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Landlord holding deposit, have to be out in the morning

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24

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    #32
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    And in light of what has been said about the tenants somewhat patchy history of rent payment, I will echo what I said above that both parties need to get their ducks in a row with regards what has or has not been paid. The tenant should have some form of paper trail for rent payments (be it bank statements or receipts if rent was paid in cash); it's going to be difficult to prove a history of payment otherwise.


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    #33
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    djimi wrote: »
    And in light of what has been said about the tenants somewhat patchy history of rent payment, I will echo what I said above that both parties need to get their ducks in a row with regards what has or has not been paid. The tenant should have some form of paper trail for rent payments (be it bank statements or receipts if rent was paid in cash); it's going to be difficult to prove a history of payment otherwise.

    Bang on, this is not one of those disputes where the grievance is subjective, both parties should be able to prove conclusively that rent was or wasn't paid.


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    #34
    yankinlk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    If the LL is motivated to sell for real (and not just using an excuse to evict tenant) i have to ask - has the tenant been allowing viewings all this time? Have they mutually accommodated each other?


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    #35
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    davo10 wrote: »
    Notice given early December.

    notice is invalid as wasnt the correct notice. You cant just extend the notice period.

    If you mess up you have to start again so written notice from now for the 16 weeks would have to be served by the LL.


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    #36
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    To be honest, the notice period (while a valid issue) is not the biggest problem here. If the tenant is in arrears for rent then that is an issue that is going to have to be sorted one way or another. The notice might come into play in so far as if the landlord needs the tenant out now then it might make more sense to write off the arrears rather than wait 16 weeks to get the property back, but either way the issue of the arrears is going to have to be sorted, be it now or in June.


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    #37
    FatFrog87
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭FatFrog87


    Think best way to handle it is. Inform the landlord that you were relying on the deposit back to move and that you now can't afford to. That you will need the 16 weeks notice required to save for a new deposit. If landlord is selling the place, you can be sure that deposit will be paid back straight away.

    If she has missed payments and wants to do the right thing she could put a payment plan in place and pay it off over a period of time.


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    #38
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    it is infact a very important point.

    Demanding valid notice gives the OP the time to actually figure out the situation regarding arrears and to prove that they are not in arrears or if they are to figure out their next step.

    Not sure how you think calling out that the OP has more time to sort this than they believe is not a key point to call out.


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    #39
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Im not saying that the notice issue isnt important; Im simply saying that right now it is not the most important issue. If the tenant can sort the issue of the arrears then they will be moving now (as they have already found somewhere that they want to move into), so I would be using my time to get that issue sorted rather than spending too much time arguing a notice period. It sounds like no proper notice was issued by the landlord either way; my reading of this is that the tenant jumped before they were formally pushed.


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    #40
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Let us suppose that some rent is due. Obviously, that should be verified and the amount calculated.

    The tenant could then negotiate with the landlord for some compensation for surrendering possession without the proper notice.

    It would be convenient (particularly for the tenant) if the two amounts were about the same.


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    #41
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    djimi wrote: »
    Im not saying that the notice issue isnt important; Im simply saying that right now it is not the most important issue. .

    actually it is the most important issue right now. Read the title "have to be out in the morning" aka this morning.

    First step for the OP's friend is to ensure they have a roof over their head, then they can worry over the arrears claims.


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    #42
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    D3PO wrote: »
    actually it is the most important issue right now. Read the title "have to be out in the morning" aka this morning.

    First step for the OP's friend is to ensure they have a roof over their head, then they can worry over the arrears claims.

    Yes but them having to be out by this morning is a self imposed deadline as they want to move into their new house; it is not because of a notice period imposed by the landlord. They have a roof over their head; they arent going anywhere one way or another.

    One question I would ask the OP is how much notice was the landlord given of the tenants intention to move? Did the tenant give anything like the 56 days notice that they are obliged to give?


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    #43
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Landlord has issues a notice of rent arrears though, right? Could very well be that the next step for LL is a notice of termination.


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    #44
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    How long has the tenant been in arrears? The OP seems to imply that this might be going back a while.
    Did the landlord make efforts to sort it out at the time?


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    #45
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Threshold are the contact here, not PRTB, PRTB will not come into play until Threshold have done.


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    #46
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Threshold are only an advice organization; you can straight to the PRTB without ever needing to contact Threshold.


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    #47
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Threshold are the contact here, not PRTB, PRTB will not come into play until Threshold have done.

    What do you mean? Threshold are an independent advice service. There is no requirement to go to them.


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    #48
    percy212
    Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭percy212


    I cant understand why the landlord would allow all those purportedly owed amounts to linger for years. In his shoes I would be pleased with the sale and happy that the tenant had cared for the house. I would happily return the deposit and wish her well in her new place.

    In the tenants shoes I would dig in my heels. No deposit no move. 16 weeks from now ( or until written notice is given) while receiving no rent (already have a new place) should set this penny smart pound foolish landlord ingrate straight.


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    #49
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    percy212 wrote: »
    I cant understand why the landlord would allow all those purportedly owed amounts to linger for years. In his shoes I would be pleased with the sale and happy that the tenant had cared for the house. I would happily return the deposit and wish her well in her new place.

    In the tenants shoes I would dig in my heels. No deposit no move. 16 weeks from now ( or until written notice is given) while receiving no rent (already have a new place) should set this penny smart pound foolish landlord ingrate straight.

    He could be using it an a faster avenue to evict the tenant. It doesn't matter how long the LL lingered, if rent is in arrears then it is due.


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    #50
    OneWayAround
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭OneWayAround


    Am I reading this wrong? Hasn't the OP said that the tenant has paid all the rent for 12 years only that she was late paying 2 or 3 times? She did however pay the rent. The landlord claims that rent is owed but the tenent denies this.
    Why is everyone taking the landlords side? After 12 years the landlord hasn't even given proper notice and is now refusing to give the deposit back so the tenant can move into a new home with her kids.
    OP, tell your friend to stay the 16 weeks until she can afford to move into her new home if the landlord wont pay back the deposit.


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    #51
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    OneWayAround wrote: »
    Am I reading this wrong? Hasn't the OP said that the tenant has paid all the rent for 12 years only that she was late paying 2 or 3 times? She did however pay the rent. The landlord claims that rent is owed but the tenent denies this.
    Why is everyone taking the landlords side? After 12 years the landlord hasn't even given proper notice and is now refusing to give the deposit back so the tenant can move into a new home with her kids.
    OP, tell your friend to stay the 16 weeks until she can afford to move into her new home if the landlord wont pay back the deposit.

    Its not entirely clear what is owed. We are getting one side of the story, and it paints the picture of someone who has been rather haphazard in their approach to rent payment. It may well be that all arrears have been cleared, but if they have admitted to forgetting to pay rent on occasion, then whats to say that there arent more occasions where the rent wasnt paid and it was still outstanding?

    The bottom line is that the landlord needs to be very specific about what is owed, and the tenant needs to find any and all records of rent payments (be it late or on time). Anything other than hard facts is pure guesswork. This one is not about taking sides; one party is correct and the other isnt, and it should be possible to determine which it is on paper.


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    #52
    OneWayAround
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭OneWayAround


    djimi wrote: »
    Its not entirely clear what is owed. We are getting one side of the story, and it paints the picture of someone who has been rather haphazard in their approach to rent payment. It may well be that all arrears have been cleared, but if they have admitted to forgetting to pay rent on occasion, then whats to say that there arent more occasions where the rent wasnt paid and it was still outstanding?

    The bottom line is that the landlord needs to be very specific about what is owed, and the tenant needs to find any and all records of rent payments (be it late or on time). Anything other than hard facts is pure guesswork. This one is not about taking sides; one party is correct and the other isnt, and it should be possible to determine which it is on paper.

    They forgot to pay their rent on time on 2 or 3 occasions over the space of 12 years. They then paid their rent, I don't think there's anything unreasonable about that. I'm sure most people forget to pay their rent on time occasionally.
    Of course all the records should be searched but why suspect the tenant of being wrong? The landlord is kicking out a tenant of 12 years with little notice and showing little regard for her or her kids. It's the landlord who sounds like a less than desirable individual.


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    #53
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    OneWayAround wrote: »
    They forgot to pay their rent on time on 2 or 3 occasions over the space of 12 years. They then paid their rent, I don't think there's anything unreasonable about that. I'm sure most people forget to pay their rent on time occasionally.
    Of course all the records should be searched but why suspect the tenant of being wrong? The landlord is kicking out a tenant of 12 years with little notice and showing little regard for her or her kids. It's the landlord who sounds like a less than desirable individual.

    Its not normal to forget to pay your rent; it should be the biggest expense coming out of your account each month. The OP said that she forgot to pay it "a few times" and also mentioned RA and that the tenant thinks that the rent may not have been paid that way on occasion. Bottom line is that this is not a very acceptable way of looking after your rent payments; its the tenants responsibility to ensure that it hits the landlords account.

    Im not suspecting either party; Im simply going on the information that we have been given.

    Its worth bearing in mind that (again going on the information that we have), the landlord did not officially kick her out, and she found a place and decided to move of her own accord (any by the sounds of it without giving proper notice of termination). Im not saying that the landlord is an angel (I have no idea either way) and Im certainly not siding with them. Im just going on what we have been told.


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    #54
    OneWayAround
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭OneWayAround


    djimi wrote: »
    Its not normal to forget to pay your rent; it should be the biggest expense coming out of your account each month. The OP said that she forgot to pay it "a few times" and also mentioned RA and that the tenant thinks that the rent may not have been paid that way on occasion. Bottom line is that this is not a very acceptable way of looking after your rent payments; its the tenants responsibility to ensure that it hits the landlords account.

    Im not suspecting either party; Im simply going on the information that we have been given.

    Its worth bearing in mind that (again going on the information that we have), the landlord did not officially kick her out, and she found a place and decided to move of her own accord (any by the sounds of it without giving proper notice of termination). Im not saying that the landlord is an angel (I have no idea either way) and Im certainly not siding with them. Im just going on what we have been told.

    Going on what we've been told, the tenant has always paid the rent, over 12 years she was late paying on 2 or 3 occasions.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord gave their tenant of 12 years a phone warning to get out as they were selling the house.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord only brought up any claim of non payment of rent when refusing to return the deposit to the tenant.
    Going on what we've been told, we can have a very good idea that the landlord is no angel, we can tell the opposite is the case. Just going on what we have been toldof course.


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    #55
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    DId the tenant know that she owed money to the landlord?
    I can understand rent being occasionally late in 12 years but not missing payments.


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    #56
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    Djimi is right and there are always two sides to every story. Its best to try not to get overly fixated on one particular point and outline the plethora of scenarios depending on the exact situation.

    With the greatest of respect somebody who forgets to pay their rent 2 or 3 times and also is short a tenner here and 12 quid there every now and again on the rent has a question mark over them in terms of how well up on their finances and expendature they really are.

    It is perfectly plausible that the LL is right about the arrears, if the tenant refutes that then its not going to be very hard for them to prove otherwise and even if the LL doesnt agree with their proof its not going to be up to him in the end as when the tenant takes a case with the PRTB they will decide what the situation in fact is.


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    #57
    yankinlk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    this thread needs "lock thread untill OP provides more info" button


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    #58
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    OneWayAround wrote: »
    Going on what we've been told, the tenant has always paid the rent, over 12 years she was late paying on 2 or 3 occasions.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord gave their tenant of 12 years a phone warning to get out as they were selling the house.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord only brought up any claim of non payment of rent when refusing to return the deposit to the tenant.
    Going on what we've been told, we can have a very good idea that the landlord is no angel, we can tell the opposite is the case. Just going on what we have been toldof course.

    Going on what we have been told :) the Landlord issued an incorrect notice. The tenant can agree to a shorter period if they want though. If they do not they can ignore that notice and remain on until the landlord issues the correct 16 week notice.

    The fact that the OP lived in the house for 12 years is not really relevant. All that entitles them too is a longer notice period. It is still the lanlords house and if they wish to sell it then they can.

    However, and this is the important bit imo, the landlord has issued a notice of arrears. The landlord can now issue a 14 notice of arrears and if they arrears are not paid the landlord can evict the tenant.

    The tenant needs to get proof that rent has been paid or come up with the arrears or the LL can evict and keep the deposit (assuming the arrears exceeds the deposit).


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    #59
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    OneWayAround wrote: »
    Going on what we've been told, the tenant has always paid the rent, over 12 years she was late paying on 2 or 3 occasions.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord gave their tenant of 12 years a phone warning to get out as they were selling the house.
    Going on what we've been told, the landlord only brought up any claim of non payment of rent when refusing to return the deposit to the tenant.
    Going on what we've been told, we can have a very good idea that the landlord is no angel, we can tell the opposite is the case. Just going on what we have been toldof course.

    Whatever you or I might think of either party, it makes no odds. A dispute has been raised by the landlord about rent arrears; its now up to both parties to make their case. There are no sides to take here; its something that can be proven or disproven on paper. Whether I think the tenant might be guilty or you think that the landlord is no angel is completely irrelevant.


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    #60
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    I really don't get these people saying its grand to miss rent payments if your're renting for a long time. I've been renting for three years and haven't missed a payment. Am I entitled to one free month now or something? Is it like a coffee shop loyalty card, pay three years rent get one month free? Some people really have absolutely no conception of how the world works. I'd love to see the situation if they were landlords and had people missing payments.


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    #61
    OneWayAround
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭OneWayAround


    newbie2013 wrote: »
    Shes been telling me she's paid all what she owed. In the 12 years she did miss a few payments, not that she didn't have the money. She just forgot , maybe 2 or 3 Times in the 12 years.
    newbie2013 wrote: »
    She did pay it. Maybe a week or 2 after

    People seemed to have ignored the second post I quoted there. They've stuck with the thought that she forgot to pay the rent means she didn't pay the rent.


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