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Pushed out of the market

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    #62
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    All this talk of class division is a bit dead end. I don't think the class'es as most people think of them really fit the current economic environment.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ted1 wrote: »
    Just look at the president

    I'm not a mind reader ted?

    Is your point that its obviously and blatantly manipulated?


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    #64
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    beauf wrote: »
    I don't agree with that. Wiki's are generally a consensus opinion (unless someones manipulated it) and are usually a good concise summation of an issue. Of course you should give your own opinion and perhaps more links than just one in isolation.

    But is that not the point consensus is great for politics or family disputes, but in the imparting of information I don't want consensus I want verifiable facts. If it is opinion pieces I will reference a article or newspaper because by quoting a newspaper I am allowing the reader to take it or leave it based on the quality and stance of the paper. By quoting wiki the reader has no idea about how verifiable the facts are, or if the opinion is tainted or not.


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    #65
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,535 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not a mind reader ted?

    Is your point that its obviously and blatantly manipulated?

    Did you see his name under the picture ? It demonstrates how unrealible it is


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    #66
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ted1 wrote: »
    Did you see his name under the picture ? It demonstrates how unrealible it is

    You have to use some logic reasoning when looking at any information especially the web. Even scientific and academic studies are often bias to suit their own argument. Stats are notorious for it.


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    #67
    No Pants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,347 ✭✭✭No Pants


    lima wrote: »
    It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

    You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people. Same with Australia, with the 'Fair play, Good on you mate' a core part of their culture.

    Good on anyone who aspires to be middle class.
    There's more to being middle class than owning a house in a certain neighbourhood.


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    #68
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    beauf wrote: »
    You have to use some logic reasoning when looking at any information especially the web. Even scientific and academic studies are often bias to suit their own argument. Stats are notorious for it.

    Yes and I know the bias based on who is credited with writing it, with wiki I have no idea.


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    #69
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    infosys wrote: »
    Yes and I know the bias based on who is credited with writing it, with wiki I have no idea.

    Whoever it most positive too. That's always the smoking gun.


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    #70
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    Live in The Now!


    Do what is right for your circumstances now.


    No one can predict what is going to happen in 5, 10, 20 or 30 years.


    Why not rent in your chosen area for a while and see how things work out?


    Circumstances change !


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    #71
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    The madness has returned.

    House for sale down the road from me, for 100K (about 40%) more than the last two sold for about 18 months ago (ok, it's in much better condition, but still) - and there was a queue down the street for the first open viewing yesterday.

    Lack of (cheap) credit is all that's holding us back from doing the same and worse as happened 10 years ago.


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    #72
    cuilteanna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 139 ✭✭cuilteanna


    lima wrote: »
    It seems that it's only in Ireland that people try to bring people down and are never supportive of people wanting better for themselves.

    You should see here in the US (where I'm working for a little bit) how positive people are to all people.

    America is a big place, so it could very possibly be true of where you are. In 7 years of living there it wasn't my experience at all. Certainly people were positive and supportive to your face, but the behind-your-back bitchiness easily rivaled good old Irish begrudgery!


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    #73
    moxin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    The madness has returned.

    House for sale down the road from me, for 100K (about 40%) more than the last two sold for about 18 months ago (ok, it's in much better condition, but still) - and there was a queue down the street for the first open viewing yesterday.

    Lack of (cheap) credit is all that's holding us back from doing the same and worse as happened 10 years ago.

    Where? What region? All we have heard of this happening is in the famous SCD.


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    #74
    uli84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭uli84


    Hah, it's crazy again indeed. Apt in ashtown, advertised at 170k, went to open viewing, loads of people, at 'registering' agent saying there is already 205k offer on it, like 20% above asking, left without looking, ridiculous.


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    #75
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    moxin wrote: »
    Where? What region? All we have heard of this happening is in the famous SCD.

    Dublin 8.


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    #76
    Glenbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Glenbhoy


    uli84 wrote: »
    Hah, it's crazy again indeed. Apt in ashtown, advertised at 170k, went to open viewing, loads of people, at 'registering' agent saying there is already 205k offer on it, like 20% above asking, left without looking, ridiculous.

    Which block of apartments, methinks there won't be any lack of supply up there over the coming years, I personally know a number of people who're very keen to get shot if they could get anywhere near covering the outstanding mortgage.

    Rathborne end isn't too bad, Royal Canal Park owners could be waiting a while!


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    #77
    uli84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭uli84


    That was in Meridian, think it's royal canal park


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    #78
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    HeidiHeidi wrote: »
    The madness has returned.

    House for sale down the road from me, for 100K (about 40%) more than the last two sold for about 18 months ago (ok, it's in much better condition, but still) - and there was a queue down the street for the first open viewing yesterday.

    Lack of (cheap) credit is all that's holding us back from doing the same and worse as happened 10 years ago.



    Wow! It did not take long for the madness to return. Supply and Demand I guess?

    The price is what someone is willing to pay!


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    #79
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    uli84 wrote: »
    Hah, it's crazy again indeed. Apt in ashtown, advertised at 170k, went to open viewing, loads of people, at 'registering' agent saying there is already 205k offer on it, like 20% above asking, left without looking, ridiculous.

    I think that is a really silly thing to do. If you are in the market you want to be as informed as possible so you want to know what is selling. Looking in a property is so different to being physically there.

    The other things is nobody can "should" the market to what they think it has to be.

    The way PTSB has changed its mortgage policies to move trackers will get more movement in the market. If the other banks follow there will be a freeing of lots of people to change properties. Some will go up and others down. The stalling of natural movement due to trackers and negative equity has been benefiting those buying to an extent but also preventing FTBs housing from coming to the market.


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    #80
    Aemtler
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Aemtler


    My take on the PTSB change to mortgage policies is it will actually put more price pressure on family homes. My guess is that is a lot of people in negative equity who want to move are stuck in apartments and wanting to move to houses as they are starting families etc. If they can take their negative equity with them, there will be more people looking for the 3-4 bed semi.

    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I think that is a really silly thing to do. If you are in the market you want to be as informed as possible so you want to know what is selling. Looking in a property is so different to being physically there.

    The other things is nobody can "should" the market to what they think it has to be.

    The way PTSB has changed its mortgage policies to move trackers will get more movement in the market. If the other banks follow there will be a freeing of lots of people to change properties. Some will go up and others down. The stalling of natural movement due to trackers and negative equity has been benefiting those buying to an extent but also preventing FTBs housing from coming to the market.


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    #81
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Aemtler wrote: »
    My take on the PTSB change to mortgage policies is it will actually put more price pressure on family homes. My guess is that is a lot of people in negative equity who want to move are stuck in apartments and wanting to move to houses as they are starting families etc. If they can take their negative equity with them, there will be more people looking for the 3-4 bed semi.

    I'd be inclined to concur with this assessment.


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    #82
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Aemtler wrote: »
    My take on the PTSB change to mortgage policies is it will actually put more price pressure on family homes. My guess is that is a lot of people in negative equity who want to move are stuck in apartments and wanting to move to houses as they are starting families etc. If they can take their negative equity with them, there will be more people looking for the 3-4 bed semi.
    I also would concur with this. The other effect would be that there might be more apartments and small houses on the market, depressing the price of such units somewhat.

    It will be interesting to see how much take-up there will be on this scheme. It's quite tricky to judge how things might balance out. If the demand for 3-4 bedroom units is increased and the supply of 1-2 bedroom units is also increased, the price gap between bigger and smaller homes will increase, making the scheme less attractive. My guess is that the people who get in early might do okay, and when the market adjusts, the deal might become less attractive.


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    #83
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Aemtler wrote: »
    My take on the PTSB change to mortgage policies is it will actually put more price pressure on family homes. My guess is that is a lot of people in negative equity who want to move are stuck in apartments and wanting to move to houses as they are starting families etc. If they can take their negative equity with them, there will be more people looking for the 3-4 bed semi.
    Well it depends on what you think people are going to do and what situations people are in.

    Are there tons of people trapped in apartments with trackers itching to buy?

    Are there tons of people in arrears with trackers wanting to downsize or get cheaper places?

    Considering we know there are lots of people in arrears it seems to make sense a portion of people wanting to move trackers will be these people.

    Either way it means a lot of property that was considered the first step on the ladder or ideal FTB homes haven't been going back on the market as people were stuck. This was in part due to trackers and negative equity. If you remove this problem you let the market be more fluid and more stock available is better for everyone.


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    #84
    moxin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    It might bring a flood of apartments to the rental market if all those conditions are fulfilled Ray.


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    #85
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    moxin wrote: »
    It might bring a flood of apartments to the rental market if all those conditions are fulfilled Ray.

    There's only a certain number of 3/4 bedroom houses available in Dublin, and as has been mentioned, bringing your tracker with you will push these prices up even further.

    In my opinion what may be likely to happen is people who have apartments in undesirable areas, say out in bluebell or the wrong side of the m50, will look to move to apartments that are closer to amenities or family.

    However those people who can bring their tracker are still at an extreme disadvantage to cash buyers/first time buyers. Won't they still need to get a chunky deposit together? and if they do get it together why weren't they using it to pay down some of their debt?


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    #86
    Aemtler
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Aemtler


    I agree that a more fluid market has to be better for everyone in the long run.

    I believe more first home buyers will come back to the realisation that 3-4 bed homes in prime areas will become out of reach and will resigned to looking at apartments (or houses further out) which was not how it was in the last couple of years.
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Well it depends on what you think people are going to do and what situations people are in.

    Are there tons of people trapped in apartments with trackers itching to buy?

    Are there tons of people in arrears with trackers wanting to downsize or get cheaper places?

    Considering we know there are lots of people in arrears it seems to make sense a portion of people wanting to move trackers will be these people.

    Either way it means a lot of property that was considered the first step on the ladder or ideal FTB homes haven't been going back on the market as people were stuck. This was in part due to trackers and negative equity. If you remove this problem you let the market be more fluid and more stock available is better for everyone.


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    #87
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    moxin wrote: »
    It might bring a flood of apartments to the rental market if all those conditions are fulfilled Ray.
    Or increase the availability of apartments for FTBs to buy.

    The market has been stopped from moving by people hanging onto their trackers and/or negative equity. Lot of people can still afford their houses and afford more. In a normal market they would move.

    Given the market many people just hunkered down and that included people wanting to downsize due to age. They were effect by trackers/negative equity but weren't moving on either as the price of their houses wasn't incentive enough.

    Supply and demand has supply first. People have to see a price they are willing to sell at. That's what tracker moving allows for by removing the punishment to move. If you simply moved to house for the exact same price and lost your tracker I think they said that costs €200 per €100k. For an average house of €300k €600 extra a month in a lot. Nobody would do that willingly.


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    #88
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    The Spider wrote: »
    However those people who can bring their tracker are still at an extreme disadvantage to cash buyers/first time buyers. Won't they still need to get a chunky deposit together? and if they do get it together why weren't they using it to pay down some of their debt?

    Why exactly would somebody pay down their tracker debt with savings when a better return could be made putting the savings in medium to long term savings accounts / bonds ?


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    #89
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    D3PO wrote: »
    Why exactly would somebody pay down their tracker debt with savings when a better return could be made putting the savings in medium to long term savings accounts / bonds ?

    If they sell their property in negative equity, but bring the negative equity and the tracker with them, would the bank not want to see as much of that negative equity eroded as possible before another mortgage?

    Or am I misreading it completely?


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    #90
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    The Spider wrote: »
    If they sell their property in negative equity, but bring the negative equity and the tracker with them, would the bank not want to see as much of that negative equity eroded as possible before another mortgage?

    Or am I misreading it completely?


    Yeah you missed something. The bank is allowing you to carry your negative equity to you new house. Say you bought a 2 bed house for €400k and now it is worth €300k so €90k neg equity ( you will have paid off some principle)

    You now see a 4 bed house and it is €450k sell your old house and get a top up from your bank for the further €150k. You now have a mortgage of €450k but no negative equity and depending on what way you agreed it you may have €400k on a tracker and 150k on regular rates. However I suspect the bank will have it as €300k on tracker and €250k regular. Either way you would be much better off than if you did it and lost your tracker by about €600 a month. Although it is cheaper to build an extension if you can


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    #91
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Yeah you missed something. The bank is allowing you to carry your negative equity to you new house. Say you bought a 2 bed house for €400k and now it is worth €300k so €90k neg equity ( you will have paid off some principle)

    You now see a 4 bed house and it is €450k sell your old house and get a top up from your bank for the further €150k. You now have a mortgage of €450k but no negative equity and depending on what way you agreed it you may have €400k on a tracker and 150k on regular rates. However I suspect the bank will have it as €300k on tracker and €250k regular. Either way you would be much better off than if you did it and lost your tracker by about €600 a month. Although it is cheaper to build an extension if you can

    Ah I see, cleared up, thanks!


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