*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2015*

dalta5billion

What would be a satisfactory way in which to ensure fairness for all candidates given the "5 minute" incident? Should a CAO Med Applicants Union be set up to raise the issue directly with the HEA and the Department of Education?

At a minimum IMO, reviewing of scripts should be facilitated, and a full marking scheme should be published (the fact that this is not the case already is testament to the opaque nature of the exam). I would want the Department of Education to oversee a speedy investigation into how the exam was run this year, with a view to completing a later review of the HPAT as a whole.

If you're affected, you need to start the complaints procedure now. Email ACER, making clear that this is a formal complaint (I believe this has to be completed within 7 days of the exam). The issue can almost certainly be escalated to the Ombudsman (and indeed the Children's Ombudsman if you're <18), as the HEA falls under its remit, despite the fact that the HPAT is run by a private company. Making your initial complaint now is vital.

Is there any appetite for setting up such a union? All I see on this thread is this exam turning people against each other, and it's really distressing.

Doctorhopeful

dalta5billion wrote: »

What would be a satisfactory way in which to ensure fairness for all candidates given the "5 minute" incident? Should a CAO Med Applicants Union be set up to raise the issue directly with the HEA and the Department of Education?

At a minimum IMO, reviewing of scripts should be facilitated, and a full marking scheme should be published (the fact that this is not the case already is testament to the opaque nature of the exam). I would want the Department of Education to oversee a speedy investigation into how the exam was run this year, with a view to completing a later review of the HPAT as a whole.

If you're affected, you need to start the complaints procedure now. Email ACER, making clear that this is a formal complaint (I believe this has to be completed within 7 days of the exam). The issue can almost certainly be escalated to the Ombudsman (and indeed the Children's Ombudsman if you're <18), as the HEA falls under its remit, despite the fact that the HPAT is run by a private company. Making your initial complaint now is vital.

Is there any appetite for setting up such a union? All I see on this thread is this exam turning people against each other, and it's really distressing.

Although i fully encourage everyone who was affected to complain, i don't think a union is viable or feasible. About 200 people were affected and i'd be surprised if more than ten use boards. 200 would be a formidable lobby group but it'll only be possible to get in contact with a small fraction of those actually in the centre, unfortunately!

Username2222

emma35 wrote: »

what was the longest self avoiding route?

11 I think ?

Gallagher1

dalta5billion wrote: »

What would be a satisfactory way in which to ensure fairness for all candidates given the "5 minute" incident? Should a CAO Med Applicants Union be set up to raise the issue directly with the HEA and the Department of Education?

At a minimum IMO, reviewing of scripts should be facilitated, and a full marking scheme should be published (the fact that this is not the case already is testament to the opaque nature of the exam). I would want the Department of Education to oversee a speedy investigation into how the exam was run this year, with a view to completing a later review of the HPAT as a whole.

If you're affected, you need to start the complaints procedure now. Email ACER, making clear that this is a formal complaint (I believe this has to be completed within 7 days of the exam). The issue can almost certainly be escalated to the Ombudsman (and indeed the Children's Ombudsman if you're <18), as the HEA falls under its remit, despite the fact that the HPAT is run by a private company. Making your initial complaint now is vital.

Is there any appetite for setting up such a union? All I see on this thread is this exam turning people against each other, and it's really distressing.

Just curious, if everything went to plan, what would your desired outcome be of all this?

The exam was run perfectly this year imo apart from one invigilator making a stupid, stupid mistake? Only complaint I have is that they spent ages(forever) counting out the scripts beforehand and everyone seemed to be getting irritable, but when you take into account that every paper has to be accounted for, it seems to be a trivial complaint. This '5 minute' mistake happens in the LC too somewhere every year? Just because it happened in the HPAT (I know it is such a high stakes exam and therefore anger levels are through the roof..) doesn't mean a full report should be done into the exam, calling into question it's purpose and existence. I know you feel outraged (and rightly so!) but the invigilator is at fault;not ACER nor the concept of the HPAT exam itself. It was just horrifically cruel bad luck...

dalta5billion

Doctorhopeful wrote: »

Although i fully encourage everyone who was affected to complain, i don't think a union is viable or feasible. About 200 people were affected and i'd be surprised if more than ten use boards. 200 would be a formidable lobby group but it'll only be possible to get in contact with a small fraction of those actually in the centre, unfortunately!

Everyone who took the exam this year will be affected if scores are changed to account for the "5 minute" candidates. Therefore the integrity of the HPAT as a deciding factor for medicine admissions is completely compromised.

ACER is a private entity, which is most certainly going to cover its own ass (hence the secrecy of marking schemes). Student's need someone to represent their interests.

Facebook would be the best way to contact as many people as possible. Obviously the union would not represent everyone but would at least be able to interact with the media and to be big enough to make a level-headed and professional demand for clarity on this issue.

dalta5billion

Gallagher1 wrote: »

Just curious, if everything went to plan, what would your desired outcome be of all this?

The exam was run perfectly this year imo apart from one invigilator making a stupid, stupid mistake? Only complaint I have is that they spent ages(forever) counting out the scripts beforehand and everyone seemed to be getting irritable, but when you take into account that every paper has to be accounted for, it seems to be a trivial complaint. This '5 minute' mistake happens in the LC too somewhere every year? Just because it happened in the HPAT (I know it is such a high stakes exam and therefore anger levels are through the roof..) doesn't mean a full report should be done into the exam, calling into question it's purpose and existence. I know you feel outraged (and rightly so!) but the invigilator is at fault;not ACER nor the concept of the HPAT exam itself. It was just horrifically cruel bad luck...

A) The union would firstly demand clarity on how marks will be adjusted. The Leaving Cert is transparent in that scripts can be viewed, and the marking scheme is published. A defined appeals process exists. All that HPAT candidates will get is a score, with no indication of how it was calculated. The union would demand for a marking scheme to be published and a facility to view scripts to be made available.

The union would acknowledge that differing views on the merits of the HPAT as a whole exist among students and indeed among medical educators and practitioners. Therefore the union would call for a review of the HPAT by an independent party (a review which should, among other things, analyse the impact of this particular incident on all students who took the HPAT). All relevant parties with interests in the HPAT should be consulted, including students. The union would not take a stance on the abolishing/not abolishing argument, unless mandated to do so by a vote.

DepoProvera

ronivek wrote: »

I think the key to that question was noticing that for the first interval (i.e. the one most people decided was 1:2) in fact began slightly before a mark on the axis and ended slightly after the other mark... in other words it was actually slightly greater than 1:2 but the second part was most definitely exactly 1:1... thus 1:3, 1.1 should be the "closest" answer.

The next closest alternative I believe was 1:2, 1:2; which would have meant a relatively poor estimate for both ratios instead of an accurate estimate for one and a 'best' estimate for the other.

Anyway that was my reasoning; we'll probably never know which one was right though.

Yeah I was fairly I think my values were ~15:20 which was closer to 1:1 than 1:2 for the second ratio

Gallagher1

dalta5billion wrote: »

A) The union would firstly demand clarity on how marks will be adjusted. The Leaving Cert is transparent in that scripts can be viewed, and the marking scheme is published. A defined appeals process exists. All that HPAT candidates will get is a score, with no indication of how it was calculated. The union would demand for a marking scheme to be published and a facility to view scripts to be made available.

The union would acknowledge that differing views on the merits of the HPAT as a whole exist among students and indeed among medical educators and practitioners. Therefore the union would call for a review of the HPAT by an independent party (a review which should, among other things, analyse the impact of this particular incident on all students who took the HPAT). All relevant parties with interests in the HPAT should be consulted, including students. The union would not take a stance on the abolishing/not abolishing argument, unless mandated to do so by a vote.

Scores are calculated by computers in each section using incredibly complex mathematical/statistical algorithms, so if we were presented with it, we simply wouldn't understand but I presume it is done in a fair manner(Why wouldnt it?). I can guarantee that you filled in the remaining dots as guesses or left them blank on the answer sheet for S3 , so there's no point arguing/appealing with ACER over a wrong answer you've provided regardless of time constraints because they simply wont entertain it. That is like saying to the SEC "You went to take my Biology exam up early so i guessed the last few answers and they might be wrong, however I demand that it be moved from a B2 to B1". Your actual issue is a timing f*** up on the invigilator's part, not the standard of correction which ACER provide, so why would you want to see your script and appeal the result?

Publishing actual marking schemes to exams and publishing actual exams themselves does sound a reasonable argument however ACER want to try and keep this "you cant prepare for HPAT" motto going and as a result, they will never ever do that. Ever.

Dr Súin O'Flynn from UCC did a very detailed 'investigative' report on the HPAT in 2012 and I'm pretty sure it is online somewhere to read. This did include recommendations on the future of the exam and might be worth a look. One reason why I personally think it wont be abolished is because things would revert to the old system where you pretty much needed 600 points; and that system isn't very fair and the interview/statement option is way too open for bias.

dalta5billion

Gallagher1 wrote: »

Scores are calculated by computers in each section using incredibly complex mathematical/statistical algorithms, so if we were presented with it, we simply wouldn't understand but I presume it is done in a fair manner(Why wouldnt it?).

That's not an assumption most people are willing to make. Oversights and transparency exist for a reason.

Gallagher1 wrote: »

I can guarantee that you filled in the remaining dots as guesses or left them blank on the answer sheet for S3 , so there's no point arguing/appealing with ACER over a wrong answer you've provided regardless of time constraints because they simply wont entertain it. That is like saying to the SEC "You went to take my Biology exam up early so i guessed the last few answers and they might be wrong, however I demand that it be moved from a B2 to B1". Your actual issue is a timing f*** up on the invigilator's part, not the standard of correction which ACER provide, so why would you want to see your script and appeal the result?

So you'd be totally fine with being given substantially less time for your Leaving Cert with no recourse available to you.

"Don't worry, sure won't everything be grand" is completely unacceptable. The union would request clarity from the HEA and DofEd on what will happen to scores of people who were given 5 minutes less than others, as their scores will affect everyone else. Without the publication of the full marking scheme, we can have no confidence that the exam was fair to all candidates.

CGMed

I would suggest contacting/emailing (in writing) Minister Varadkar, Minister Jan O'Sullivan and your local TD's.
There is no fair resolution other than nullifying the entire test.
Full transparency must be provided - unlike last year where questions were supposedly discounted.
I would actually go as far as a solicitors letter seeking clarification of resolution.

mhf55

Gallagher1 wrote: »

Just curious, if everything went to plan, what would your desired outcome be of all this?

The exam was run perfectly this year imo apart from one invigilator making a stupid, stupid mistake? Only complaint I have is that they spent ages(forever) counting out the scripts beforehand and everyone seemed to be getting irritable, but when you take into account that every paper has to be accounted for, it seems to be a trivial complaint. This '5 minute' mistake happens in the LC too somewhere every year? Just because it happened in the HPAT (I know it is such a high stakes exam and therefore anger levels are through the roof..) doesn't mean a full report should be done into the exam, calling into question it's purpose and existence. I know you feel outraged (and rightly so!) but the invigilator is at fault;not ACER nor the concept of the HPAT exam itself. It was just horrifically cruel bad luck...

During my leaving cert chemistry exam last year some kids were playing in the river outside halfway through and made some noise. A few people complained and we all got our marks adjusted as a result. I saw the paper after and it had done very fairly. Even though that wasn't SECs fault they still compensated us for it!

spurious

mhf55 wrote: »

During my leaving cert chemistry exam last year some kids were playing in the river outside halfway through and made some noise. A few people complained and we all got our marks adjusted as a result. I saw the paper after and it had done very fairly. Even though that wasn't SECs fault they still compensated us for it!

As I said, candidates cannot be disadvantaged by a mistake in the paper or running of an exam. This is a given in examinations.

At the very least, HPAT would need to look at the results from the 'five minutes less' centre and see were there more than average that did not finish (regardless of marks scored). If there were, then there was a problem in that centre that disadvantaged candidates in it.

jacobwrench97

Hi, new boards user here just want to give my own opinion on things.

I think the HPAT paper was manageable, however it is impossible to predict grades at this stage. Regarding the mess-up at Trinity College (mess-ups seem typical with the HPAT since it's birth), the only reasonable solution I can really see ACER doing is to reduce all points for ALL students regarding the medical courses (I believe this happened when ******** predicted a staggering 10 HPAT questions).

Also, like everyone here, I would love to study Medicine (as if it isn't obvious by now). However, I am truly disappointed with my mock results. Im just wondering if anyone is willing to share, and if it is truly possible to gain approximately 100 points in the real thing. Perhaps any past students can help?

BBHenry

jacobwrench97 wrote: »

Hi, new boards user here just want to give my own opinion on things.

I think the HPAT paper was manageable, however it is impossible to predict grades at this stage. Regarding the mess-up at Trinity College (mess-ups seem typical with the HPAT since it's birth), the only reasonable solution I can really see ACER doing is to reduce all points for ALL students regarding the medical courses (I believe this happened when ******** predicted a staggering 10 HPAT questions).

Also, like everyone here, I would love to study Medicine (as if it isn't obvious by now). However, I am truly disappointed with my mock results. Im just wondering if anyone is willing to share, and if it is truly possible to gain approximately 100 points in the real thing. Perhaps any past students can help?

Yes it definitely is possible! Work on past exam qs and perfect your technique, leaving cert is literally about memorizing the course and regurgitating it in the way that they want you too- look at past marking schemes, know words that they insist on having. Maybe spend more time on the subjects you feel less confident in, make a list of everything you need to do and learn and space it out over the next three odd months you have until leaving cert. Ask your teachers for their advice. I always thought that, the worse your mocks were, the greater the improvement thay you can make Also it helped me to make out goal results in each subject and work toward that in every exam.

jacobwrench97

BBHenry wrote: »

Yes it definitely is possible! Work on past exam qs and perfect your technique, leaving cert is literally about memorizing the course and regurgitating it in the way that they want you too- look at past marking schemes, know words that they insist on having. Maybe spend more time on the subjects you feel less confident in, make a list of everything you need to do and learn and space it out over the next three odd months you have until leaving cert. Ask your teachers for their advice. I always thought that, the worse your mocks were, the greater the improvement thay you can make Also it helped me to make out goal results in each subject and work toward that in every exam.

Thanks so much! I was so worried, I got the highest in my year, but still, I have to be realistic. 460 points won't be doing me any favours.

EoghanIRL

Does anyone know if they made an official statement re last year ?

CGMed

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Does anyone know if they made an official statement re last year ?

No official statement made by ACER last year as far as I am aware - missed out narrowly last year and don't want same to happen again. Full disclosure this year is a must. All candidates must be satisfied that they are not disadvantaged by any resolution offered to the Trinity candidates. A resit for Trinity candidates, in my opinion, is not acceptable when scores of hPat and LC are aggregated. Register your concerns with Acer, Dept. Education, etc....

BBHenry

jacobwrench97 wrote: »

Thanks so much! I was so worried, I got the highest in my year, but still, I have to be realistic. 460 points won't be doing me any favours.

Don't worry at all, you will not be getting 460 in the actual lc (as long as you work!) :P Keep calm and focused, you'll fly it I found HPAT a lot more stressful than leaving cert last year. If you're ever lacking in motivation just remember its a lot easier to resit HPAT than it is to repeat the LC!

dalta5billion

Hi folks,

I've drafted a letter to Minister O'Sullivan here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sikAfaCulS0UrJUM8vSgM8mKpiSrByMxlF5vreKzzsM/edit?usp=sharing


Please give feedback on this. Points made/points that should not be made?

randylonghorn

"ACER refuse to publish any marking schemes, and how they arrive at a score for a given HPAT candidate is completely unquestionable."

Questionable perhaps? ... i.e. it's an unknown / mystery. Definitely not "unquestionable".

It's courteous anyway, which is always the way to do it.

Not sure it's a good idea to claim a "union" which is completely unknown ...

Actually, would ISSU be any use in raising concerns about this? ... I know little about it, but at least it is established / known.

dalta5billion

randylonghorn wrote: »

"ACER refuse to publish any marking schemes, and how they arrive at a score for a given HPAT candidate is completely unquestionable."

Questionable perhaps? ... i.e. it's an unknown / mystery. Definitely not "unquestionable".

It's courteous anyway, which is always the way to do it.

Not sure it's a good idea to claim a "union" which is completely unknown ...

Actually, would ISSU be any use in raising concerns about this? ... I know little about it, but at least it is established / known.

Agreed, have updated accordingly.

It's an awkward one because there's really no way to actually get a union of this (strange) nature going in an "official" manner. I thought having people print out the letter, sign it and send it off would be the best way to communicate with the relevant bodies.

ISSU are interesting. Seems to be more student-council oriented though. I think a HPAT union would be better placed to advocate on students behalf.

Nocofee

Hi guys the applications are down for med this year
What way are the points going to go?

Nocofee

Do ye think they will be similar to last year or lower?

dalta5billion

Nocofee wrote: »

Hi guys the applications are down for med this year
What way are the points going to go?

http://www2.cao.ie/app_stats/pdf/appstats01feb2015.pdf

Number of people with medicine as first pref. increased by 6.

CGMed

dalta5billion wrote: »

Hi folks,

I've drafted a letter to Minister O'Sullivan here:




Please give feedback on this. Points made/points that should not be made?

Good letter. What are the chances of it being dealt with? I emailed Minister O'Sullivan immediately after hPat and have had no response todate......

fitzyg

honestly I would hold off on emailing ministers, TDs etc until we get a reply from Acer. they said they would be getting the reports from the centres within 7-10 days of the exam, so they should have them all by tomorrow. we may as well wait and see what acer say first? although if i don't get a reply by the end of this week thats when im going to start emailing.

futuremedic19

dalta5billion wrote:

I've drafted a letter to Minister O'Sullivan here:

I think it's a great letter and you've done well to be impartial to both those who sat in the Trinity Centre and to all other candidates.

However the downside is that it won't make any difference to all the people who sat the HPAT and applied for med this year. If anything by you attacking the integrity of the HPAT they will just review the whole system and decide whether they need to make a few minor changes (unlikely) for forthcoming years.

Although I was in Blackrock, I feel soooooooooo sorry for all you who were in the Trinity centre

5 minutes for any Leaving cert exam might not be substantial however in the HPAT especially in Section 3 it's a massive amount of time.

The thing that makes it worse for you guys at Trinity is that I remember the last 2 pages were the 'next in the series' and some of them were really simple compared to the rest of the section. But dw everyone was guessing tonnes of questions anyway on S3.
My best advice would be for all of you to focus on your Leaving Certs and try and forget about the HPAT.

dalta5billion

futuremedic19 wrote: »

I think it's a great letter and you've done well to be impartial to both those who sat in the Trinity Centre and to all other candidates.

However the downside is that it won't make any difference to all the people who sat the HPAT and applied for med this year.

My best advice would be for all of you to focus on your Leaving Certs and try and forget about the HPAT.

I think you are forgetting that if Goldsmith Hall marks are adjusted, this impacts your likelihood of getting a place. This affects you.

Stop presuming that the black box that is ACER will just make everything okay. I'm not a Med applicant but I believe in transparency and fairness. I want full oversight of how this disaster will be dealt with. If that means kicking up as much stink as possible in the media, so be it.

dalta5billion

Facebook page created: please share the letter among your friends.


HPAT Students Union
https://www.facebook.com/pages/HPAT-Students-Union/1393699520945468?sk=timeline

futuremedic19

dalta5billion wrote:

I think you are forgetting that if Goldsmith Hall marks are adjusted, this impacts your likelihood of getting a place. This affects you.

dalta5billion wrote:

Stop presuming that the black box that is ACER will just make everything okay. I'm not a Med applicant but I believe in transparency and fairness. I want full oversight of how this disaster will be dealt with. If that means kicking up as much stink as possible in the media, so be it.

Yes I completely agree with you . We have a right to know how ACER will deal with this situation.

Either way whatever ACER decide to do there will definitely be some people who will unfortunately narrowly miss out on medicine out of something that wasn't their fault.

But yes, I definitely want to know how ACER deal with this situation, not only for myself but more so for the fairness of the hundreds of other candidates who sat the paper.