Feminism and the emasculation of men

longhalloween

Semele wrote: »

I love that, in a post intended to argue that male and female roles/behaviours are seen in an unequal way (to the detriment of the men, of course), your counterpart to "male sexuality" is "female immorality"! Says an awful lot about how much you allegedly "love" and "respect" women:rolleyes:

I think the OPs opinions say a lot of the environment where he was raised.

tigger123

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree T, however that doesn't mean that this explanation should be used as a gagging order to quell all discussion on many aspects of US college campus "feminism", much of it easily debatable and some of it pure and simple BS.

Yeah, I know that, and I've seen the arguments that start over in TGC, and the Mod Notes / Warnings that are put in place. But the problem I have is that all too often in those threads the extreme versions of an ideology are used as an example of mainstream thinking: look at this feminist harpy, sure aren't they all like that. Judging by their posts I'd wonder if the more regular contributors in TGC have an actual understanding of modern feminism.

kunst nugget wrote: »

I do believe that young men and boys need decent role models and we need to have positive and constructive discussion about masculinity and what being a man means today. But nearly all of that MRA stuff is fúcking terrible and disheartening to read as a man.

I'd agree with that, absolutely, I think there should be much more discussion on gender roles in society as a lot has changed in the last fifty or so years. More role models too.

The MRA stuff is f*cking abhorrent, like I said before though, it's guys who are unhappy blaming women for all that's wrong in their lives, it's pathetic.

Bannasidhe

tigger123 wrote: »

The MRA stuff is f*cking abhorrent, like I said before though, it's guys who are unhappy blaming women for all that's wrong in their lives, it's pathetic.

Which is just as pathetic as women blaming men for all that is wrong in their lives.

kunst nugget

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree T, however that doesn't mean that this explanation should be used as a gagging order to quell all discussion on many aspects of US college campus "feminism", much of it easily debatable and some of it pure and simple BS.

The problem is that an awful lot of the time, common sense gets washed away and what we seem to end up with is the certainty that feminist controlled media are victimising men and any crank feminist making an outrageous claim, no matter how obscure the platform or blog, is part of the overall feminist hivemind liberal press.

the_syco

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyone for a Diet coke ?

Does it go well with a packet of Hunky Dory crisps?

TheLastMohican

What is MRA?

TheLastMohican

TheLastMohican wrote: »

What is MRA?

Men's rights activists

Sir Gallagher

strobe wrote: »

Honestly I've never once felt emasculated in my entire life by women, feminism, society, the media or anything else that I can think of. Think this 'feeling emasculated' malarky must be akin to the whole 'being offended' thing you also hear about. Something you do to yourself and project the cause onto outward agents or some such I suspect.

Being "emasculated" is an excuse for blokes who are big massive pussies.

Wibbs

tigger123 wrote: »

Yeah, I know that, and I've seen the arguments that start over in TGC, and the Mod Notes / Warnings that are put in place. But the problem I have is that all too often in those threads the extreme versions of an ideology are used as an example of mainstream thinking: look at this feminist harpy, sure aren't they all like that. Judging by their posts I'd wonder if the more regular contributors in TGC have an actual understanding of modern feminism.

Agreed again T, however there is much of modern feminism that are considered unassailable givens written in stone and trotted out with often little debate and even less disagreement.

EG FTA's post earlier(sorry to pick on ya )

FTA69 wrote: »

What percentage of the parliament are women? Why do women on average earn less than men for similar work? Why are women under-represented for promotion in the professions? Why is maternity constantly seen as a barrier for a woman's career? Why is domestic violence still prevalent?

Now that lot would be considered pretty much unvarnished truth and evidence of the continuing lesser role of women in society. Problem being that every point is debatable and demonstrably so, much of it incorrect and some of it ignorant of the reality on the ground.

Imagine two posts. One like FTA's and another that proved the points were fallacious or vague. Which would garner more agreement and thanks from the general population? The extremes don't worry me. Neither the scary haired gilded cage women's studies student in an ivy league college, nor the bitter crosseyed eejit practicing "pickup artistry". The worry comes when bogus ideas, or near bogus ideas are considered mainstream. That's the problem. Because sooner or later it will be more widely seen as bogus and that will tend to make even more reasoned folks dig in heels philosophically.

Menas

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Being "emasculated" is an excuse for blokes who are big massive pussies.

Nah, being emasculated is an excuse for men who have very definite and outdated views of what it means to be a man.

beano345

"The MRA stuff is f*cking abhorrent"

Tell that to the thousands of men who've gone through the divorce courts

lufties

Bannasidhe wrote: »

His lady - like his dog/bike/house/chiponhisshoulder?

Yes, his woman, like women say 'my man', or have you never heard that before. In fact I love when a woman says that to me.

Independent women != emasculated men - unless one believes that in order to be masculine men need women to be dependent.

By emasculine, I mean spineless nodding dogs.

Shamed just for being male smells a bit like a persecution complex

Yes women are so suspicious of men these days, oh he's only after one thing.


No. They are not. Saying they are does not make it so.



Not sure what the hell that is about.



'getting the girl' - seriously??? One does not 'get' another human being.

meaning as a male of the human species we generally approach woman to find love and procreate.

Yes, equality for women did happen quickly after centuries of being the possession of father/husband.
What exactly has changed for men? They no longer can control women's lives by putting a ring on their finger.

By putting a ring on the finger is a sign of love and commitment via marriage vows.

Women were considered 'more' feminine - oh dear, are women wearing trousers now and talking back?

Yes they were considered more feminine and gentle.


Crap like women are equal to men?

:rolleyes:

Three women all retired.



Lazy women wanting money for nothing....female immorality (still hasn't explained what exactly that means)... all women on TV are apparently super smart while all men are thundering eejits...

Prostitution is where the woman is the victim, they never seem to get into it because they want to.

Drag Queens usually do this so there is no bulge in their frock. No idea what it has to do with feminism....

A male with no proverbial balls



Loves women...as long as they look like 'proper' feminine women...
Yep Caring, sweet, sensitive, tolerant, gentle, compassionate.




I think the OP hankers for a by gone age when men were men and women were submissive and feminine and quiet and not taking men's jobs. His issues appear to be that he is living in the wrong place at the wrong time period and would perhaps prefer somewhere like Saudi Arabia...

Not at all, I just think this strive for women's equality leaves us men a little bit dumbfounded about our new role in society and sometimes with all the political correctness that goes with it, men are still adjusting.

Ok I kinda made a balls of the structure of that post, but I'm sure you can comprehend it.

Wibbs

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Being "emasculated" is an excuse for blokes who are big massive pussies.

If this was a debate in a parallel world where men were looking for equality you'd be roasted alive for the above for "shaming language". You're also promoting an idea of being a man that is completely in keeping with pre feminist cultural ideals. It's the reverse side of the coin of suggesting feminists = whinging women who can't get a man. Plus you're equating "pussies", a slang word for a female anatomy with something lesser. You see how far down the rabbit hole this guff can go?

Mike747

beano345 wrote: »

"The MRA stuff is f*cking abhorrent"

Tell that to the thousands of men who've gone through the divorce courts

We never should have legalized it.

megaten

lufties wrote: »

Not at all, I just think this strive for women's equality leaves us men a little bit dumbfounded about our new role in society and sometimes with all the political correctness that goes with it, men are still adjusting.

Why do you need someone to tell you your role in society as a man?
You don't need some sort sort of framework just do the best you can.

average hero

This is an odd one that sometimes get people riled up alright. There are complex issues that all combine into the one general argument.

Should women get paid the same for the same job and work? Undoubtedly YES!!!! Men and women should have the ability to be and act like who they want as long as it isn't illegal or go against the public good.

There has been a huge change in a relatively short time with regards to social positions and gender identity in the Western world. I think in many ways we are still playing catch up. For example, why has this (mainly) been just in the Western world? And the biggest one of all, why are a lot of men attracted to femininity and perceived beauty and women attracted to power, status and wealth? I'm not stating that ALL of either gender are attracted to it, but very generally.

Also, a lot of media espouses equal rights and women's independence, but will then have a women's section in their paper with an article on a model going to her rugby players match in England or such drivel.

For the record, certain women who I believe are complete legends include Ronda Rousey (cute!), Mary McAleese (full of class) and Angela Merkel (pragmatist and completely competent de facto leader of the EU)

Wibbs

beano345 wrote: »

"The MRA stuff is f*cking abhorrent"

Tell that to the thousands of men who've gone through the divorce courts

Indeed, yes divorce is generally stacked heavily against men, particularly in the US where most of this MRA stuff emanates. TBH I'd think myself eye swivelingly daft to get hitched on US soil. That's one aspect of modern culture that does need addressing and there are others. However the MRA types, like the more extreme Feminist types before them all too often extrapolate from examples of real inequality and tend to see it everywhere in increasingly shrill and daft ways as they filter the world through this new viewpoint. Egged on by their fellows on the interweb it all gets a bit silly after a while. Thankfully the vast majority tend to ignore them.

Bannasidhe

lufties wrote: »

Not at all, I just think this strive for women's equality leaves us men a little bit dumbfounded about our new role in society and sometimes with all the political correctness that goes with it, men are still adjusting.

Ok I kinda made a balls of the structure of that post, but I'm sure you can comprehend it.

Your role in society is what ever you want your role to be in society. Same goes for women.

It is no longer Man must be butch macho boss provider protector and generally John Wayne to be 'real' man and woman must be meek nurturing submissive cared for protected to be 'real' woman.

Men are free to be themselves - and so are women. Freedom can be scary - for all genders. But don't blame women dude. Women just want the same choices as men - sadly that includes sometimes being a dick - just like some men.

You wanna be a lumberjack - be a damn lumberjack but that doesn't mean you can't change a nappy or play dress up as princesses with your daughter and it also doesn't mean that if Jane also wants to be a lumberjack that in any way impacts on your lumberjacking ability.

SamAK

Wibbs wrote: »

Sam, that's not a feminist thing, she just sounds like a twat, no "ism" required. Apologies, but that's what it sounds like.

I think you're reading too much into it:), I've known her for quite a while and have only just started the relationship. It's my own fault anyway, there's been six months of flirting and gentle teasing and referring to her as 'wench'...it's a running joke we have now...and one we both enjoy winding each-other up about..

All you have to go on is my original post, so you don't have the benefit of seeing the bigger picture to assist in the formation of your opinion Trust in me though, she's far from a twat, so apologies if my post is misleading.

I just thought it was something interesting and humorous to add to the discussion, although now I see that there's no room for light-hearted discussion in this particular can of worms venomous snakes..:o

Anyway, i'll let this sh1t storm of a thread continue. Bon Voyage! :pac:

Nooooooo come back with your lightheartedness pleeeease >.<

Mike747

This is what today's feminists believe:

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

TheLastMohican

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What did I just read???

Haven't a clue. Don't tell me it was Woman's Own The Hollybough?

Muise...

Mike747 wrote: »

This is what today's feminists believe:

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

No, it's not.

lufties

Mike747 wrote: »

This is what today's feminists believe:

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

whats a piv?

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

How many put themselves forward in the first place though?

Then you have the voters themselves http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-gender-ourselves/201301/why-aren-t-women-voting-women

"many reports still show that female voters remain reluctant to vote for a woman. In an AP analysis of data from the 2006 American National Election Study Pilot Test, researchers found that when it came to selecting a candidate for president, gender matters more for women than for men. And that while women are more likely to vote for a candidate because she is female, they are also more likely to dismiss her for that very same reason."

Now that's in the US, but I'd not be too surprised to find similar elsewhere.

That's more than a bit of a fallacy. It is certainly less cut and dried than often promoted as fact.
All sorts of reasons, but gender ain't one of them. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/07/feminism-domestic-violence-men And given that men are less likely to report it in the first place. Even if it was only 20 per cent, why would men report it? What support structures do they have in place? How many mens shelters, how many mens hotlines? Eh that would be none.

Like I said not nearly so cut and dried as is imagined or promoted.

Honestly, I would be reluctant to vote for a woman of childbearing age or who had a family, simply because of over commitment. Politics is a hard game with long hours.

I don't and never did buy the line of having it all, everything comes with a price.

While everyone picked on Sara Palin for various reasons, the main reason I would not vote for her is all the kids she has, including a new baby. I know what having ONE child is like, how it absorbs your focus, never mind 8 or nine.

While its all nicey nicey to talk about maternity leave rights, in politics you need to make hard decisions and sometimes under extreme time pressures, especially if its part of a global military player like the US.

Call me a sexist, I really don't care. I am practical at the bottom line.

seenitall

Mike747 wrote: »

We never should have legalized it.

You're being serious, aren't you?

Wibbs

megaten wrote: »

Why do you need someone to tell you your role in society as a man?
You don't need some sort sort of framework just do the best you can.

I'd kinda disagree here M. Throughout history and cultures men, particularly young men had such frameworks. From huntergatherer tribal types being initiated into adulthood, to men going through apprenticeships, even mandatory military service, being instructed by men who weren't their fathers. While women have some of this, it doesn't seem to be nearly as built in as men across time and culture. It seems men do need, or might benefit from some sort of framework to get through this phase of their lives. Effed if I know how that would work today though. An interesting study for someone might be to compare Israeli men who have mandatory military service with men from a similar western culture who don't and play spot the diffs in things like mental illness, delinquency, etc. I wonder would any effect be present?

Bannasidhe

Mike747 wrote: »

This is what today's feminists believe:

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

Nope.

That is what the writer of that blog says is so.

What she (assuming it is a she) has to say is as representative of what all feminists believe as your statement is of what all men believe.

Mike747

Mike747 wrote: »

This is what today's feminists believe:

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

No - that's what some nutcase believes.

I could link to some crazy study written by men and claim it to be what all MRAs believe, but I won't because that adds nothing to the discussion except to rile those taking part.

It's inflammatory nonsense and well you know it.

beano345

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, yes divorce is generally stacked heavily against men, particularly in the US where most of this MRA stuff emanates. TBH I'd think myself eye swivelingly daft to get hitched on US soil. That's one aspect of modern culture that does need addressing and there are others. However the MRA types, like the more extreme Feminist types before them all too often extrapolate from examples of real inequality and tend to see it everywhere in increasingly shrill and daft ways as they filter the world through this new viewpoint. Egged on by their fellows on the interweb it all gets a bit silly after a while. Thankfully the vast majority tend to ignore them.

I think marriage is insane full stop but its a rawer deal in the us I could see how the MRA could pick up extremists but I can also see the sense in the whole mgtow thing