stolen firearms article

yubabill1

BTW, can we have ONE thread that doesn't end up in chaos?

It's like a broken record.

Mods - can you just pull any comment likely to drag down a thread?

yubabill1

I've found the EU consultation report, I know the link is on Boards previously

ec.europa.eu/dgs/home.../public-consultation/.../consulting_0026_en.htm‎

"A total number of 85 673 responses were received."

"The vast majority of responses (95.6%) were from individual citizens, with 4% were from private organisations and 0.3 % from members of public authorities."

"Hunting and target shooting associations were well mobilised to participate in the survey:"

"Overall, respondents were opposed to the suggestion of further action on EU level in this area. For instance, 92% of respondent opposed extending the list of prohibited firearms, as defined in Annex I Part II of Directive 91/477/EEC."

yubabill1

Final instalment of rant:

Don't think these phone surveys pull people randomly from the phone directory.

They are carefully chosen.

So, you bury a report from an open consultation with 85,000 respondents and rig a phone survey with 1,000 respondents to fit the white paper you already had compiled in advance of the consultation.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

we were consulted on this last year

Except that we weren't - that was a different consultation by a different group in a different jurisdiction for input into a different set of laws. Still important because it feeds back into us, but not quite the same thing as a local consultation. (And the people who were pushing it were supposed to be anti-private-firearms-ownership so I'm not sure we can hold it up as an example of how it should be done)

All you need is a journo with an open mind.......but I don't remember meeting one lately.

There are a few, we've had some good coverage over the years from them, but the paul williams eejits can write more sensationalist stuff faster and sell more, so it's an uphill slog.

1shot16

yubabill1 wrote: »

using this guy's figures, 284 firearms stolen every year, 900 illegal firearms seized by gardai every year.

Where would criminals get firearms if they could not steal them from us?

Most of them are probably just sub 12ftlb air rifles and pistols from the north that are bought without a licence up there and brought down...

A 2j or 3j air pistol is considered a handgun for us :rolleyes:

juice1304

1shot16 wrote: »

Most of them are probably just sub 12ftlb air rifles and pistols from the north that are bought without a licence up there and brought down...

A 2j or 3j air pistol is considered a handgun for us :rolleyes:

You need a licence for an air rifle in the north also. Just not in the uk itself.

yubabill1

Had a good rant this morning - needed to blow off some steam.

Think I looked up this survey from the OP article the other day- remember reading 900-odd people interviewed by phone - hardy a representative sample of 500million EU citizens:

"The Eurobarometer survey showed 71pc of the population expect an increase in gun violence in the next five years, compared to an average of 58pc across the continent.

But the poll also found that one in 10 gun owners in Ireland keep their firearm for personal protection."

Also see the EU consultation report has lost its Appendix, where the breakdown of answers was supplied.

You know they are struggling when they quote selected single opinions in a survey of 85,000-odd - but that type of thing hasn't stopped them before.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Final instalment of rant:

Don't think these phone surveys pull people randomly from the phone directory.

They are carefully chosen.

So, you bury a report from an open consultation with 85,000 respondents and rig a phone survey with 1,000 respondents to fit the white paper you already had compiled in advance of the consultation.

Nope it seemingly IS random selection done by a computorised random phone number selection. I was actually called by the Red C company about four months ago to take part in a phone survey.Spent more of the survey questioning the pollster [who was in the UK] about how this works.
However the questions are so ambigiously worded that a smart pollster could make it sound like the exact opposite to your opinion,and you then also have the option of being kept on record for further opinion polls...Read,if it was an anti gun survey,and you were an anti,whats the betting YOU will be called again on a topic thats dear to your heart?

sfakiaman

Back in the day when I was studying sociology as part of a degree course with the London School of Economics, we were shown how questionnaires could be worded so as to lead the respondent into the answer desired. Politically based pollsters are very adept at this.

tac foley

yubabill1 wrote: »

...But the poll also found that one in 10 gun owners in Ireland keep their firearm for personal protection...

That statement just has to be an outright lie.

I'm betting that the question was along the lines of 'if attacked, and you had the option of doing so, would you use a legally-owned firearm to defend your life?' OR, 'would you like to be able to use your legally-owned firearm to defend yourself?'

As we ALL know, possession of a firearm for personal protection is NOT permitted in the RoI.

It IS permitted in the north, and around 3000 people whose lives are KNOWN to be at risk have permits to possess a personal handgun to defend their lives if necessary. The UKNI Department of Justice figures are -

•A total of 2,924 licenses have ‘Personal Protection Weapon’ among the conditions of use. These holders include ex-PSNI, civilians and prison officers.

Remember the old saying - 'there are lies, damned lies, and statistics'.

tac

Sparks

What odds that the 1 in 10 is somehow tied to a "loose" definition of what "Ireland" means?

padmundo

From that article:

"Two methods being looked at by the Commission are specific "deactivation techniques"" to ensure firearms cannot be used once taken off the street, and marking guns with serial numbers when they are manufactured."

The latter is hardly a new method now... total hogwash.

Sparks

Yeah, that last one's been in Irish firearms law since 1924 (the principal act is 1925 but there was a tide-us-over-till-the-first-dail-sorts-itself-out act in 1924). Even firearms not made with serial numbers (like, say, paintball markers) are covered - you make some sort of identifying mark on them and that gets used as the serial number.

So if they had that much figured out and settled in 1924...

tac foley

Most firearms made since the introduction of mass-production methods in the early part of the 19th century have had serial numbers on them.

This is hardly rocket science.

In most countries that have firearms' laws, removal or defacing a serial number is a criminal offence. In the USA it is a Federal Offence attracting a long prison term if you are found with such a gun in your possession. However, it IS permitted to 'de-farb' a black powder firing muzzle-loader in order to make it look historically correct, or HC as it is known among re-enactors, but this is only because in most states a black powder gun is not actually classed as a firearm as the term is understood in the most of the rest of the free world. As such, firearms of this kind are exempt from any kind of licensing procedure. No convicted felon in the USA may possess ANY kind of a firearm that fires a cartridge, but they ARE able to own a muzzle-loader.

It used to be that single-shot muzzleloading guns of all kinds - rifles, shotguns and pistols - could be sold without any form of licensing requirement in Germany, France and Belgium, providing that you are over 18 and have no criminal record. However, this has recently changed in Germany - the rest I don't know about.

tac

rowa

tac foley wrote: »

As we ALL know, possession of a firearm for personal protection is NOT permitted in the RoI.



tac

Well it used to be until fairly recently, that you could. For instance Ben Dunne the supermarket owner had a .38 revolver for personal protection, and that was long before the brophy case when pistols became generally available 10 years ago. Maybe since the good friday agreement this has been stopped.

tac foley

I am corrected.

TVM

tac

Sparks

It was never anywhere even remotely within an asses roar of 1 in 10 though, and those pistols weren't licenced - they were issued. Different mechanism completely, different kind of oversight, different set of people involved, different decision making process and so on. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and - you guessed it - the 1957 bolivian world cup soccer team.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

It was never anywhere even remotely within an asses roar of 1 in 10 though, and those pistols weren't licenced - they were issued. Different mechanism completely, different kind of oversight, different set of people involved, different decision making process and so on. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and - you guessed it - the 1957 bolivian world cup soccer team.

You mean a different set of rules for the higher-ups, well i am surprised :rolleyes:. I presume sparks some sort of training was given to people issued with personal protection firearms ? Surely they weren't just allowed to wander off into the public with a loaded gun ?

Sparks

Couldn't tell you rowa, almost everything I know about that programme comes second-or-third-hand at best and is strictly anecdotal.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope it seemingly IS random selection done by a computorised random phone number selection. I was actually called by the Red C company about four months ago to take part in a phone survey.Spent more of the survey questioning the pollster [who was in the UK] about how this works.

I am particularly suspicious as to whether they include all the people polled in the final result.

tac foley

Well, If I had been issued with a handgun for my own protection, I sure as hell wouldn't be passing that information over the phone to a total stranger 'claiming' to be from a polling organisation.

It was twelve years before my next door neighbour found out that I was in the Army, and that was from watching a TV programme, not me.

Unless you caught a glimpse of me loading a car to go shooting, you'd never know that I was a shooter, either - I don't discuss it with anybody, unless an acquaintance asks me directly.

And of course, none of YOU know who I am, and I spent YEARS walking around in the north with firearms of one kind or another.

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley

In most countries that have firearms' laws, removal or defacing a serial number is a criminal offence. In the USA it is a Federal Offence attracting a long prison term if you are found with such a gun in your possession. However, it IS permitted to 'de-farb' a black powder firing muzzle-loader in order to make it look historically correct,

Not quite....
You can have a firearm in the US with no serial or any other markings whatsoever...IF you built it yourself and have no intention of selling ,swopping ,trading or otherwise letting it out of your possesion even to your next of kin when you die.The gun is yours until death. I refer you to the many AR 15 style platforms and designs and 80 % finished lower recivers.Those are the easiest to do , due to the many parts kits out there ,but there have been plenty of skilled folks over there who have built their own types of just about every imagneable gun.

It used to be that single-shot muzzleloading guns of all kinds - rifles, shotguns and pistols - could be sold without any form of licensing requirement in Germany, France and Belgium, providing that you are over 18 and have no criminal record. However, this has recently changed in Germany - the rest I don't know about.

Dunno about France and Belguim ,but Germany you can certainly still buy single shot long or short muzzle loaders, rifled or smoothbore , or their kits over the counter.Good luck trying to get the powder mind. Or a revolver or multi barrelled pistol .:)

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

tac foley

Not quite....
You can have a firearm in the US with no serial or any other markings whatsoever...IF you built it yourself and have no intention of selling ,swopping ,trading or otherwise letting it out of your possesion even to your next of kin when you die.The gun is yours until death. I refer you to the many AR 15 style platforms and designs and 80 % finished lower recivers.Those are the easiest to do , due to the many parts kits out there ,but there have been plenty of skilled folks over there who have built their own types of just about every imagneable gun.

Yup, this I know, as I have a flintlok rifle built for me with a 'hidden' serial number of my choice. I was referring, wrongly it seems, to commercially-produced FINISHED firearms, not kits.

Dunno about France and Belguim ,but Germany you can certainly still buy single shot long or short muzzle loaders, rifled or smoothbore , or their kits over the counter.Good luck trying to get the powder mind. Or a revolver or multi barrelled pistol .:)

Thank you for the corrections - I'm just harking back to the eight years when we lived in Germany, when even I, as a furriner, bought a couple of percussion and flintlock guns, without the need to have a waffenbesitzkarte.

tac