Electric Fence for Dog

sillysmiles

fiounnalbe wrote: »

This is exactly what I did with all my dogs.

How has it worked for you?
I assume, as mentioned by others, that you still have to have the dog/s locked in somewhere when you aren't there?

StompToWork

DBB wrote: »

Did you not say that at the very start, the dog got a shock? A static shock?
Can we accept that this static shock is an unpleasant event for the dog?
I assume we're all going to accept this as the system can't work unless the initial shocks are unpleasant. It cannot work if the dog does not pair the buzzing sound with the consequent unpleasant shock. The dog subsequently avoids the perimeter due to trying to avoid the shock from happening. Are we all agreed on that?
So can we not all accept that for this system to work, the dog must experience at least some level of discomfort (at best)?
And for the system to continue working, the dog must continue to maintain an apprehension of approaching the boundary, because he has learned that there's an unpleasant consequence of he does so? In other words, even if the dog doesn't get a shock on subsequent occasions, he is still actively avoiding a negative experience? And every time he feels the vibration, or hears the buzz, regardless of whether he is shocked again, he experiences a physiological stress response which causes him to move away from the boundary?
It is this ongoing apprehension, by the by, that causes the chronic anxiety levels in dogs contained by radio fence systems. Chronic is difficult for many owners to spot at all, and indeed its insidious nature is well known to many a human too. So, it's not so much the shock that's the problem in many cases (although it is, in far too many cases in my experience), it's the anxious anticipation of the shock that causes long-term problems.

It's getting harder and harder not to start taking this personally. Essentially, what people who are against these fences are saying is that I am either torturing, or psychologically damaging my dog. I have done the research. My parents have used the same system on their dog for over 5 years now, and he is one of the most well adjusted dogs I know. I have read the good and the bad about it, and in my situation, it is the best option. If people ask me their opinion, I will give it based on my experience, which has been, and continues to be good.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the signs of chronic anxiety is, considering that you say most owners find it hard to spot it. What should I be looking out for?

runawaybishop

DBB wrote: »

Did you not say that at the very start, the dog got a shock? A static shock?
Can we accept that this static shock is an unpleasant event for the dog?
I assume we're all going to accept this as the system can't work unless the initial shocks are unpleasant. It cannot work if the dog does not pair the buzzing sound with the consequent unpleasant shock. The dog subsequently avoids the perimeter due to trying to avoid the shock from happening. Are we all agreed on that?

I disagree with that, it is not necessary for the animal to receive a shock. Reward behaviour can be used with a vibration or noise to merely alert the dog. This is not an unpleasant experience.

DBB wrote: »

It is this ongoing apprehension, by the by, that causes the chronic anxiety levels in dogs contained by radio fence systems. Chronic stress is difficult for many owners to spot at all, and indeed its insidious nature is well known to many a human too. So, it's not so much the shock that's the problem in many cases (although it is, in far too many cases in my experience), it's the anxious anticipation of the shock that causes long-term problems.

Dogs do not experience chronic stress with predicable actions, as i have already referenced earlier in the thread. The dog shouldn't be stressed by a reward based system anyway.

DBB

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Thank you. I'm happy that you tried it out on yourself, I fear many people don't bother and may set the shock too high, really hurting their dog.

Wellll, the problem is that when humans say they've tried it (as I have), it has always been on hands or arms. I am pretty sure that if any human was to place the collar onto their throat, even at a low setting, they would not describe it as "uncomfortable". In any case, it's all relative. It matters not one whit what we think of it... it's what the dog thinks of it that's more relevant.
But here's the thing with using aversives in training: in order for them to work effectively, the first time(s) they happen, they have to be bad.. they have to be relatively quite highly aversive.
If an aversive training method only causes mild discomfort in the initial stages, it tends not to stop the unwanted behaviour, because it's just not aversive enough. In addition, because it's not nearly as effective due to not being aversive enough, the animal (dog, human, cow, whatever), becomes somewhat habituated to the sensation, which means the level of aversion has to be increased for the method to work at all. And now we're getting into serious territory, because at each step of not being quite aversive enough to stop the unwanted behaviour, the animal habituates, until eventually the level of aversion becomes extraordinarily high, with terrible welfare implications.
So, the unpleasant truth about using aversive training is, for it to work, the first few times you do it, it needs to be quite highly aversive to the animal, so that, to put it anthropomorphically, the fear of god is put into him enough so as to not repeat the behaviour again. In other words, for it to be effective, the first few shocks have to be pretty unpleasant for the dog.

DBB

runawaybishop wrote: »

Dogs do not experience chronic stress with predicable actions, as i have already referenced earlier in the thread.

Unless you have some sort of recognised 3rd level qualification in animal welfare, then I'm inclined to pay you little heed.
In any case, I was under the impression you had been asked not to post here again?

fiounnalbe

sillysmiles wrote: »

How has it worked for you?
I assume, as mentioned by others, that you still have to have the dog/s locked in somewhere when you aren't there?

Perfectly, none of them have ever tried to wander off. Yes of course they are locked in while I'm not in the house, this is completely in case they are stolen though and not for fear of them wandering. (My husband did once drive off in a rush from the house leaving the dogs outside and they all stayed on our property.)

DBB

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Perfectly, none of them have ever tried to wander off. Yes of course they are locked in while I'm not in the house, this is completely in case they are stolen though and not for fear of them wandering. (My husband did once drive off in a rush from the house leaving the dogs outside and they all stayed on our property.)

That's brilliant fiounnalbe! It's a lovely sign that your dogs have no wish to leave home, even if given the opportunity!:)

runawaybishop

DBB wrote: »

Unless you have some sort of recognised 3rd level qualification in animal welfare, then I'm inclined to pay you little heed.
In any case, I was under the impression you had been asked not to post here again?

No, i was not asked that but i have sought clarification from the moderator in question.

By referenced i meant in the scientific definition, i.e i referenced a paper investigating the effects, namely Schalke et al. (2007)

Here is another reference from Steiss et al. (2007)

In the present study, with dogs wearing bark control collars intermittently over a 2-week period, the collars effectively deterred barking without statistically significant elevations in plasma cortisol, compared to controls, at any of the time points measured.

sillysmiles

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Perfectly, none of them have ever tried to wander off. Yes of course they are locked in while I'm not in the house, this is completely in case they are stolen though and not for fear of them wandering. (My husband did once drive off in a rush from the house leaving the dogs outside and they all stayed on our property.)

Thanks for the answer.
I genuinely think that this is something the OP could try as a first approach, especially as your pup ha been so successful in her other training.
Definitely hold off on buying extra gear for the moment.

StompToWork

DBB wrote: »

In other words, for it to be effective, the first few shocks have to be pretty unpleasant for the dog.

You know what, I'll grant you that. This is very true.

However, once training has been complete, and shocks are no longer used, is it your contention that the dog is now scarred for life? There is no way the dog can be happy, well adjusted and more importantly, safe.

As for the signs and symptoms of chronic anxiety you mentioned earlier, and in order to be as sure as possible that my dog isn't in any harm, can you please let me know what those signs might be?

DBB

StompToWork wrote: »

However, once training has been complete, and shocks are no longer used, is it your contention that the dog is now scarred for life? There is no way the dog can be happy, well adjusted and more importantly, safe.

I'm not saying all dogs are scarred for life, no. A number of dogs are undoubtedly scarred for life from them, as is evidenced by case notes from applied animal behaviourists, including some dogs who are emotionally more sensitive than others, whether that be genetically, or as a result of environmental influences. But at best, the dog would only feel stressed when put into a position where he anticipates getting a shock (which is most likely to happen outside in the garden, at best in certain parts of the garden (near the boundary). So, many dogs would not be feeling stressy when away from the cues which warn him a shock may happen (such cues include being outside, and/or being near the boundary, and/or the buzz/vibration, and/or who knows what else... one of the big drawbacks of the shock collar... we don't know what else he's learning when he gets those initial shocks). The problem with anxiety is that only some of the cues which predict the shock need to be present, so for some dogs, simply going out into the garden can make him feel edgy... I know one Great Dane who has to be carried to the car to be brought for walks, because he will not set foot outside the house due to the fright he got from ONE shock from the radio fence)
Just to reiterate, qualified behaviourists will always strive to reduce potential; sources of anxiety in order to maximise welfare: so whilst dogs may appear okay, and indeed may be perfectly fine, it's a game a Russian Roulette, which some dogs lose even though their owner trains them properly to the radio fence system (I've met quite a few of these). So, the best advice in terms of maximising welfare and health is not to use shock collars.

As for the signs and symptoms of chronic anxiety you mentioned earlier, and in order to be as sure as possible that my dog isn't in any harm, can you please let me know what those signs might be?

Phew! I hope I can take this on here without going all jargon-y:o
There are quite a number of anxiety-related behaviours in dogs that are exacerbated by other sources of anxiety: for example, a dog with, say, separation anxiety is more likely to be more deeply affected, and harder to treat, due to other non-separation related sources of stress in their lives. Such alternative sources of stress include anything that brings fear to the dog's life. Using shock collars is one such cause of fear, for reasons I hope I've already explained. Fear of other dogs (often manifested by aggression) might be another source of stress. To quantify the effects of such stressors is almost impossible, just as it is in humans, but all of them would be routinely identified, addressed, and reduced as part of a general anxiety-reducing behaviour modification program. So, if I was treating a dog for separation anxiety, I would have to address it, his dog-related fear, and his shock-collar related anxiety. Does that make sense?
In addition, dogs who have chronic anxiety are more likely to develop other behavioural problems due to the anxiety bringing them closer to a threshold that would never otherwise be reached. So, for example, a chronically stressed, normally gentle dog might just snap at a child who grabs food off him, something that would not have happened were the dog not undergoing a generalised emotional arousal due to anxiety.
Ageing dogs are particularly prone to the effects of chronic stress, which contributes in no small part to canine cognitive dysfunction, 50% of older dogs suffer from anxiety-related behavioural problems.
Some symptoms of acute and/or chronic stress include depression, anorexia (not eating heartily), restlessness, hypervigilance, reactivity particularly to sudden noises or movements, self-appeasement behaviours such as destructive behaviours (e.g. digging, chewing, shredding), over-grooming and self-mutilation, hypersalivation, excessive barking, inappropriate and excessive toileting often with soft stools... this is all stuff off the top of my head now, I'll look up veterinary behaviour books later if I get a chance.
Health-wise, as with humans, the effects tend to be rather insidious in nature, and tend to go undiscovered in many cases. I don't know if I can even begin to list the stress-related, or stress-compounded health problems that dogs can suffer from, but they're often not recognised until the damage is done. I'm sure some of our vet nurses here can expand on this bit!

DBB

StompToWork wrote: »

It's getting harder and harder not to start taking this personally. Essentially, what people who are against these fences are saying is that I am either torturing, or psychologically damaging my dog. I have done the research. My parents have used the same system on their dog for over 5 years now, and he is one of the most well adjusted dogs I know. I have read the good and the bad about it, and in my situation, it is the best option. If people ask me their opinion, I will give it based on my experience, which has been, and continues to be good.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the signs of chronic anxiety is, considering that you say most owners find it hard to spot it. What should I be looking out for?

Sorry, I didn't see this post until after I posted the above, or I'd have answered your question about chronic stress earlier.
Look, nobody is personalising this: you keep saying that you find the system good, and now that you know somebody else that finds the system good with no ill-effects.
And I am saying that I have also used it, as have a number of people I know, and the number of those who had bad experiences with it outnumbered those that didn't.
You simply can't expect to say what you're saying without people who have had the opposite experience being allowed to voice their experiences too.
And the fact remains that he evidence backs up what I'm saying... that's the other reason I'm saying it, in addition to my personal experiences. And the main difference is that whilst your experience is anecdotal, as is mine, it cannot be used as a Big Picture, because neither your experiences, nor mine, of a tiny proportion of people who have used the radio fence, tell the whole story. However, as the multiplicity of research links I have already provided indicates, my anecdotal evidence is supported by what has been shown via empirical evidence.
I'm at a loss to understand what the issue is here. I've repeatedly said that people can continue to ignore the evidence (people do it with homoeopathy etc all the time), but to ignore that evidence AND continue to keep telling everyone what a brilliant system you believe it is, is just asking for people, or me at least, to feel the need to keep setting the record straight. I have at no point personalised it or cast any aspersions on anyone's dog husbandry, I have simply stated the facts as supported by the data.

krisroger

sillysmiles wrote: »

For those poster who are adamant against the use of the collars would it be possible for the OP to start boundary training his pup now with a reward training program? ie bring them out into the garden and when they start wandering towards the gate then call them back and reward them?

Hi ya we have started that already, she is pretty good (although still very young). I still wouldn't feel 100% comfortable leaving her at home without some reassurance as there are a lot of sheep in the area and also just incase she found her way the main road.

Alpha Dog 1

One thing I will say about the collars is that dog involved needs to be a pup or at least under 3 when being trained.

I've had loads of success training pups to use the system, however I am once tried to train a 10 year old springer and no matter how much I tried it just didn't work.

DBB

krisroger wrote: »

Hi ya we have started that already, she is pretty good (although still very young). I still wouldn't feel 100% comfortable leaving her at home without some reassurance as there are a lot of sheep in the area and also just incase she found her way the main road.

Another option for you op is to spend the money on a good run: it is fairly unusual for a dog to use the full extent of the garden when the owner's not there in any case, and if anything, they can start boundary-running when given full unfettered access tot he garden.
What would be a good compromise is to set up a good run, and to provide her with all of her meals within interactive toys: for example, if you're feeding her dry food, give her this is a Kong Wobbler (http://www.kongcompany.com/en-uk/products/for-dogs/interactive-toys/wobbler/wobbler/) or an Activity Ball... this stretches her meal over a much longer period of time, gives her something to do, and many dogs will snooze once they've had a good old root at a stuffed toy of this sort, or better still, several of them!
If you're feeding wet food, the good old fashioned Kong Toy (the bigger the better) is hard to beat, and Kong have a nice range of recipes to fill the Kong with: http://www.kongcompany.com/en-uk/recipes/

When she's old enough to manage it, a quick walk in the morning, and a longer walk when you get home, and you have a dog who is safe, and is not subject to the potential risks of the shock-collar system.

StompToWork

DBB wrote: »

Phew! I hope I can take this on here without going all jargon-y:o
There are quite a number of anxiety-related behaviours in dogs that are exacerbated by other sources of anxiety:<snip>

Thanks for the response. While I still believe that method I use to contain my dog is not doing him any harm, I would be silly not to seek the advice of someone with such experience as you have. I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to answer that question.

After participating in this thread, I will certainly be keeping a much closer eye on Deefor and his behaviour for the next while to make sure that there is no adverse effects that I can see. I won't be pulling up my electric fence just yet, but anything is possible.

As for the symptoms and signs you described, the one that stands out to me is the excessive grooming. Deefor has recently (in the last 5 months) started to groom his hind quarter quite a lot (not to the point of licking it red raw or anything, but it is a change in behaviour). That said, I have put it down to his two surgeries to address luxated petellas last year. He will probably always have little twinges and probably already has a small bit of arthritis setting in, so we manage the pain when needed, and one of the signs is paying his hind quarters a lot of attention. He does bite his back paws from time to time, but the surgeon did say that would be one of the signs of discomfort, and that's our queue to rest him up for a day, and manage with some pain meds. There is actually an injection that our local vet can administer (well, it's more like 4 injections over 4 weeks, twice a year) that will provide some longer term relief. I keep meaning to look into that and get it done. Once that is done, I should be better able to see if there is an improvement. If not, then I will look into the other areas of stress, including the fence.

DBB

StompToWork wrote: »

As for the symptoms and signs you described, the one that stands out to me is the excessive grooming. Deefor has recently (in the last 5 months) started to groom his hind quarter quite a lot (not to the point of licking it red raw or anything, but it is a change in behaviour). That said, I have put it down to his two surgeries to address luxated petellas last year. He will probably always have little twinges and probably already has a small bit of arthritis setting in, so we manage the pain when needed, and one of the signs is paying his hind quarters a lot of attention. He does bite his back paws from time to time, but the surgeon did say that would be one of the signs of discomfort, and that's our queue to rest him up for a day, and manage with some pain meds. There is actually an injection that our local vet can administer (well, it's more like 4 injections over 4 weeks, twice a year) that will provide some longer term relief. I keep meaning to look into that and get it done. Once that is done, I should be better able to see if there is an improvement. If not, then I will look into the other areas of stress, including the fence.

In all honesty, it would be hard to see the fence playing a primary role in this... there's a chance it could play a small role in generalised anxiety, but in this case your dog has a clear and legitimate reason for rooting around his hind legs.
If he's uncomfortable at any point in his body, a lot of dogs will chew at a different point to relieve the discomfort, it's called "referred pain", where a sore spot causes apparent discomfort in another, sometimes seemingly unrelated spot, even though there may be no pain in the referred spot at all. This could be why he's chewing at his feet despite having sore knees.
You also need to bear in mind that sometimes, if a dog is sore, and starts to lick and chew at himself, he discovers that the licking and chewing feels good. So much so that even when the condition is dealt with and the dog is no longer painful, the self-comforting behaviour continues as it has become inherently rewarding. This can be more easily diagnosed if the vet has the original pain under good control, yet the behaviour continues unabated.
The injection you refer to is Cartrophen, it's damn good stuff and a great alternative to oral anti-inflammatories like Metacam. It has pain-relief properties, but it can also help facilitate joint health, and I've always found it super as a fairly harmless long-term painkiller, particularly for joint-related problems:). It'll be very interesting to see if it has an effect on your fella!

StompToWork

DBB wrote: »

In all honesty, it would be hard to see the fence playing a primary role in this... there's a chance it could play a small role in generalised anxiety, but in this case your dog has a clear and legitimate reason for rooting around his hind legs.
If he's uncomfortable at any point in his body, a lot of dogs will chew at a different point to relieve the discomfort, it's called "referred pain", where a sore spot causes apparent discomfort in another, sometimes seemingly unrelated spot, even though there may be no pain in the referred spot at all. This could be why he's chewing at his feet despite having sore knees.
You also need to bear in mind that sometimes, if a dog is sore, and starts to lick and chew at himself, he discovers that the licking and chewing feels good. So much so that even when the condition is dealt with and the dog is no longer painful, the self-comforting behaviour continues as it has become inherently rewarding. This can be more easily diagnosed if the vet has the original pain under good control, yet the behaviour continues unabated.
The injection you refer to is Cartrophen, it's damn good stuff and a great alternative to oral anti-inflammatories like Metacam. It has pain-relief properties, but it can also help facilitate joint health, and I've always found it super as a fairly harmless long-term painkiller, particularly for joint-related problems:). It'll be very interesting to see if it has an effect on your fella!

Cartrophen, that's the stuff!! Couldn't for the life of em remember the name. We have Rimadyl that we administer when required, which thankfully would appear to be getting less frequently. We keep an eye on him in the evenings if he has had a particularly busy day, like a long stint on the beach or the like. The hardest thing to do, him being a lab, is keeping the weight down, but we are managing well so far.

However, we are getting wayyyyy off topic here. Thanks DBB.

StompToWork

Actually, it dawns on me, isn't Rimadyl and Cartrophen the same drug??

DBB

StompToWork wrote: »

Actually, it dawns on me, isn't Rimadyl and Cartrophen the same drug??

Carprofen is the same stuff as rimadyl.
But I don't think either is cartrophen, it's a different chemical (i think), with a ridiculously similar name :-D

krisroger

tk123 wrote: »

I wouldn't leave a pup of that age out in a garden full stop - too much can go wrong when they're entertaining themselves.

She's not outside on her own at the moment, I am looking for advice early for when she is bigger so as I can be prepared!

tk123

krisroger wrote: »

She's not outside on her own at the moment, I am looking for advice early for when she is bigger so as I can be prepared!

My pup got stung by a bee the second day we had her - only that I was with her at the time I was able to flick the bee off (with my ipad :P) and pull out the sting!

krisroger

ShaShaBear wrote: »

In fact I posted several pieces of useful information, ie what happens when the fence doesn't work. As it happens the OP ignored everyone except those for which the fence worked, so it was all in vain

Also, did you get shocked on the throat? :rolleyes:

I've just seen this post. I haven't ignored your posts, I will do more research I have plenty of time but I wanted to hear from those with experience of using the system

krisroger

DBB wrote: »

Another option for you op is to spend the money on a good run: it is fairly unusual for a dog to use the full extent of the garden when the owner's not there in any case, and if anything, they can start boundary-running when given full unfettered access tot he garden.
What would be a good compromise is to set up a good run, and to provide her with all of her meals within interactive toys: for example, if you're feeding her dry food, give her this is a Kong Wobbler (http://www.kongcompany.com/en-uk/products/for-dogs/interactive-toys/wobbler/wobbler/) or an Activity Ball... this stretches her meal over a much longer period of time, gives her something to do, and many dogs will snooze once they've had a good old root at a stuffed toy of this sort, or better still, several of them!
If you're feeding wet food, the good old fashioned Kong Toy (the bigger the better) is hard to beat, and Kong have a nice range of recipes to fill the Kong with: http://www.kongcompany.com/en-uk/recipes/

When she's old enough to manage it, a quick walk in the morning, and a longer walk when you get home, and you have a dog who is safe, and is not subject to the potential risks of the shock-collar system.

Thank you, I will look into this also. I spend a half hour outside with her before work every morning and I myself go walking every evening so she will be getting plenty of walks but I just initially felt bad at the thought of putting her inside a fence while I'm at work but having seen the other side of the argument it's something I might consider now. As I said, I was very interested in hearing about the system as have only heard the good reports from friends up to now...

borderlinemeath

krisroger wrote: »

Thank you, I will look into this also. I spend a half hour outside with her before work every morning and I myself go walking every evening so she will be getting plenty of walks but I just initially felt bad at the thought of putting her inside a fence while I'm at work but having seen the other side of the argument it's something I might consider now. As I said, I was very interested in hearing about the system as have only heard the good reports from friends up to now...

Slightly off topic but don't overwalk a young pup, particularly the cross breed you have as both breeds are very prone to joint problems later in life. A pup needs only 5 minutes per month of life, so at the moment 10-15 mins MAX is all that's needed. Playing is different though, a pup can stop and rest when tired, but a long walk without the opportunity to rest can do invisible damage that your dog will suffer from later in life.

krisroger

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Slightly off topic but don't overwalk a young pup, particularly the cross breed you have as both breeds are very prone to joint problems later in life. A pup needs only 5 minutes per month of life, so at the moment 10-15 mins MAX is all that's needed. Playing is different though, a pup can stop and rest when tired, but a long walk without the opportunity to rest can do invisible damage that your dog will suffer from later in life.

Thanks, I don't bring her walking with me in the evenings yet. We only walk around the house in the morning and at night.

muddypaws

krisroger wrote: »

I've just seen this post. I haven't ignored your posts, I will do more research I have plenty of time but I wanted to hear from those with experience of using the system

Its great that you're looking into it, and I appreciate that you wanted to hear from people who use or have used it, but people who have looked into in the past, and made the decision not to use it I think also have an equally valid point of view. Whilst running a rescue, I unfortunately have had to deal with owners who's dogs escaped whilst wearing the collar, and have taken in a lot of dogs from pounds who were picked up straying whilst wearing a collar, and who were never re-united with their owners And, as has been noted, the collars don't stop someone coming into your property and stealing your dog, or prevent other dogs from coming in and attacking your dog, and your dog can't then run away to safety.

DBB

krisroger wrote: »

As I said, I was very interested in hearing about the system as have only heard the good reports from friends up to now...

Sorry OP, in all the madness yesterday I never got around to telling you about my experience with the system! I can also tell you about my friends' experiences.
I stopped using it a long time ago. My dogs were trained to the letter, and would never leave the garden. That is unless I was gone, and they saw someone they knew passing the garden on their way to the beach for a walk. I watched my dogs in one such occasion: they stood back from the fence, wound themselves up, and dashed as fast as they could through it, yelping as they got the shock. Luckily, the people they were following knew to take the collars off them before returning them to the garden, replacing the collar once back in.
They also crossed the boundary if they were chasing a cat or charging at their local arch-nemeses dogs: when dogs are revved up on a chase, it's unlikely they feel the shock at all with the adrenalin-rush.

One day, luckily whilst I was at home, I heard my dogs yelping. I raced to where they were sunbathing in the middle of the garden, and they were desperately distressed. It was only when I got near them could I hear the collars discharging again and again into their throats. The system had malfunctioned with some sort of power-surge. The manufacturers replaced the system. Bizarrely, only days later, precisely the same thing happened with a friend's system.

My neighbour down the road also had the system installed. Two dogs went into her garden one day and killed her dog, a Labrador, who could not escape from them.

I personally know 5 dogs who learned to sit just at the edge of the fence's range, causing the battery to wear down, at which moment the dog would trot off for a nice wander around the neighbourhood.

As I described above, I know a Great Dane living locally who needs to be carried out to the car after getting one shock from the system. He is terrified of going into the garden at all, ever. The day he got that first shock, he both peed and crapped on himself.

Another friend recently lost her two setters, both of them wearing their radio collars. They disappeared before Christmas, last seen trotting out of her gates, and have not surfaced since despite a concerted campaign.

So, that's just some of the dogs I know personally, belonging to me or my friends/neighbours, and our experiences over the past 10 years, and I admit to having some serious ongoing guilt over ever using the damn thing. But in a professional capacity (training), I see a number of dogs every year who are exhibiting behavioural problems due directly or in part to the radio fence. Aggression to passers-by is a very common one. Aggression towards a person or animal who happened to be near the dog when he got shocked is another. Trouble getting the dog out of the garden to go for walks is also common, the owners having to resort to driving their dog over the boundary.

Do I know owners who have used it successfully? Yes, of course. But honestly, I know more people who have problems with it than I know people who have used it successfully. By successfully, I mean that they keep the dogs in. It does not reflect the potential behaviour and welfare problems that are pretty common with the system.

krisroger

DBB wrote: »

Sorry OP, in all the madness yesterday I never got around to telling you about my experience with the system! I can also tell you about my friends' experiences.
I stopped using it a long time ago. My dogs were trained to the letter, and would never leave the garden. That is unless I was gone, and they saw someone they knew passing the garden on their way to the beach for a walk. I watched my dogs in one such occasion: they stood back from the fence, wound themselves up, and dashed as fast as they could through it, yelping as they got the shock. Luckily, the people they were following knew to take the collars off them before returning them to the garden, replacing the collar once back in.
They also crossed the boundary if they were chasing a cat or charging at their local arch-nemeses dogs: when dogs are revved up on a chase, it's unlikely they feel the shock at all with the adrenalin-rush.

One day, luckily whilst I was at home, I heard my dogs yelping. I raced to where they were sunbathing in the middle of the garden, and they were desperately distressed. It was only when I got near them could I hear the collars discharging again and again into their throats. The system had malfunctioned with some sort of power-surge. The manufacturers replaced the system. Bizarrely, only days later, precisely the same thing happened with a friend's system.

My neighbour down the road also had the system installed. Two dogs went into her garden one day and killed her dog, a Labrador, who could not escape from them.

I personally know 5 dogs who learned to sit just at the edge of the fence's range, causing the battery to wear down, at which moment the dog would trot off for a nice wander around the neighbourhood.

As I described above, I know a Great Dane living locally who needs to be carried out to the car after getting one shock from the system. He is terrified of going into the garden at all, ever. The day he got that first shock, he both peed and crapped on himself.

Another friend recently lost her two setters, both of them wearing their radio collars. They disappeared before Christmas, last seen trotting out of her gates, and have not surfaced since despite a concerted campaign.

So, that's just some of the dogs I know personally, belonging to me or my friends/neighbours, and our experiences over the past 10 years, and I admit to having some serious ongoing guilt over ever using the damn thing. But in a professional capacity (training), I see a number of dogs every year who are exhibiting behavioural problems due directly or in part to the radio fence. Aggression to passers-by is a very common one. Aggression towards a person or animal who happened to be near the dog when he got shocked is another. Trouble getting the dog out of the garden to go for walks is also common, the owners having to resort to driving their dog over the boundary.

Do I know owners who have used it successfully? Yes, of course. But honestly, I know more people who have problems with it than I know people who have used it successfully. By successfully, I mean that they keep the dogs in. It does not reflect the potential behaviour and welfare problems that are pretty common with the system.

Thank you for that. Good to know, sounds like the system is not for us... As I said, I had never heard any negative feedback about them but this has definitely made me reconsider.

CollyFowler

krisroger wrote: »

Thank you for that. Good to know, sounds like the system is not for us... As I said, I had never heard any negative feedback about them but this has definitely made me reconsider.

I have first hand experience with at least a Golden Retriever, Labrador, King Charles, Cock Spaniel, Terrier and a variety of mutts all using collars without any visible issues. A lot depends on the owner and training of the dog.

Kris you know yourself whats involved and the downsides to using these products. Personally I've found that creating a physical (slowdown) barrier in conjunction with a shock collar will work best. The dog is unable to run through an open space and "take a hit".