Electric Fence for Dog

krisroger

Hi there. I have just got a new puppy, labrador/retriever cross. She is 8 weeks old. We have a pretty big area outside for her to run around while we are at work. I am thinking of buying one of those electric fences for dogs. Just wondering if anyone has any experience of using these and if they found them any good? And also any advise on which one would be most suitable for a labrador/retriever? From what age can you start using them?

ShaShaBear

krisroger wrote: »

Hi there. I have just got a new puppy, labrador/retriever cross. She is 8 weeks old. We have a pretty big area outside for her to run around while we are at work. I am thinking of buying one of those electric fences for dogs. Just wondering if anyone has any experience of using these and if they found them any good? And also any advise on which one would be most suitable for a labrador/retriever? From what age can you start using them?

The general consensus here (sorry, we don't like them) is that they are unreliable.
There is no guarantee that they will ever hold your dog in. Some people have used them with great success, some have horrid memories of their dogs half squished in the middle of a road, some regularly have to lift their dogs back out of the pound after they got out, others have dogs that are so traumatized by the electrocution that they refuse to go outside and develop behavioral problems including aggression.

A quick scan through Ireland's pounds to see the amount of "stray" dogs with their fence collars STILL on should say all it needs to.
Your pup will need adequate walks twice daily irrespective of the amount of outdoor space they have to roam in. So I would advise you spend the equivalent of an electric fence on some real fencing materials and construct a real fence that doesn't electrocute your dog.

Also be aware that electric fences don't stop thieves from entering your garden and stealing your dog :rolleyes:

andreac

No, please, just no. Dont do it to your poor dog. Electric shocks, really?? Why would you want to inflict pain on your pet?

They are cruel and unreliable, end of.

DoctorEdgeWild

Please don't. A quick search of the forum will bring up loads of threads for you to read but the general consensus is - Secure your garden/land physically with fencing etc. rather than using pain to keep your dog under control.

There is also the issue that if a dog wants something bad enough, they will push through the pain to get it. A secure area solves this problem.

Enjoy your new puppy.

tk123

I wouldn't leave a pup of that age out in a garden full stop - too much can go wrong when they're entertaining themselves.

Alpha Dog 1

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

Please don't. A quick search of the forum will bring up loads of threads for you to read but the general consensus is - Secure your garden/land physically with fencing etc. rather than using pain to keep your dog under control..

Ah yes but try and keep 3 hunting dogs in a large back garden. They can scale fences which are lower than 7 Feet. Near impossible.

The fence works well, once you train them properly aand set the fence up correctly it works like a dream. It allows us to have our dogs out all day rather than chained up.

They will get a few shocks in the training stage which should take a few hours. Once they are trained correctly they will never get a shock again.

ShaShaBear

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Ah yes but try and keep 3 hunting dogs in a large back garden. They can scale fences which are lower than 7 Feet. Near impossible.

The fence works well, once you train them properly aand set the fence up correctly it works like a dream. It allows us to have our dogs out all day rather than chained up.

They will get a few shocks in the training stage which should take a few hours. Once they are trained correctly they will never get a shock again.

There are plenty of people here who have trained their dogs correctly and the fence has failed them. In fact I believe there are one or two people here who have actually got qualifications to train dogs correctly and the fence STILL failed them. Because at the end of the day it comes down to the personality of the dog. And it still doesn't stop someone entering your garden and stealing the dogs.

borderlinemeath

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Ah yes but try and keep 3 hunting dogs in a large back garden. They can scale fences which are lower than 7 Feet. Near impossible.

The fence works well, once you train them properly aand set the fence up correctly it works like a dream. It allows us to have our dogs out all day rather than chained up.

They will get a few shocks in the training stage which should take a few hours. Once they are trained correctly they will never get a shock again.

I have 2 setters from hunting stock, I also mind dogs including huskies and collies, (proper escape artists) I have an acre sized garden and guess what? I have a REAL fence, a proper barrier, one that doesn't rely on keeping my dogs in through fear and pain.

Every time one of these threads comes up there's always somebody who says "I have a big garden/land" or "It works for me" or "It works if trained correctly" It may have worked for you so far, but you cannot guarantee that it will work all the time. There is just far too much risk involved with using one of these devices and relying on it 100%.

The power may fail
The batteries can run out
The dog(s) can become clever and realise that if it keeps beeping then the battery will eventually run out and it can sail over the boundary
If the dog(s) see something worth taking the pain for - ie a cat/bird/rodent/another dog they can just take the shock and cross the boundary. What is their incentive to come back? Nothing. Get another shock? Not a chance, out roaming and at risk of being run over, shot by a farmer, stolen, picked up by the dog warden.. there's many risks.
On the ethical and cruelty issue, there is no need to inflict pain on your pet to ensure they stay within a boundary. It is a lazy way to train.

Edit, just noticed your user name. I really hope it doesn't reflect on your dog training methods!

DoctorEdgeWild

Alpha Dog 1 wrote: »

Ah yes but try and keep 3 hunting dogs in a large back garden. They can scale fences which are lower than 7 Feet. Near impossible.

The fence works well, once you train them properly aand set the fence up correctly it works like a dream. It allows us to have our dogs out all day rather than chained up.

They will get a few shocks in the training stage which should take a few hours. Once they are trained correctly they will never get a shock again.

I understand the difficulty involved but if they can get over a 7ft fence then you need an 8ft fence. (or, more reasonably a staggered fence setup)

Working dogs are a different situation but an 8 week old pup left in a garden with a shock collar? I don't believe it is anywhere near the best way to keep your dog safe and happy and well.

The Glass Key

Intersting read http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Animal-loving-MPs-ban-electric-shock-dog-collars/story-20479737-detail/story.html calls for a ban in the UK and already banned in Wales?

DBB

DoctorEdgeWild wrote: »

Working dogs are a different situation but an 8 week old pup left in a garden with a shock collar? I don't believe it is anywhere near the best way to keep your dog safe and happy and well.

As a matter of interest, why are working dogs different?

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why are working dogs different?

I think someone was trying to suggest that hunting/working dogs are significantly more agile than their house-pet counterparts

StompToWork

I must add my opinion here, and it differs from the general consensus of the other comments. I use such a system, and I find it VERY reliable and effective.

We use the PetSafe system. Buried wire, and collar.

I wonder if most people here realise that the collar can be set to varying settings. While training your dog to where the boundary is, it is suggested that you set it to administer a correcting static shock. However, once your dog is trained to where the boundary is, the collar is then set to either beep, or vibrate, or both, WITHOUT administering the static shock. It took me 3 weeks to train my LabX to where I was confident he wouldn't cross the boundary. Now, if he gets overly curious and tries to see how far he can push it (which is rare now a days!), all he gets is a beep, which is enough to stop him.

It is important that during training, you are there supervising ALL the time. When he gets a correction, you call him to you, and you reward him for turning at the boundary. Also make sure that where you leave your property to take your dog for a walk, that he knows he can only cross it while on leash. Maybe our fella was just easily trained, but I found the whole process largely hassle-free.

As it happens, our boundary wire was damaged, and in my laziness (and due to horrible weather), it took me about 4 weeks to get around to fixing it. In that time, Deefor was still allowed out as normal, and he would still not cross the boundary. Towards the end, he did get brave, and crossed into the neighbouring field briefly one day, which is when I fixed it. As soon as he got the next beep after fixing, things were back to normal. I haven't had the collar set to shock since we finished training almost 2 years ago now (when Deefor was 6 mths old, BTW).

Considering the apparent cruelness of the system, before I bought it, I asked the shop if I could get an idea of what it was like. They had a test loop setup in the shop, and I set the collar to the highest level, and tried it on myself. You definitely feel it, but I wouldn't have described it as painful. Now, I now my threshold for pain is probably higher than my tiny (by comparison to my size) dog, but I felt it was acceptable. Much better than, say, that fool Milan constantly digging into a dog's rib cage!!

I love my fur-baby, and I would like to think I have a fair idea of what works and doesn't work, and what is "cruel" and what isn't, and I honestly believe that this system works excellently. Our dog is happy, content and most importantly, safe.

I highly recommend it.

krisroger

Okay, thanks for the feedback. Interesting as I had only ever heard good reports and never anything bad before so definitely lots to think about here...

Alpha Dog 1

I wouldn't put a collar on a dog less than 10 months old.
I can only give my experience, I accept this might not work for everybody.

Having tried for yyears to stop dogs wondering off hunting sheep and walking the roads, being aggressive towards people and chasing cars I installed the fence over 3 years ago and never had any issues apart from a few line breaks.

Also when the batteries run out, my dogs ain't that smart to realize it and there not in the habit of testing it. I've often gone weeks without replacing batteries and again no issues.

ShaShaBear

StompToWork wrote: »

I must add my opinion here, and it differs from the general consensus of the other comments. I use such a system, and I find it VERY reliable and effective.

We use the PetSafe system. Buried wire, and collar.

I wonder if most people here realise that the collar can be set to varying settings. While training your dog to where the boundary is, it is suggested that you set it to administer a correcting static shock. However, once your dog is trained to where the boundary is, the collar is then set to either beep, or vibrate, or both, WITHOUT administering the static shock. It took me 3 weeks to train my LabX to where I was confident he wouldn't cross the boundary. Now, if he gets overly curious and tries to see how far he can push it (which is rare now a days!), all he gets is a beep, which is enough to stop him.

It is important that during training, you are there supervising ALL the time. When he gets a correction, you call him to you, and you reward him for turning at the boundary. Also make sure that where you leave your property to take your dog for a walk, that he knows he can only cross it while on leash. Maybe our fella was just easily trained, but I found the whole process largely hassle-free.

As it happens, our boundary wire was damaged, and in my laziness (and due to horrible weather), it took me about 4 weeks to get around to fixing it. In that time, Deefor was still allowed out as normal, and he would still not cross the boundary. Towards the end, he did get brave, and crossed into the neighbouring field briefly one day, which is when I fixed it. As soon as he got the next beep after fixing, things were back to normal. I haven't had the collar set to shock since we finished training almost 2 years ago now (when Deefor was 6 mths old, BTW).

Considering the apparent cruelness of the system, before I bought it, I asked the shop if I could get an idea of what it was like. They had a test loop setup in the shop, and I set the collar to the highest level, and tried it on myself. You definitely feel it, but I wouldn't have described it as painful. Now, I now my threshold for pain is probably higher than my tiny (by comparison to my size) dog, but I felt it was acceptable. Much better than, say, that fool Milan constantly digging into a dog's rib cage!!

I love my fur-baby, and I would like to think I have a fair idea of what works and doesn't work, and what is "cruel" and what isn't, and I honestly believe that this system works excellently. Our dog is happy, content and most importantly, safe.

I highly recommend it.

And if he had been shot and killed by a farmer in that "brief" period?
You see the problem here. By your own admission it is not full-proof, you cannot rely on your dog to obey the boundaries at all times and we have all read threads on the death or disappearance of dogs because of "brief" down-time in the fencing. As we have all said, it works for some, but it is not full-proof and fully reliable considering the consequences of a failure.

runawaybishop

They work fine if you train the dog correctly to begin with. You can't just lash the collar on and leave them outside. You have to spend a while teaching them the boundary to begin with as the collar just reinforces this. Cheaper collars/fences should be avoided.

krisroger

She's not outside on her own at the moment. I am planning very much in advance as want to be prepared for when she is bigger..

runawaybishop

borderlinemeath wrote: »

one that doesn't rely on keeping my dogs in through fear and pain. !

:rolleyes: That's not how the system operates.

ShaShaBear

krisroger wrote: »

She's not outside on her own at the moment. I am planning very much in advance as want to be prepared for when she is bigger..

For her own safety it would be better to train her to being able to be left inside alone. Or at the very least build a run for her outside. I've seen some very shnazzy ones with wood and wire, with a roof over the top so they cannot escape. As I already said, she will need adequate walks regardless of how much space she has access to and a moderate-small fenced off area with a proper insulated kennel, food and water and plenty of stimulating toys, and she doesn't need more than that when left alone outside for short-medium periods of time.

ShaShaBear

runawaybishop wrote: »

:rolleyes: That's not how the system operates.

But it is how the dog operates.

Alpha Dog 1

Note="StompToWork;89311540"]I must add my opinion here, and it differs from the general consensus of the other comments. I use such a system, and I find it VERY reliable and effective.

We use the PetSafe system. Buried wire, and collar.

I wonder if most people here realise that the collar can be set to varying settings. While training your dog to where the boundary is, it is suggested that you set it to administer a correcting static shock. However, once your dog is trained to where the boundary is, the collar is then set to either beep, or vibrate, or both, WITHOUT administering the static shock. It took me 3 weeks to train my LabX to where I was confident he wouldn't cross the boundary. Now, if he gets overly curious and tries to see how far he can push it (which is rare now a days!), all he gets is a beep, which is enough to stop him.

It is important that during training, you are there supervising ALL the time. When he gets a correction, you call him to you, and you reward him for turning at the boundary. Also make sure that where you leave your property to take your dog for a walk, that he knows he can only cross it while on leash. Maybe our fella was just easily trained, but I found the whole process largely hassle-free.

As it happens, our boundary wire was damaged, and in my laziness (and due to horrible weather), it took me about 4 weeks to get around to fixing it. In that time, Deefor was still allowed out as normal, and he would still not cross the boundary. Towards the end, he did get brave, and crossed into the neighbouring field briefly one day, which is when I fixed it. As soon as he got the next beep after fixing, things were back to normal. I haven't had the collar set to shock since we finished training almost 2 years ago now (when Deefor was 6 mths old, BTW).

Considering the apparent cruelness of the system, before I bought it, I asked the shop if I could get an idea of what it was like. They had a test loop setup in the shop, and I set the collar to the highest level, and tried it on myself. You definitely feel it, but I wouldn't have described it as painful. Now, I now my threshold for pain is probably higher than my tiny (by comparison to my size) dog, but I felt it was acceptable. Much better than, say, that fool Milan constantly digging into a dog's rib cage!!

I love my fur-baby, and I would like to think I have a fair idea of what works and doesn't work, and what is "cruel" and what isn't, and I honestly believe that this system works excellently. Our dog is happy, content and most importantly, safe.

I highly recommend it.[/quote]

100% agree.
With a good system, good setup and excellent training there is no reason why this should not work.

It's simply not a case of installing it and hoping it works. You need to know how it works and the correct approach to training.

andreac

krisroger wrote: »

She's not outside on her own at the moment. I am planning very much in advance as want to be prepared for when she is bigger..

Well then plenty of time to sort proper, safe, dog friendly (not cruel) fencing, or a proper dog run which is way more secure and safe for your dog.

runawaybishop

ShaShaBear wrote: »

But it is how the dog operates.

The dog operates on fear and pain?

DBB

A couple of articles from the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, I think the most respected and powerful animal behaviour organisations in the world:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/ethics_of_pet_containment_fences

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars

Unfortunately I'm unable to find any backed-up arguments from qualified people in favour of shock collars.

runawaybishop

DBB wrote: »

A couple of articles from the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, I think the most respected and powerful animal behaviour organisations in the world:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/ethics_of_pet_containment_fences

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars

A couple of biased articles mean **** all. Use proper peer reviewed material.

ShaShaBear

runawaybishop wrote: »

The dog operates on fear and pain?

In the case of the fence, yes. They hardly stay within the boundaries (when it works) because the fence spits out cookies and steak :rolleyes:
The idea is that they do not want to leave the area because they firstly receive pain, and then are later reminded to be afraid of that pain by the beeps.
If they were not afraid of the beeps and there was no pain, do you think they would stay in the boundary?

StompToWork

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I have a REAL fence, a proper barrier, one that doesn't rely on keeping my dogs in through fear and pain.

It isn't always possible or practical to install real fencing. We rent, and as open-minded as our landlord is, I don't think she would stretch to fencing in the entire property. I also read a suggestion earlier in the post from someone that the money spent on an electric system would be better spent on real fencing. I challenge anyone to entirely fence in an acre of land for €190!

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There is just far too much risk involved with using one of these devices and relying on it 100%.

The power may fail
Granted, but if the dog is trained correctly, he won't know the power is out, and will not cross the boundary. You train your dog not to approach the boundary, NOT to get a correction and come running back. Even if the power went in the morning after you left for work, and was still out when you return 8 or 9 hours later, a correctly trained dog will still be there when you get home

The batteries can run out
Granted, which is why you need to check the collar every so often. Kinda like a smoke alarm. There are lights on the collar which also blink when the battery requires changing

The dog(s) can become clever and realise that if it keeps beeping then the battery will eventually run out and it can sail over the boundary
Them is some clever dogs you have!! I'm sorry, but that seems a little far-fetched to me

If the dog(s) see something worth taking the pain for - ie a cat/bird/rodent/another dog they can just take the shock and cross the boundary. What is their incentive to come back? Nothing. Get another shock? Not a chance.......
You train your dog initially to come back to you upon correction, and you are also training the dog from the perspective of in your property looking out. Outside looking in will be unfamiliar to him, so he will cross back in, and when he gets the correction, he is already travelling in the right direction according to his training. As I said already in my post, you don't need to have it set to administer a shock. It doesn't need to be painful

On the ethical and cruelty issue, there is no need to inflict pain on your pet to ensure they stay within a boundary. It is a lazy way to train.
Again, in the long term, no static shock is needed. The correction is a vibration or a beep or both, WITHOUT the static shock. Static shock is used during supervised training, which can take between 3-6 weeks.

andreac

Why are they banned in Wales and also calling for a ban on them in the rest of the UK?

borderlinemeath

runawaybishop wrote: »

:rolleyes: That's not how the system operates.

Roll your eyes all you want. It's an aversive method of training that relys on the dog being afraid of getting a shock - ie pain. I don't know about you but I don't like getting an electric shock, it is painful, disorientating and scary - and as a human,I have rational thinking to know why I just got shocked - a dog doesn't. The dog only keeps away from the boundary because he has been 'trained' that if he goes to close he will get a shock - ie he is afraid of pain. He associates the boundary with experiencing an aversive, painful shock. Do I need to spell it out for you any more??:rolleyes:

andreac

StompToWork wrote: »

It isn't always possible or practical to install real fencing. We rent, and as open-minded as our landlord is, I don't think she would stretch to fencing in the entire property. I also read a suggestion earlier in the post from someone that the money spent on an electric system would be better spent on real fencing. I challenge anyone to entirely fence in an acre of land for €190!

Well then build a dog run, they can be done for around 200-400 depending on the size you want.