always have, I always will, and any movement which fails to disassociate itself from a very vocal sub-group which campaigns for bruised egos and delicate sensibilities to come before the most important human right we have is insidious.

That's my only major problem with feminism. Things like domestic violence campaigns which are biased against men and so on piss me off, sure, but nowhere near as much as people who say "this song annoys me, I want it banned from the airwaves" or "this t shirt promotes a message I have a problem with, the shop must pull it from sale".

That's it. That's the only issue I have with it in a major way and to discredit people who have a problem with feminism by making blanket statements about their reasons for opposing it is unbelievably childish.

spin_master

clairefontaine wrote: »

This discussion reminds me of when Catholics defend Rome and the entire clery against cover ups, abuse and coersion by saying "But they are not the real...Christians...."

no true scotsmans argument

K-9

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I just object to the loss of my right to say or write whatever comes to mind regardless of who might find a reason to get offended by it. I object to censorship in any form whatsoever, I always have, I always will, and any movement which fails to disassociate itself from a very vocal sub-group which campaigns for bruised egos and delicate sensibilities to come before the most important human right we have is insidious.

Unfortunately you'll usually find yourself in a minority if you object to any censorship of any kind, it's a pretty strong opinion, most people will agree with censorship in some form or another.

That's my only major problem with feminism. Things like domestic violence campaigns which are biased against men and so on piss me off, sure, but nowhere near as much as people who say "this song annoys me, I want it banned from the airwaves" or "this t shirt promotes a message I have a problem with, the shop must pull it from sale".

Well that's fine, but there will be times your opinion will be in the minority.

Wibbs

K-9 wrote: »

Well that's fine, but there will be times your opinion will be in the minority.

Though as history has shown us that's not always a bad position to be in in the long term.

K-9

Wibbs wrote: »

Though as history has shown us that's not always a bad position to be in in the long term.

Well society is just a collection of minorities after all.

hatrickpatrick

K-9 wrote: »

Unfortunately you'll usually find yourself in a minority if you object to any censorship of any kind, it's a pretty strong opinion, most people will agree with censorship in some form or another.



Well that's fine, but there will be times your opinion will be in the minority.

I fully accept that. The reason I bring it up is specifically because I'm so unbelievably tired of seeing remarks like "If you're not a feminist, it means you don't believe in equality" or as above "Guys who have a problem with feminism usually just don't want to lose their dominance", or any such ridiculousness. There are perfectly valid and legitimate reasons for opposing feminism which do not make one a sexist pig, and I'm absolutely sick of the bullying tactic of essentially shaming people who state their disapproval of feminism by boxing them into objecting to the equality aspect of it as opposed to its many other aspects which have nothing to do with the principle that men and women should be treated equally. That's all.

clairefontaine

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I fully accept that. The reason I bring it up is specifically because I'm so unbelievably tired of seeing remarks like "If you're not a feminist, it means you don't believe in equality" or as above "Guys who have a problem with feminism usually just don't want to lose their dominance", or any such ridiculousness. There are perfectly valid and legitimate reasons for opposing feminism which do not make one a sexist pig, and I'm absolutely sick of the bullying tactic of essentially shaming people who state their disapproval of feminism by boxing them into objecting to the equality aspect of it as opposed to its many other aspects which have nothing to do with the principle that men and women should be treated equally. That's all.

It's political and ideological blackmail, sometimes emotional... As was attempted to be practiced upon me..."And you're a woman too.."

lufties

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I fully accept that. The reason I bring it up is specifically because I'm so unbelievably tired of seeing remarks like "If you're not a feminist, it means you don't believe in equality" or as above "Guys who have a problem with feminism usually just don't want to lose their dominance", or any such ridiculousness. There are perfectly valid and legitimate reasons for opposing feminism which do not make one a sexist pig, and I'm absolutely sick of the bullying tactic of essentially shaming people who state their disapproval of feminism by boxing them into objecting to the equality aspect of it as opposed to its many other aspects which have nothing to do with the principle that men and women should be treated equally. That's all.

Agreed, I saw a poster on another site get called a mysogynist for calling Angela Kerins a greedy woman. More bullshyte from the PC brigrade turning it into something it wasn't intended to be.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think feminism isn't overly necessary in todays Ireland. Maybe certain professions like becoming a solicitor and such are too male dominated and hard for females to break into but I think that's as much to do with class/wealth/old boys club as anything else in my opinion.

Feminism should be brought into the equality camp. There's nothing really left to legislative for that is denying women rights today, yet there is plenty of room to legislate for greater equality when it comes to men, homosexuals and immigrants.

Can't link on my phone but some of ye might remember an article from Sweden recently where they were encouraging men to start using a seat when urinating. When people are telling you how to piss in a toilet, you know we've crossed a line.

lufties

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think feminism isn't overly necessary in todays Ireland. Maybe certain professions like becoming a solicitor and such are too male dominated and hard for females to break into but I think that's as much to do with class/wealth/old boys club as anything else in my opinion.

Feminism should be brought into the equality camp. There's nothing really left to legislative for that is denying women rights today, yet there is plenty of room to legislate for greater equality when it comes to men, homosexuals and immigrants.

Can't link on my phone but some of ye might remember an article from Sweden recently where they were encouraging men to start using a seat when urinating. When people are telling you how to piss in a toilet, you know we've crossed a line.

Ya i mentioned that in an earlier post. On a plus side you get to be patted down by hot swedish blondes at the airport( just joking). The politician regarding the toilet thing must be a right loon. As another poster mentioned, this gender neutralisation in sweden is a lot of media hype.

dissed doc

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think feminism isn't overly necessary in todays Ireland. Maybe certain professions like becoming a solicitor and such are too male dominated and hard for females to break into but I think that's as much to do with class/wealth/old boys club as anything else in my opinion.

Yeah exactly, it's just as hard for 99.99% of men. Has nothing to do with gender, but if that is how a person primarily views their place in the world - as a gender - than they will interpret everything based on it.

tritium

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Can you imagine if women here posted that men's rights activists are all misogynists by association because a tiny minority of them are, and are the most vocal so they drown out the reasonable majority?!

I see that opinion posted frequently

I see it going unchallenged by feminists I know frequently

tritium

PucaMama wrote: »

why is this vile excise for a human allowed to continue?

I don't know, maybe the same reason that vile excuses like Andrea dworkin were allowed to continue? The same reason gobsh1tes like Janice Raymond were allowed to do so much damage with their hateful views?

PucaMama

tritium wrote: »

I don't know, maybe the same reason that vile excuses like Andrea dworkin were allowed to continue? The same reason gobsh1tes like Janice Raymond were allowed to do so much damage with their hateful views?

do they support rape and domestic violence i didn't know that

Links234

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There's nothing really left to legislative for that is denying women rights today

*Cough* X Case *cough*

If you think that Feminism has no real goals in Ireland, you're very deeply mistaken, because in terms of reproductive health there's a long way to go yet.

tritium

PucaMama wrote: »

do they support rape and domestic violence i didn't know that

Well, let's see. Janice Raymond has advocated massive discrimination against transgender people in the US. As a result many were denied basic levels of health care they required.

Dworkin, would be heroin smuggler and conspiracy theorist, was a PIV nut who would deny the right to consent to (heterosexual) sex on the basis it was equivalent to rape (what does that make her? An antirapist? Sound too positive)

Neither are looking particularly positive I'm afraid, even if Janice Raymond has managed over the years to airbrush her hate filled ideology and build a career as an acceptable advocate (strange how that baggage habt followed her a bit more )

tritium

Links234 wrote: »

*Cough* X Case *cough*

If you think that Feminism has no real goals in Ireland, you're very deeply mistaken, because in terms of reproductive health there's a long way to go yet.

If you're talking about abortion , I'm afraid there's a whole different argument there, one that isn't feminist centric by any means (feel free to peruse the numerousAH threads on this )

Links234

tritium wrote: »

If you're talking about abortion , I'm afraid there's a whole different argument there, one that isn't feminist centric by any means (feel free to peruse the numerousAH threads on this )

In what way is women's reproductive health NOT a feminist issue?

tritium

Links234 wrote: »

In what way is women's reproductive health NOT a feminist issue?

In the way that there are a number of feminists groups that are anti abortion for example Feminists for Life. I'd see abortion covering a broad spectrum of groups since it gets into areas such as ethics far more than most mainstream feminist topics

(Disclaimer- as i've posted before I sit strictly in the the grey area (as opposed to black and white) wrt abortion. I provide the above as information rather than endorsement. If anyone wants to tell me that these are all self loathing women/ a front for the RCC etc knock yourself out but I won't be biting)