Pushed out of the market

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

My issue with Rent, is that you don't own the place.

When i finish paying my mortgage in 20 years I'll be under 55 and have 10 working years left, I can then top up my pension instead of paying rent or mortgage.

If i'm renting I have to pay rent till the day i retire, and then either find an new income or move as i'll have to continue paying rent.

I could also sell the house and move to the sun, live off the difference between house and house purchases or rent when i'm living away.

Unless you can't pat the loan. If a loan is affordable and stress tested then fine, what happens if interest rates double in next five years and one income disappears. Have you stress tested for that. A family in a rented house that becomes too expensive can down size with ease.

I am not saying all buying is wrong or all renting is wrong, I am saying each to their own. I also know people who have paid off the home loan, retired and are stuck in a monster of a house they refuse to sell out of a loyalty to the children, so spend a large part of their pension keeping a museum.

MouseTail

The whole renting v buying argument is silly. No one could possibly renting is financially advantageous over buying over the longer term. A rental sector is hugely important in socioeconomic terms, allowing labour market mobility, mixed residential development, immigration, housing for low wage workers, youth independence etc.

However, most middle and higher income people in Ireland choose to buy by family formation stage (some earlier, some later, very few never).

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

Renting is more expensive than a mortgage. how would a person renting save money, if eh manages to then the mortgage holder will save more?
by 55 the person who owns a property will be in a much better position.

For maybe the past year or so rent is equivalent to what a mortgage would be, but interest can rise as well as fall. If interest doubles then a owner is stuck, remember 2008, 2009 etc. People forget way too fast.

Pro Hoc Vice

MouseTail wrote: »

The whole renting v buying argument is silly. No one could possibly renting is financially advantageous over buying over the longer term. A rental sector is hugely important in socioeconomic terms, allowing labour market mobility, mixed residential development, immigration, housing for low wage workers, youth independence etc.

However, most middle and higher income people in Ireland choose to buy by family formation stage (some earlier, some later, very few never).

In Europe most rent because of an excellent system. But the main reason the same people buy in Ireland is that the renting system is so bad compared to buying, it's not that buying of itself is good its just better than really bad.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

say there is a 15% drop that 45k on 300.
rent in the 3 years to 2017 will be 54k.

negative equity only affects people when they sell. People should have learnt that they should be buying properties that will suit there needs for longer then 3 years.

Just look at boards you will see exactly the same arguments made in 2006, 2007. Negative equity is a very real problem for tens of thousands of families that don't want to sell but are being forced by simple mats to do so.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

No mention of the fact that you have an asset at the end.

My mortgage is about 500 less than rent. ( bought in May 2012)

For people with wife and kids ownership also offers added security

Yes, you did your home work, there was a real saving allowing a comfort zone. That is a proposition that adds up. But this thread is about the fact that today employed people are bring priced out of certain areas (sounds like something I heard a few years back) if people follow the madness with the buy at all costs (forgive the pun) we are just setting up another fall.

MouseTail

infosys wrote: »

In Europe most rent because of an excellent system. But the main reason the same people buy in Ireland is that the renting system is so bad compared to buying, it's not that buying of itself is good its just better than really bad.

That's actually a bit of a myth, not borne out by the stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

The real shocker in the stats is the low level of high density housing we have. Of all Europeans we have an aversion to apartment living, and some sort of cultural tie to land, albeit a garden of some type, bizarre when you compare our weather to some of those countries. Its not sustainable as we are discovering.

Pro Hoc Vice

MouseTail wrote: »

That's actually a bit of a myth, not borne out by the stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Europe

The real shocker in the stats is the low level of high density housing we have. Of all Europeans we have an aversion to apartment living, and some sort of cultural tie to land, albeit a garden of some type, bizarre when you compare our weather to some of those countries. Its not sustainable as we are discovering.

One of biggest economies in EU Germany 46% France 58% Netherlands 56% Austria 52%

Ireland over 77%. As and old saying goes in Germany they rent their house and buy their TV in Ireland its the other way around. Funny Germany has less than half of their houses owner occupier and they are bailing the rest of Europe out, for a myth they are on the right side of it.

But as quoting wiki is like backing up an argument with crayons and finger painted charts, http://qz.com/167887/germany-has-one-of-the-worlds-lowest-homeownership-rates/

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/mar/19/brits-buy-germans-rent

the_syco

the article wrote:

Rowena Quinn, the owner of Hunters Estate Agents, said that just "two to three years ago" she would have been lucky if a dozen viewers turned up to an open viewing – or if she received a single bid for such properties.

But, she told the Sunday Independent: "Now we would expect up to 50 people to turn up in an hour."

Maybe it's because two or three years ago, everyone was waiting for the bust to level out, and you now get 50 people in as the prices have dropped.

But you'd wonder how many of that 50 have mortgage approval?

ted1

infosys wrote: »

Just look at boards you will see exactly the same arguments made in 2006, 2007. Negative equity is a very real problem for tens of thousands of families that don't want to sell but are being forced by simple mats to do so.

Granted, but its not 2006 or 2007.

Prices are down to a reasonable level.

Pro Hoc Vice

ted1 wrote: »

Granted, but its not 2006 or 2007.

Prices are down to a reasonable level.

There are reports of large hikes in certain parts of Dublin, and reasonable is only reasonable if interest rates stay low, if credit remains available or a long as people have access to cash.

Glenbhoy

murphaph wrote: »

Cash buyers just as likely to be foreign investors so long as the rental yields hold up.

Really, I'd love to see some actual proof of this as I really can't see that this would be the case.

Glenbhoy

infosys wrote: »

There are reports of large hikes in certain parts of Dublin, and reasonable is only reasonable if interest rates stay low, if credit remains available or a long as people have access to cash.

Credit is not available, all the stats prove that. Lending in 2013 was 2.5BN, that's not significantly higher than the lending in each quarter of 2009 and is down from an annual total of approx 40Bn in 2006.

ted1

Glenbhoy wrote: »

Really, I'd love to see some actual proof of this as I really can't see that this would be the case.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/property-investment-firm-hibernia-reit-in-67m-deal-1.1694748


Professional land lords entering the market.

MouseTail

ted1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/commercial-property/property-investment-firm-hibernia-reit-in-67m-deal-1.1694748


Professional land lords entering the market.

There are other established and planned REITs also. Listed on lse as well as ise, whilst there is some Irish cash going in, much appears to be foreign investment.

dinnyirwin

Pushed out of the market. You have to laugh.
I want to buy a house on Howth head. I've been pushed out of the market though.
Guess i'll just have to stick with what i can afford then.

And as a working class person, I always get a laugh out of working class people describing themselves as middle class.

lima

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Pushed out of the market. You have to laugh.
I want to buy a house on Howth head. I've been pushed out of the market though.
Guess i'll just have to stick with what i can afford then.

And as a working class person, I always get a laugh out of working class people describing themselves as middle class.

It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people. Same with Australia, with the 'Fair play, Good on you mate' a core part of their culture.

Good on anyone who aspires to be middle class.

lima

MouseTail wrote: »

There are other established and planned REITs also. Listed on lse as well as ise, whilst there is some Irish cash going in, much appears to be foreign investment.

With these RIET's and Kennedy-Wilson types buying blocks of apartments it's clear that the people are always the bottom rung of the ladder in terms of priority for the govt.

However, if all these companies are going to be putting these apts up for rent, will this ease the rental bubble? and as such, will cheaper rent stop cash buyers entering the market, and will this cause prices to fall?

Repossessions may not happen like they should, but if all these little things happen at the same time then maybe this may bring prices down a little more than people expect.

dinnyirwin

lima wrote: »

It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people. Same with Australia, with the 'Fair play, Good on you mate' a core part of their culture.

Good on anyone who aspires to be middle class.

Imagine my laughter reading that from one of the most whingey, insulting, name calling, hope you all die, posters ive ever seen on the internet.
You should read back all your own posts.

Nothing wrong with wanting better for yourself. But it looks like a lot of people want to be able to be something that they are not and then cry because they arent.

Put in the work to get the money required to live in your desired area and you will be slapped on the back and told well done. Cry about being priced out of an area you cant afford and you can fuk off and get a life.

And if you aspire to be something, it does not make it so. If you are middle class you are middle class. You are not middle class if you are working class and aspire to be middle class. Nothing wrong with aspirations, but thats all they are until you get there.

So are you middle class or working class yourself? If you are middle class what is that makes you personally middle class?

dinnyirwin

So its been fun but I must say my goodbyes to boards. The The_Morrigan, after some disagreements over the last few weeks has made it clear he doesnt want me here anymore and at last my leg is well enough to go back out into the world and not be bedridden anymore.

Its been fun though. And thankyou all for the brilliant chat over the last few weeks.

MouseTail

dinnyirwin wrote: »

So its been fun but I must say my goodbyes to boards. The The_Morrigan, after some disagreements over the last few weeks has made it clear he doesnt want me here anymore and at last my leg is well enough to go back out into the world and not be bedridden anymore.

Its been fun though. And thankyou all for the brilliant chat over the last few weeks.

Sorry to see you go Dinny, lots of common sense advice, pragmatic views and informed opinion from someone clearly experienced in the field. Best wishes.

lima

dinnyirwin wrote: »

Imagine my laughter reading that from one of the most whingey, insulting, name calling, hope you all die, posters ive ever seen on the internet.
You should read back all your own posts.

Nothing wrong with wanting better for yourself. But it looks like a lot of people want to be able to be something that they are not and then cry because they arent.

Put in the work to get the money required to live in your desired area and you will be slapped on the back and told well done. Cry about being priced out of an area you cant afford and you can fuk off and get a life.

And if you aspire to be something, it does not make it so. If you are middle class you are middle class. You are not middle class if you are working class and aspire to be middle class. Nothing wrong with aspirations, but thats all they are until you get there.

So are you middle class or working class yourself? If you are middle class what is that makes you personally middle class?

I am not going to answer your questions and I am going to block you. Goodbye.

ezra_pound

Perhaps Lima is using 'middle class' in the American sense of the term.

The_Conductor

ezra_pound wrote: »

Perhaps Lima is using 'middle class' in the American sense of the term.

College educated, and reasonably financially secure?
Even in the States- middle class means whatever the person who is talking wants it to mean. Good luck finding two people walking down the street who come up with an identical definition- it isn't going to happen. Its also a moveable feast- once you hit your definition- inevitably the goalposts move.

kuntboy

infosys wrote: »

But as quoting wiki is like backing up an argument with crayons and finger painted charts

Absolute rubbish.

Maybe a few years ago it was a but dubious, but it has since grown organically to be 99% correct. Most articles have references at the end, you know?

ted1

kuntboy wrote: »

Absolute rubbish.

Maybe a few years ago it was a but dubious, but it has since grown organically to be 99% correct. Most articles have references at the end, you know?

He is right.
No one especially in academia wil accept Wikipedia as a credible reference

Pro Hoc Vice

kuntboy wrote: »

Absolute rubbish.

Maybe a few years ago it was a but dubious, but it has since grown organically to be 99% correct. Most articles have references at the end, you know?

You must tell Harvard they are wrong then, http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page346376

No one is saying it does not have a use, but one extra step will give verifiable facts. If I see a wiki quote I can be pretty sure the person knows very little about the issue and even more has stopped at the first page found in a google search.

beauf

infosys wrote: »

Y... If I see a wiki quote I can be pretty sure the person knows very little about the issue and even more has stopped at the first page found in a google search...

I don't agree with that. Wiki's are generally a consensus opinion (unless someones manipulated it) and are usually a good concise summation of an issue. Of course you should give your own opinion and perhaps more links than just one in isolation.

ezra_pound

The_Conductor wrote: »

College educated, and reasonably financially secure?
Even in the States- middle class means whatever the person who is talking wants it to mean. Good luck finding two people walking down the street who come up with an identical definition- it isn't going to happen. Its also a moveable feast- once you hit your definition- inevitably the goalposts move.

My entire point is that in the US it means pretty much whatever you want it to mean. In the us it means that you identify yourself as not being at the very top or the very bottom.

Classically middle class has a more specific meaning, referring to the non aristocratic industrialist and property owning class. They are the capitalists. By this definition someone who can't afford a family home is not middle class.

ted1

beauf wrote: »

I don't agree with that. Wiki's are generally a consensus opinion (unless someones manipulated it) and are usually a good concise summation of an issue. Of course you should give your own opinion and perhaps more links than just one in isolation.

Just look at the president