*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2015*

fitzyg

ronivek wrote: »

Since it's a standardised test scored based on curve fitting rather than absolute marks I think it's basically impossible to allow a resit. They would have to give them a different paper which essentially invalidates the entire test; meaning everyone would have to sit it again.

Not to mention the fact they would need to design a new paper since as far as I can tell there has never been a resit in the entire history of the UMAT or HPAT; so it's not like they would have a contingency plan in place.



Well firstly they explicitly state that all questions are marked equally; but they can and have in the past removed questions from the final marks awarded. The issue here is that not everyone completes the test in the same order; so they can't really determine which questions to remove. In addition it then becomes unfair on the people who have specifically chosen to spend more time on those questions; for example.

Not that I'm an expert in the matter or anything but my feeling is that they'll simply find the section 3 mean across all other test centres and apply some sort of corrective function to everyone who sat the exam in that particular location. So someone who is awful in section 3 may get a slight boost and someone very good a slight decrease; but in the grand scheme of things it should hopefully even out. I'm sure there are plenty of more precise statistical methods they could use but that's just a simple example.

honestly I dont know what theyll do, but surely theyll have to do something? A resit makes the most sense but I doubt it would happen and they cant really do anything statistically like evening out the means because its such a small sample size?
They can't just do nothing though.
regardless, wouldnt like to be in that supervisors shoes atm!

LauraKc

etherealfairy wrote: »

But all of the medical lecturers I've spoken to, (TCD, NUIG, UCD and UCC) as well as consultants have all stated that they believe it is not a fair and accurate way of choosing future doctors.

It may not be a perfect system but I think an interview or personal statement gives a lot more scope for bias. I think it should be a more transparent system though with past papers and marking schemes available just like the leaving cert.

ronivek

LauraKc wrote: »

It may not be a perfect system but I think an interview or personal statement gives a lot more scope for bias. I think it should be a more transparent system though with past papers and marking schemes available just like the leaving cert.

Indeed; but bear in mind that mature entry to medicine is very much about your personal statement and your interview. There is still an HPAT requirement but it's not as extreme as that required for school leavers; I've seen people accepted with 60th percentile for example. You do have to wait until you're 23 but it gives you a chance to live your life a little before Medicine takes it over.

Chris24oh96

ronivek wrote: »

So it's fine that 200+ people were given 5 minutes less and potentially seriously inconvenienced, but not to try and make the results fairer for them? How about if you were sitting the exam in that group; would you still maintain this view?

In addition it wouldn't be a random alteration; it would be based on statistical methods. Which by the way the entire ACER scoring system is based on; they freely admit to using those methods, but they don't make public precisely how they use them.

If you read what I wrote, it's clearly not a view! I never said it was fine and I do think it is unacceptable but think about what you are saying. Acer are not going to give people extra marks regardless of how statistically they do it. They will definitively not touch scores it would make the process even more unfair. And yes averaging out scores is a random alteration to to scores concerned. And again I'll say Acer probably don't have the right or capability to alter anyone's scores. if they touch anybody's scores some are going to be advantages and some are going to be disadvantaged in regards to gaining entry to med school therefore I would imagine a lot of controversy for acer if they pursued such a means of rectifying this mess.

ronivek

fitzyg wrote: »

honestly I dont know what theyll do, but surely theyll have to do something? A resit makes the most sense but I doubt it would happen and they cant really do anything statistically like evening out the means because its such a small sample size?
They can't just do nothing though.
regardless, wouldnt like to be in that supervisors shoes atm!

200 is a reasonable sample size; especially if they randomly assign people to venues. I suspect they wouldn't use a venue which holds less than whatever number they require to work out issues like this. I'm sure it's not the first time an exam has been affected by incidents outside the control of the candidates at a venue.

Gallagher1

LauraKc wrote: »

It may not be a perfect system but I think an interview or personal statement gives a lot more scope for bias. I think it should be a more transparent system though with past papers and marking schemes available just like the leaving cert.

Totally agree with this. Let's not forget also that in Ireland, it is a very very small world and bias could be a huge problem regarding interviews.I think ACER should also provide candidates with better quality practice material that actually represents the exam's difficulty, and in greater quantity too, if they want to try reduce this problem of kids, who do HPAT courses, having a so-called 'advantage' and if they want to create a level playing field throughout which would massively help the exam's integrity.

ronivek

Chris24oh96 wrote: »

If you read what I wrote, it's clearly not a view! I never said it was fine and I do think it is unacceptable but think about what you are saying. Acer are not going to give people extra marks regardless of how statistically they do it. They will definitively not touch scores it would make the process even more unfair. And yes averaging out scores is a random alteration to to scores concerned. And again I'll say Acer probably don't have the right or capability to alter anyone's scores. if they touch anybody's scores some are going to be advantages and some are going to be disadvantaged in regards to gaining entry to med school therefore I would imagine a lot of controversy for acer if they pursued such a means of rectifying this mess.

Of course they have the right; you agreed to give them that power when you signed up to sit the test. It's in their interests to make sure and act after something like that happens; the same way they removed certain questions from the marking last year when certain similarities between a practice exam from M-E and the HPAT surfaced.

Ultimately ACER have to answer to and convince the consortium of Irish medical schools that the process is well run and equitable otherwise they lose business.

LauraKc

ronivek wrote: »

Indeed; but bear in mind that mature entry to medicine is very much about your personal statement and your interview. There is still an HPAT requirement but it's not as extreme as that required for school leavers; I've seen people accepted with 60th percentile for example. You do have to wait until you're 23 but it gives you a chance to live your life a little before Medicine takes it over.

It's great that there are so many opportunities for people to enter a career in medicine at different stages of life rather than just one chance at the age of 17/18 nowadays but any system that gives room for discrimination and bias cannot be a good thing. I don't agree that we have to give our gender and ethnicity to acer. Any system in which a candidate is simply a number is a lot fairer in my opinion.

ac1234567

can people remember for section 2 what their answers were for the segements where a man was viewing x rays and for the segment where elizabeth gave flowers to her stepmother ?

Chris24oh96

ronivek wrote: »

Of course they have the right; you agreed to give them that power when you signed up to sit the test. It's in their interests to make sure and act after something like that happens; the same way they removed certain questions from the marking last year when certain similarities between a practice exam from M-E and the HPAT surfaced.

Ultimately ACER have to answer to and convince the consortium of Irish medical schools that the process is well run and equitable otherwise they lose business.

Your wrong, I did not give them the right to to unfairly compare me to other students, acer only have the right, in my opinion to mark my paper exactly the same as they mark yours. Removing m-e questions is a lot more straightforward than messing with people's scores. Acer will lose all credibility with the irish public and the irish universities if they start using averages to alter some peoples scores (it's not very accurate or fair). No matter how big the sample group by the way!

ronivek

LauraKc wrote: »

It's great that there are so many opportunities for people to enter a career in medicine at different stages of life rather than just one chance at the age of 17/18 nowadays but any system that gives room for discrimination and bias cannot be a good thing. I don't agree that we have to give our gender and ethnicity to acer. Any system in which a candidate is simply a number is a lot fairer in my opinion.

It's fairer to an extent sure; but that makes an assumption that the process to arrive at that number is itself free from bias.

How many kids from disadvantaged backgrounds get into University? How many with disabilities? How many with both?

You can't reduce a person to a number; that's why DARE and HEAR and mature entry exist.

And just to be clear I do agree that we should strive to remove unfair bias and discrimination; but I don't necessarily believe that it's possible or even beneficial for all purposes.

As far as ACER having access to that information it's ultimately for the purposes you have outlined as being your preference; in other words minimising bias and discrimination to the greatest extent possible.

LauraKc

ac1234567 wrote: »

can people remember for section 2 what their answers were for the segements where a man was viewing x rays and for the segment where elizabeth gave flowers to her stepmother ?

I think I said the man was disconnected and he doctor was tactful.
I think I said Elizabeth was aloof.

What did you say?

etherealfairy

ac1234567 wrote: »

can people remember for section 2 what their answers were for the segements where a man was viewing x rays and for the segment where elizabeth gave flowers to her stepmother ?

The best thing to do is forget about it and move on. No one will ever know what the right answers are.

ronivek

Chris24oh96 wrote: »

Your wrong, I did not give them the right to to unfairly compare me to other students, acer only have the right, in my opinion to mark my paper exactly the same as they mark yours. Removing m-e questions is a lot more straightforward than messing with people's scores. Acer will lose all credibility with the irish public and the irish universities if they start using averages to alter some peoples scores (it's not very accurate or fair). No matter how big the sample group by the way!

And comparing you to students who didn't complete the exam in the same time as you is fair? That's precisely the point I'm making; it isn't fair. The difference is that you're arguing that the number of people who are perceived to be disadvantaged is the most important factor; I'm arguing that the degree to which they are disadvantaged should be taken into account.

Anyway ultimately I believe those people will receive some kind of adjustment from ACER; albeit quite a minor one. I would like the whole process to be much more transparent but it isn't; and there's not a lot we can do about it.

Ultimately none of us has the "right" to be accepted to Medicine; we have to earn it. For some that might mean years of struggle; but if you want it badly enough, you'll get it.

futuremedic19

I agree it would be very difficult to abolish the HPAT.

The way the UK med schools do it is that you have to get work experience, write a personal statement, do the ukcat and have an interview. It's just soooo much hastle.

I mean what the medical schools in Ireland could do is to introduce a cutoff for the HPAT that isn't too high and neither too low. Then lets say a medical school has 100 places, they could interview the top 400 candidates who scored highest in HPAT, then the top 200 of the interview scorers get conditional offers and they have to acheive a certain number of points in their Leaving Cert combined with HPAT (so obvs higher hpat scorers are at an advantage) to get the place. Obviously for this to work they would have to place a restriction on candidates that they can only apply to 2 different medical schools otherwise the same people would get interviews everywhere.

With this way or something similar you would get to test an applicants academic potential with the leaving cert / intellectual ability with the HPAT and then Communication, Empathy and all the other skills in the interview.

In reality I highly highly doubt they will do anything like this but I just think it's not right they destroy our dreams and put soo much pressure and importance on the hpat.

Chris24oh96

ronivek wrote: »

And comparing you to students who didn't complete the exam in the same time as you is fair? That's precisely the point I'm making; it isn't fair. The difference is that you're arguing that the number of people who are perceived to be disadvantaged is the most important factor; I'm arguing that the degree to which they are disadvantaged should be taken into account.



Anyway ultimately I believe those people will receive some kind of adjustment from ACER; albeit quite a minor one. I would like the whole process to be much more transparent but it isn't; and there's not a lot we can do about it.

Ultimately none of us has the "right" to be accepted to Medicine; we have to earn it. For some that might mean years of struggle; but if you want it badly enough, you'll get it.

The point i am making is that it would not make it fair by them changing scores! Anyway, regardless, I'll bet the last thing Acer would do is to change scores. The personnel in charge will probably not admit fault and I'm afraid the likelyhood is that nothing will come your complaints.
And also I get the impression you were accusing me of declaring medicine to be a 'right' which i didn't. I suppose it is if you get the required results and surpass others to it.

ronivek

Chris24oh96 wrote: »

The point i am making is that it would not make it fair by them changing scores! Anyway, regardless, I'll bet the last thing Acer would do is to change scores. The personnel in charge will probably not admit fault and I'm afraid the likelyhood is that nothing will come your complaints.
And also I get the impression you were accusing me of declaring medicine to be a 'right' which i didn't. I suppose it is if you get the required results and surpass others to it.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; just trying to put things into perspective a little bit and offer my own opinion. On average for any given year about 12-14% of people who apply for Medicine actually get offered a place; there's a lot of competition and people need to prepare for the possibilty of failing in their application this year. In fact if you're a mature student I believe it's closer to 4/5%.

EoghanIRL

spurious wrote: »

Usually the rule with any mistakes made in exams and tests is that the candidate must not be put at a disadvantage because of a mistake made on the exam paper or by an agent of the examining authority, in this case the invigilator.

Giving a group of candidates less time in one centre compared to all the others is a serious mistake.

I hope those affected have organised themselves in some way, so that if a decision is made for one student, it will apply to all.

I agree with this ! People should complain in numbers and get a response.

To be fair , last year was a bigger sham !
Hpat is supposed to determine if someone can become a doctor in the future . The hpat completely undermines the entry standards to the profession .

Last year people who payed more money to do a course got an advantage due to the questions leaking .

This year people in some exam centres have an advantage over others!

Two years in a row is just simply not acceptable.

Last year I was close to medicine and ended up getting dentistry. We do most of the same modules and I manage to get on very well in all my exams . I definitely have the aptitude for it but I feel like I genuinely missed out because of the controversy last year!

Don't make the same mistake I made .Complain and get something done about it !

Kirby2k07

My friend did the paper this year, said the first passage of s2 was straight out of "eat pray love" as she'd just finished the book the past week! And last years I remember JK rowling's new adult novel came up. They seem to really go for all the mainstream fiction these days huh

OMGeary

Could they just not make everyone resit section 3 to make it fair.
Also I doubt the invigilators at trinity are going to take responsibility as they brushed it aside on the day.

Gallagher1

OMGeary wrote: »

Could they just not make everyone resit section 3 to make it fair.
Also I doubt the invigilators at trinity are going to take responsibility as they brushed it aside on the day.

Only flaw I could see in this is why should 90% of candidates have to sit the section again just because one invigilator screwed up things for the other 10%? What if someone who might have done really well on Saturday's S3 didn't do near as well if they had to re-sit it again? Surely that is unfair? The counter proposal would be to get the Trinity HPAT candidates only to re-sit S3. This again would be unfair on the other 90% as those students are getting a second crack of the whip, without the gruelling mental fatigue of the previous 2 sections..I feel so sorry for what happened to those students but you just cant impact the success and scores of the other students just because 250-300 students were extremely unfortunate in what happened to them.

EoghanIRL

Think of the expense of a resit .
At the end is the day acer are a buisness .

Mary63

Does anyone know when the results are out.

etherealfairy

Mary63 wrote: »

Does anyone know when the results are out.

The end of June, after the LC. April if you're a mature student.

XC90_D5

Did my HPAT in RCSI. All the staff were very friendly and professional. There was about 500 people in the room and we were waiting for an hour before it started. Overall thought it was harder than the ME exams, especially section 2 and 3. I was shocked that people were allowed digital watches and bottles of water with labels on them when the booklet emphasised that these were forbidden!

umar3061

Will points for medicine drop this year,as the test was thought to be harder than ME tests?

Username2222

Can anyone remember what they got for the question with the 3x3 block of colours, the two questions where they made up a box and told you like a row and a column and asked could you predict the colour of any blocks?

Nocofee

There was an article online that said a decision was due on the hpat by the end of 2014..what's the story with that???

randylonghorn

futuremedic19 wrote: »

I agree it would be very difficult to abolish the HPAT.

Why, though?

We got along without it for years, and could revert to that situation with just one policy decision; save a fair bit of money too.

And yes, I actually would agree that choosing medical students solely on LC results is not ideal, and fails to measure lots of aptitudes which are important in future doctors.

I have yet to see a whit of compelling evidence that HPAT is fit for purpose though, or rectifies that lack in any effective way.

For that matter, if the below is what is getting in with the HPAT (if he can be believed, of course!), then it's obviously failing miserably, given that it's supposed to be measuring empathy and interpersonal skills as one of its aims!

DoctorBae wrote: »

lol okay soz, didn't do hpat this year. Did it last year. Got in. thought this would be funny - and it was. You bunch of tits

DoctorBae wrote: »

Woah, chill your beans bro! This exam is nothing compared to whats coming. Finals, USMLE.. our life is going to be one big exam from here. Also, its kind of obvious that I don't actually talk like that but coming from someone who is so inbred they're practically a sandwich I would understand why that did get through to you. If this exam is going to leave you in a heap then I honestly feel you need to reassess whether or not you will make it along this career path. Also, ban me for all i care. Im burning this bridge to the ****ing ground and all you **** can burn with it xoxo

shakywaky

etherealfairy wrote: »

The end of June, after the LC. April if you're a mature student.

When do non-leaving certs get their results, i.e people who repeated hpat and are in college? Do they get them in April or June?