Wayne Rooney

8-10

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Falcao, Ibra as winger.

van Nistelrooij another one

rosskind

rarnes1 wrote: »

Stats however don't show two major assets he has, work rate and the desire to win.

I don't buy this work rate and desire thing.

Rooney was a big boy when he came on the scene. Well built, big shoulders. Ronaldo was skinny, little chicken legs on him. Now one has constant fitness problems and can't stay in shape and the other is one of the most beautiful athletes on the planet.

There was a time when they were equals. I'd imagine Ronaldo wakes up every single day trying to be better than Messi. He might not chase a full-back up and down the pitch like Rooney but thats doesnt mean Ronaldo cares any less about the team.

Anyone who says Messi was been anything but great in the last WC mustn't have watched it. Not the place, I know, but that frustrates me greatly.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Falcao, Ibra as winger.

Falcao could easily play as an attacking mid and do an effective job. in fact he has played deeper several times this season hence the lack of goals

Ibra is not world class. again another top class player and really good at what he does. but if he is sh*t at playing anywhere else on the field then he is just a specialist of one area and not world class

the term is so loosely thrown around. jesus people call nani world class ffs

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

8-10 wrote: »

van Nistelrooij another one

not world class

eagle eye

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Wayne Rooney is and has been a world class player for quite a few years now. I'd even argue that he and not Ronaldo was United's best player the season they won the Champion's league.

He has played so many different roles for United and excelled in them all.

Remember two seasons ago when he was put up front after years as a second striker/attacking mid and general hard worker? That's right he did the job expected of him yet again in a different position.

He is in the argument for me for greatest premier league player since its inception.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

eagle eye wrote: »

Wayne Rooney is and has been a world class player for quite a few years now. If even argue that he and not Ronaldo was United's best player the season they won the Champion's league.

He has played so many different roles for United and excelled in them all.

Remember two seasons ago when he was put up front after years as a second striker/attacking mid and general hard worker? That's right he did the job expected of him yet again in a different position.

He is in the argument for me for greatest premier league player since its inception.

wow

well fair play your devoted i give you that

rob316

Rooney is horribly overrated and not all that good

eagle eye wrote: »

Wayne Rooney is and has been a world class player for quite a few years now. I'd even argue that he and not Ronaldo was United's best player the season they won the Champion's league.

He has played so many different roles for United and excelled in them all.

Remember two seasons ago when he was put up front after years as a second striker/attacking mid and general hard worker? That's right he did the job expected of him yet again in a different position.

He is in the argument for me for greatest premier league player since its inception.

Not even close.

Turtyturd

Paulegend wrote: »

Falcao could easily play as an attacking mid and do an effective job. in fact he has played deeper several times this season hence the lack of goals

Ibra is not world class. again another top class player and really good at what he does. but if he is sh*t at playing anywhere else on the field then he is just a specialist of one area and not world class

the term is so loosely thrown around. jesus people call nani world class ffs

So are there no World Class goalkeepers?

8-10

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Paulegend wrote: »

Ibra is not world class.

Not really the thread to debate that but it's an opinion v opinion at the end of the day.

'World Class' is too loosely defined a term to have a definitive answer from player to player really, so we're left with sweeping statements from player to player. Which I'm fine with. I think Rooney is World Class and I think Zlatan is also.

If the definition is to be among the best in the world, Zlatan is clearly there.

maximoose

Paulegend wrote: »

Ibra is not world class. again another top class player and really good at what he does. but if he is sh*t at playing anywhere else on the field then he is just a specialist of one area and not world class

This is just plain stupid.

Skylinehead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Messi's legacy will be tarnished to some degree or another by his International record though(barring him changing that this summer).

He already has. 2012, he got 12 goals in 9 games. Last year, 6 in 7. Pretty damn good. And he was great in the 2010 WC, he played a deeper, playmaking role so we were never going to
see him as the Messi we know.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Turtyturd wrote: »

So are there no World Class goalkeepers?

difference between a specialty position and playing in an attacking/defensive position

i never said Messi would be a great center back or that Ronaldo could do a job in goals

8-10 wrote: »

Not really the thread to debate that but it's an opinion v opinion at the end of the day.

'World Class' is too loosely defined a term to have a definitive answer from player to player really, so we're left with sweeping statements from player to player. Which I'm fine with. I think Rooney is World Class and I think Zlatan is also.

If the definition is to be among the best in the world, Zlatan is clearly there.

but in that case how many people would be in that world class bracket?

i think its a different question really. the definition or what is considered the definition of world class.

but if there are 100 players in that bracket is it still such an honorable mention? let alone if there are thousands as has been suggested.

i just mean in terms of the top very few players that maybe includes Messi Ronaldo Xavi Iniesta and just about Ribery. i just mean the top top players. the players where you name and cant think of anyone in the whole world that is a better player than them. suarez might get on that list if he keeps up his form next season in the champions league but for now i wouldnt include him just yet.

but that doesnt mean that suarez rooney rvp ozil mata hazard higgs cavani falcao robben and many many more arent amazing players.

thats all i think world class should mean. if there is a player that is better then you cant surely be world class

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

maximoose wrote: »

This is just plain stupid.

how profound

8-10

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Paulegend wrote: »

thats all i think world class should mean.

Nail on the head. Everybody has a different feel for what they think the term should mean. I think one player is, you think the same player is not and vice versa.

It's apples and oranges because we have different criteria. Unless there's a definitive definition it will always be opinion.

So yeah, a debate for a different place (was there once a thread on the subject?)

That's why I think the poll will end up being skewed but hey, it's a message board and a bit of debate. What's really underlying this thread is the notion that Rooney is overhyped due to English sentiment. So the debate is really around how good is he and how important is he to England, relative to this sentiment?

Turtyturd

John O'Shea utility man....World class?

bangkok

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmfb24HcljQ


I say no more

bangkok

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjWfcIr8JO4

maybe 1 more....:D

bangkok

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Turtyturd wrote: »

John O'Shea utility man....World class?

no..... sh1t in all positions

Skylinehead

Paulegend wrote: »

difference between a specialty position and playing in an attacking/defensive position

i never said Messi would be a great center back or that Ronaldo could do a job in goals





but in that case how many people would be in that world class bracket?

i think its a different question really. the definition or what is considered the definition of world class.

but if there are 100 players in that bracket is it still such an honorable mention? let alone if there are thousands as has been suggested.

i just mean in terms of the top very few players that maybe includes Messi Ronaldo Xavi Iniesta and just about Ribery. i just mean the top top players. the players where you name and cant think of anyone in the whole world that is a better player than them. suarez might get on that list if he keeps up his form next season in the champions league but for now i wouldnt include him just yet.

but that doesnt mean that suarez rooney rvp ozil mata hazard higgs cavani falcao robben and many many more arent amazing players.

thats all i think world class should mean. if there is a player that is better then you cant surely be world class

Xavi can only play one position. Is he crap?

bucketybuck

Rooney is good but very overrated

rarnes1 wrote: »

Stats however don't show two major assets he has, work rate and the desire to win.

And I consider this a damning indictment of Rooneys place in the pantheon. If your major assets in a discussion of world class are workrate and desire then you aren't world class. You need to have a whole lot more in your locker than that.

Think of all the legends of the game, the Figo's, Zidanes, Ronaldos, nobody considers them world class because of their work rate, its their insane skill and talent to create that makes them legends. Work rate and desire are just a given.

If Messi was a lazy little git then he would still be world class. But if Rooney never did those pitch length runs to make a tackle, if he just wandered about up front, would he still be considered world class? I doubt it. Those hollywood tackles mask a lot of problems in my opinion.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

8-10 wrote: »

Nail on the head. Everybody has a different feel for what they think the term should mean. I think one player is, you think the same player is not and vice versa.

It's apples and oranges because we have different criteria. Unless there's a definitive definition it will always be opinion.

So yeah, a debate for a different place (was there once a thread on the subject?)

That's why I think the poll will end up being skewed but hey, it's a message board and a bit of debate. What's really underlying this thread is the notion that Rooney is overhyped due to English sentiment. So the debate is really around how good is he and how important is he to England, relative to this sentiment?

ah yea sure thats the beauty of boards all about debate. the same as the conversations youd have around a couple of pints down the local

thats why as someone mentioned, world class is a subjective term. its like art. its how much you appreciate it

no matter if we think he is "world class" or "just alright" he is actually a great player and i doubt there would be a lot of teams that would turn him down

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Skylinehead wrote: »

Xavi can only play one position. Is he crap?

so Xavi wouldnt do a good job in the number 10 role??

your just talking stupid now

Xavi can play deep, center or advanced. he could even play as a second striker

Liam O

Paulegend wrote: »

so a world class striker cant pay in a different attacking position?

name one truly world class striker who would struggle on the wing or in an attacking mid role??

Falcao, RVP, Cavani, Ibrahimovic. Messi is nowhere near as good. Don't think Suarez or Aguero would be. So yeah, just all the best strikers in the world. It's not like Rooney struggles from those areas stats wise either. As for Sturridge being a better finisher than Rooney, come back to me when he drags his team to a CL final and scores a goal in said final.

With regards the response from rarnes to my post above, I obviously didn't mean every Liverpool fan has that view but the 2 prominent ones in this thread definitely seem to.

Skylinehead

Paulegend wrote: »

so Xavi wouldnt do a good job in the number 10 role??

your just talking stupid now

Xavi can play deep, center or advanced. he could even play as a second striker

He's not a number 10. He's a deep-lying playmaker who dictates play. Find me a game that he's playing second striker in, or your claim is completely without merit. How do you know he can play second striker?

Liam O

bucketybuck wrote: »

And I consider this a damning indictment of Rooneys place in the pantheon. If your major assets in a discussion of world class are workrate and desire then you aren't world class. You need to have a whole lot more in your locker than that.

Think of all the legends of the game, the Figo's, Zidanes, Ronaldos, nobody considers them world class because of their work rate, its their insane skill and talent to create that makes them legends. Work rate and desire are just a given.

If Messi was a lazy little git then he would still be world class. But if Rooney never did those pitch length runs to make a tackle, if he just wandered about up front, would he still be considered world class? I doubt it. Those hollywood tackles mask a lot of problems in my opinion.

He would be because then he'd score more goals if he was forward more. I think his record proves that.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Liam O wrote: »

Falcao, RVP, Cavani, Ibrahimovic. Messi is nowhere near as good. Don't think Suarez or Aguero would be. So yeah, just all the best strikers in the world. It's not like Rooney struggles from those areas stats wise either. As for Sturridge being a better finisher than Rooney, come back to me when he drags his team to a CL final and scores a goal in said final.

With regards the response from rarnes to my post above, I obviously didn't mean every Liverpool fan has that view but the 2 prominent ones in this thread definitely seem to.

like me? i couldnt give a sh*t if Danny plays for england or not. why would i care? i was watching the irish match last night so i couldnt give a toss as long as the liverpool lads dont pick up an injury for england

but yes Danny has shown he is a better finisher. dragging his team to the champions league final he may not have had a chance to do yet, but he certainly has dragged liverpool to wins this season. his form may be just down to form but by his "form" he is the better striker "right now"

so RVP never played well in attacking mid or out wide for arsenal?
Suarez doesnt play well for liverpool out wide?
cavani didnt play well out wide at napoli at times and doesnt play well wide for psg?
falcao hasnt played well when he played as a number 10 this season?
aguero didnt do it when he was in spain and at times at city??

they have all played wide and behind a striker far more effectively than rooney

at least try to know what you are talking about before replying

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Skylinehead wrote: »

He's not a number 10. He's a deep-lying playmaker who dictates play. Find me a game that he's playing second striker in, or your claim is completely without merit. How do you know he can play second striker?

i never said he was a number 10

i said that he has played as a number 10

early on in his career he often played as number 10 for barca

Will I Amnt

Paulegend wrote: »

so a world class striker cant pay in a different attacking position?

name one truly world class striker who would struggle on the wing or in an attacking mid role??

I think it's all been covered already by others. You are basing your argument on guesswork, until you see other players being shunted around you won't know how they play in various positions.

You judge a player on their best position, that's just common sense.
If Messi was moved out to the wing for the rest of the season and performed poorly would you no longer rate him in the world class bracket?

Skylinehead

Paulegend wrote: »

i never said he was a number 10

i said that he has played as a number 10

early on in his career he often played as number 10 for barca

You're right, he played in a (slightly) more advanced role. 10 years ago. Not now though, does that mean he's no longer world class?

And you didn't answer my second striker part.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I think it's all been covered already by others. You are basing your argument on guesswork, until you see other players being shunted around you won't know how they play in various positions.

You judge a player on their best position, that's just common sense.
If Messi was moved out to the wing for the rest of the season and performed poorly would you no longer rate him in the world class bracket?

wtf are you even talking about??

where did Messi play for Barca for most of his career?????????????????

not as a striker

Skylinehead wrote: »

You're right, he played in a (slightly) more advanced role. 10 years ago. Not now though, does that mean he's no longer world class?

And you didn't answer my second striker part.

i feel like your glossing over my point to take away light from the fact that the excuse used for Rooney is just that. an excuse.

Rooney is not world class. never was never will be

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

i like how people here seem to forget that Messi played as a wide forward most of his career

Skylinehead

Paulegend wrote: »

i feel like your glossing over my point to take away light from the fact that the excuse used for Rooney is just that. an excuse.

Rooney is not world class. never was never will be

I feel like you're purposely ignoring my question because you can't answer it.

As for Rooney never being world class, how is 34 goals in 44 games and 34 goals in 43 games respectively not world class?

Will I Amnt

Paulegend wrote: »

wtf are you even talking about?

Untwist your knickers there. I said if he moved out there for the rest of the season and played poorly.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Untwist your knickers there. I said if he moved out there for the rest of the season and played poorly.

so basically making up a scenario?

what if he stayed as a center forward and played poorly? if we are going to just make stuff up

jesus everyone on here takes stuff so personally

all i said was that if he was "world class" he would be still playing great football instead of being ineffective

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Skylinehead wrote: »

I feel like you're purposely ignoring my question because you can't answer it.

As for Rooney never being world class, how is 34 goals in 44 games and 34 goals in 43 games respectively not world class?

ignoring your question? your question of when has he played as a 2nd striker? i never said he did. i said im sure he could play it doing a half decent job, and we wouldnt be sitting here making excuses for him saying he would be world class if he played his real position. i mean come on we are talking about the difference of Rooney paying number 10 and Rooney playing 5 yards more forward........................... its not exactly moving him to full back

2 seasons in his whole career your pointing to.

is adeybour world class too???

Will I Amnt

Paulegend wrote: »

so basically making up a scenario?

what if he stayed as a center forward and played poorly? if we are going to just make stuff up

jesus everyone on here takes stuff so personally

Making up a scenario to point out the flaw in your bizarre little requirement to be considered world class.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Making up a scenario to point out the flaw in your bizarre little requirement to be considered world class.

what flaw?

im not putting in a bizare little requirement

im saying that if your a world class player then maybe you can play both left and right wing

or you can play both left and right full back

or you can play on both sides of center back

or deep mid and center mid

or attack mid and center mid

or striker and supporting striker

all im saying is that if he is world class he wouldnt be totally useless playing 5 yards back from his so called best position

surely that is an accurate statement in any other debate.

jesus if we where saying the same thing about Gerrard id agree. if he couldnt play in this new role i would seriously question his right to ever be in the tag of "world class"

Will I Amnt

Vidic was a world class centre back, I'd imagine he'd be a sh*t right back. Does this mean I can no longer consider him world class?

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Vidic was a world class centre back, I'd imagine he'd be a sh*t right back. Does this mean I can no longer consider him world class?

but would you not think he could at least do an effective job at right back or in defensive mid if he really had to?

of course he could

that been said im not saying that he is or isnt world class. im just saying he could play the role and do a great job

Will I Amnt

Paulegend wrote: »

but would you not think he could at least do an effective job at right back or in defensive mid if he really had to?

of course he could

No, I don't. Especially not in midfield because he is not very good with the ball at his feet. He makes up for it in so many other ways that made him one of the best around.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

No, I don't. Especially not in midfield because he is not very good with the ball at his feet. He makes up for it in so many other ways that made him one of the best around.

Gattuso
Cambiasso
Albertini

just three examples of defensive mids who wherent exactly known fro their skill on the ball. hell look at flamini he is poor on the ball to be fair but he is a rock for arsenal. without him they struggle this year. he is probably more their reason for keeping clean sheets than any of their defence

with his positioning and ability in the air along with his strength and ability to read the game i think he would be a class player for loads of teams as a defensive mid

but again thats all opinions i guess as we can never actually tell if its true or not

Will I Amnt

Well you see, nobody will ever give a sh*t how good Vidic might be in midfield. He will be known as a brilliant centre back. Nothing else matters.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well you see, nobody will ever give a sh*t how good Vidic might be in midfield. He will be known as a brilliant centre back. Nothing else matters.

no doubt. never disputed

Rooneys world class status is the thing being disputed

but the truth is it doesnt matter. world class to you will have a different meaning to world class to me.

i feel world class means that when you name a player you cant actually name a better player than them

that works for keppers defenders, mids (attacking or defensive) and attackers

Messi - who is better than him at doing what he does?
Ronaldo - who is better than him at doing what he does?
Xavi - who is better than him at doing what he does?

thats the way i look at world class. im sure everyone has their own definitions

Agueroooo

Rooney is good but very overrated

Paulegend wrote: »

Messi - who is better than him at doing what he does? < Gary Breen
Ronaldo - who is better than him at doing what he does? < Gary Breen
Xavi - who is better than him at doing what he does? < Gary Breen

.

Skylinehead

Paulegend wrote: »

ignoring your question? your question of when has he played as a 2nd striker? i never said he did. i said im sure he could play it doing a half decent job, and we wouldnt be sitting here making excuses for him saying he would be world class if he played his real position. i mean come on we are talking about the difference of Rooney paying number 10 and Rooney playing 5 yards more forward........................... its not exactly moving him to full back

2 seasons in his whole career your pointing to.

is adeybour world class too???

So you're making assumptions as to whether he's a good SS or not. Right.

As for Rooney, you said he was never world class. Those 2 seasons prove you wrong.

Paulegend wrote: »

Gattuso
Cambiasso
Albertini

just three examples of defensive mids who wherent exactly known fro their skill on the ball. hell look at flamini he is poor on the ball to be fair but he is a rock for arsenal. without him they struggle this year. he is probably more their reason for keeping clean sheets than any of their defence

with his positioning and ability in the air along with his strength and ability to read the game i think he would be a class player for loads of teams as a defensive mid

but again thats all opinions i guess as we can never actually tell if its true or not

Cambiasso is superb on the ball, check out the goal in the Argentina-Serbia match in 06. Flamini is perfectly fine as well.

Pro. F

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Paulegend wrote: »

Rooney has only scored more than 16 goals in the league twice in his whole career and hit the 20 mark only 4 times in all comps in 12 years playing regular first team football

he is not a world class player by any means

So 7 months on and you are still using the same flawed argument about Rooney's goal scoring record. Here's the response I gave you last summer, it still applies now:

I think it's fair to say that Didier Drogba and RvP have been two of the best strikers in the PL over the past decade. Most people would agree with that (maybe you don't). I would say that Rooney matches up well with that pair when you look at goalscoring records. Let's compare their time in the PL with Rooney's time at United. I'm going to discount his time at Everton, otherwise ages and quality of teams wouldn't be comparable.

Number of seasons scoring 16+ league goals:

1st RvP 3/10 seasons scoring 16+ league goals
2nd Drogba 2/8 seasons scoring 16+ league goals
3rd Rooney 2/9 seasons scoring 16+ league goals

So it turns out, if you chose to use that particularly obscure metric to judge them, Rooney is not in fact very far behind at all.

A more sensible metric might be total league goals:

1st Rooney ... 141 (United-Everton)
2nd RvP ....... 122 (Arsenal+United)
3rd Drogba ... 100 (Chelsea)

But Rooney has played more games than the other two, so how about goals/game:

1st Rooney ... 0.464 (United-Everton)
2nd RVP ....... 0.436 (Arsenal+United)
3rd Drogba ... 0.366 (Chelsea)

(source: premierleague.com)

So... Rooney's goal scoring record is in fact better than RvP's and Drogba's when compared over a similar period in their careers.

I'm not saying that he is a better striker than those two players, there are too many variables, but he is of course on the same level as them. Goalscoring is clearly not a Rooney weakness so the people looking to criticise him really should stop bringing it up.

Back then you were claiming that Rooney was an average striker and that Suarez, Tevez, Mario Gomez, Higuin and more were all world class. Now, when the question of world class comes up, you're claiming that Suarez, RvP, Ozil, Mata, Hazard, Cavani, Falcao, Robben, Ibrahimovic, van Nistelrooy and more aren't/weren't world class. That's quite a change of perspective. It's almost like you will argue anything as long as you can use it to criticise Rooney.

Paulegend

Rooney is good but very overrated

Skylinehead wrote: »

So you're making assumptions as to whether he's a good SS or not. Right.

As for Rooney, you said he was never world class. Those 2 seasons prove you wrong.


Cambiasso is superb on the ball, check out the goal in the Argentina-Serbia match in 06. Flamini is perfectly fine as well.

even masherano had flashes of greatness on the ball but he was never exactly a ball player either

yea i must be completely wrong about rooney yea is is world class. it must be a conspiracy that he doesnt get the player of the year award for it. jesus how many player of the month awards has he picked up even?? i know he has a few but surely if he is world class he would have won one recently right??

no wait its 3 or 4 years. then before that another 5 years

but wait that cant be if he is world class then he is surely one of the best players in the world???

ok all smartass talk aside.

instead of saying is he world class. answer me this. how many players would you say are better than him? in the world rankings where would rooney be? top 10? top 100? top 1000? im just wondering how many world class players there are in your definition

eagle eye

Rooney is a great player but not World class or a football legend

Paulegend wrote: »

wow

well fair play your devoted i give you that

Devoted? I don't like the guy and I'm not a United or England fan. I just say it as I see it and for me Rooney is and has been world class for quite a while now.

Skylinehead

Pro. F wrote: »

So 7 months on and you are still using the same flawed argument about Rooney's goal scoring record. Here's the response I gave you last summer, it still applies now:



Back then you were claiming that Rooney was an average striker and that Suarez, Tevez, Mario Gomez, Higuin and more were all world class. Now, when the question of world class comes up, you're claiming that Suarez, RvP, Ozil, Mata, Hazard, Cavani, Falcao, Robben, Ibrahimovic, van Nistelrooy and more aren't/weren't world class. That's quite a change of perspective. It's almost like you will argue anything as long as you can use it to criticise Rooney.

Hmm, that's very interesting. Mario Gomez can definitely not play any position other than striker, and Paullegend is claiming him as world class. Hmmmmmmmm.

Will I Amnt

Oh... so you're the guy that said Rooney was on the same level as Darren Bent???
It makes more sense now :rolleyes: