*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2015*

jacobwrench97

My grinds teacher just sent out a message basically stating ACER are in no way obliged to alter the grades of a specific group of people just because of an problem which could well have been avoided.
If the grades were to be altered, all grades for all candidates are likely to be altered also (although this may still be unfair to the Trinity College candidates).
So therefore he assumes that the required points will be lowered slightly, but there will also be choices taken from candidates with a wide range of points as long as they meet the requirements.

In other words, students who received even 520 may receive places in September.

Do I agree with his assumption? No, however at the moment it seems impossible to come up with a logical resolution. At the same time, a solution will have to be administered swiftly prior to the results day for the mature students.

jacobwrench97

Sorry the 520 points is EXCLUDING the HPAT points. So basically he believes that candidates may get places if they received well below 730 points (in total).

Cynicaldoubt

Is this a HPAT grinds teacher, or what sort of experience/basis is he making this assumption on?

As this continues I think it is more and more likely ACER will do nothing, they may apologise for an 'unfortunate accident', yet alter scores, I think not..

dalta5billion

For non-facebook users who want to join the union, here's the template letter to send to Jan O'Sullivan:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctxbdmrf4lo5j9u/HPATSU-lettertoMinister.pdf?raw=1

jacobwrench97

He's a HPAT teacher. To be honest, I don't accept his advice as although it is not possible to study for the HPAT, his classes were a complete waste of 395 euro. I would love to advice people not to attend this class, but unfortunately I can't mention any companies here

Nocofee

jacobwrench97 wrote: »

Sorry the 520 points is EXCLUDING the HPAT points. So basically he believes that candidates may get places if they received well below 730 points (in total).

It was 721 nuig last year so I don't really get his point

AtomicKoala

Nocofee wrote: »

It was 721 nuig last year so I don't really get his point

Yeah, I mean you can get in with 480, so if you got 241 in the HPAT and 480 in 2014 you could be studying in NUIG. Of course, that's a virtually impossible scenario.

fitzyg

guys im kind of freaking out, acer still havent replied even though they basically said they would after 7-10 days? its been 14 days since the exam. im really worried about all of this.

but they have to do something about what happened in trinity, theyre not just going to apologise. the only genuinely fair thing to do would be to have everyone resit a different exam. in the leaving when the examiner passed out the wrong english paper a few years ago, even though no one opened the paper and the mistake was realised immediately everyone in the country still had to resit a new paper.
honestly though its highly unlikely that a resit will happen. acer is a private company after all.

Nocofee

The secretiveness of acer is seriously annoying me.

LauraKc

fitzyg wrote: »

guys im kind of freaking out, acer still havent replied even though they basically said they would after 7-10 days? its been 14 days since the exam. im really worried about all of this.

but they have to do something about what happened in trinity, theyre not just going to apologise. the only genuinely fair thing to do would be to have everyone resit a different exam. in the leaving when the examiner passed out the wrong english paper a few years ago, even though no one opened the paper and the mistake was realised immediately everyone in the country still had to resit a new paper.
honestly though its highly unlikely that a resit will happen. acer is a private company after all.

You should email them. They are more likely to reply if you email again.

AngloIrishMan

fitzyg wrote: »

guys im kind of freaking out, acer still havent replied even though they basically said they would after 7-10 days? its been 14 days since the exam. im really worried about all of this.

but they have to do something about what happened in trinity, theyre not just going to apologise. the only genuinely fair thing to do would be to have everyone resit a different exam. in the leaving when the examiner passed out the wrong english paper a few years ago, even though no one opened the paper and the mistake was realised immediately everyone in the country still had to resit a new paper.
honestly though its highly unlikely that a resit will happen. acer is a private company after all.

I think that the costs involved in organising a re-sit would make it an impossibility. Anyway, I'm not sure about everyone else but I definitely do not want to go through the stress of sitting the HPAT again, especially since the L.C. is not too far away.

ronivek

fitzyg wrote: »

guys im kind of freaking out, acer still havent replied even though they basically said they would after 7-10 days? its been 14 days since the exam. im really worried about all of this.

but they have to do something about what happened in trinity, theyre not just going to apologise. the only genuinely fair thing to do would be to have everyone resit a different exam. in the leaving when the examiner passed out the wrong english paper a few years ago, even though no one opened the paper and the mistake was realised immediately everyone in the country still had to resit a new paper.
honestly though its highly unlikely that a resit will happen. acer is a private company after all.

Part of the tender for the medical school admission test stated that the test must be completed before March due to the proximity of the Leaving Certificate exams. I doubt very much there is any provision for a resit.

Personally speaking I found the HPAT the most stressful exam I've ever sat and as such that would be the last thing I would want.

dalta5billion

Quick Poll: what should be done for medicine admission in 2015?

http://strawpoll.me/3869278

ronivek

dalta5billion wrote: »

Quick Poll: what should be done for medicine admission in 2015?

http://strawpoll.me/3869278

You probably should have added a 'None of the Above' option; I don't really agree with any of those.

I would much rather see a statistical assessment of the results and an adjustment based on the difference between section 3 in TCD and section 3 in all the other locations.

dalta5billion

ronivek wrote: »

You probably should have added a 'None of the Above' option; I don't really agree with any of those.

I would much rather see a statistical assessment of the results and an adjustment based on the difference between section 3 in TCD and section 3 in all the other locations.

Knew I'd forgotten something...

I'm interested in also hearing from the people who selected "As normal: mark candidates who got 5 minutes less the same".

If you'd rather not post here, the email is hpatsu@gmail.com

EoghanIRL

ronivek wrote: »

Part of the tender for the medical school admission test stated that the test must be completed before March due to the proximity of the Leaving Certificate exams. I doubt very much there is any provision for a resit.

Personally speaking I found the HPAT the most stressful exam I've ever sat and as such that would be the last thing I would want.

Last years problem was worse and nothing was done about it.

I highly highly doubt anything will happen.

EoghanIRL

spurious wrote: »

As I said, candidates cannot be disadvantaged by a mistake in the paper or running of an exam. This is a given in examinations.

At the very least, HPAT would need to look at the results from the 'five minutes less' centre and see were there more than average that did not finish (regardless of marks scored). If there were, then there was a problem in that centre that disadvantaged candidates in it.

Sorry to drag up an old post but I just want to say I disagree with the part in bold.

When it comes to the hpat candidates can be disadvantaged.
Last year removing the 20 or so questions could put a lot of candidates at a disadvantage for reasons I have outlined in the past.
Briefly , for people who didn't attend the course , those questions could have been the questions the candidate got correct and spent the most time on, or the questions the candidate chose to answer(I.e a common strategy is not to answer all the questions ,. But to spend more time on day 80 percent of the questions).
Also people who did the course could have answered these questions faster and have more time to spend on questions that weren't removed.
Removing those questions was not an adequate solution to the problem.
This is putting candidates at a disadvantage. Should it be this way? No, but it is.

The hpat as it stands is not viable and destroys the integrity of entry to undergraduate medicine.

ronivek

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Last years problem was worse and nothing was done about it.

I highly highly doubt anything will happen.

Last year the offending questions were removed completely from the final results; 7 questions in total URL="http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/medical-school-exam-not-compromised-inquiry-finds-1.1845339"]http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/medical-school-exam-not-compromised-inquiry-finds-1.1845339[/URL.

EoghanIRL

ronivek wrote: »

Last year the offending questions were removed completely from the final results; 7 questions in total URL="http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/medical-school-exam-not-compromised-inquiry-finds-1.1845339"]http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/medical-school-exam-not-compromised-inquiry-finds-1.1845339[/URL.

I have expressed my opinion on how this solution wasn't adequate before on this forum.
Two years in a row isn't good enough , is it ?

emma35

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I have expressed my opinion on how this solution wasn't adequate before on this forum.
Two years in a row isn't good enough , is it ?

let it go man :P last year was dealt with, people who spend all their time on a small number of questions are always going to suffer. how can anyone really know how it affected them personally, when changes were made to everyone equally and likelihood is that for every person who did their test a certain way ( for example, I did that course, but I couldn't remember how those questions were explained, didn't like the look of them and skipped through them, this may or may not have actually helped me) Im sure their tactics couldn't have been that unique in such a large sample size.

EoghanIRL

emma35 wrote: »

let it go man :P last year was dealt with, people who spend all their time on a small number of questions are always going to suffer. how can anyone really know how it affected them personally, when changes were made to everyone equally and likelihood is that for every person who did their test a certain way ( for example, I did that course, but I couldn't remember how those questions were explained, didn't like the look of them and skipped through them, this may or may not have actually helped me) Im sure their tactics couldn't have been that unique in such a large sample size.

The fact that the exam was compromised in the first place isn't acceptable.

I'm not bitter about it , if that's how it's coming across.
hpat is a fee paying exam. I just think the errors two years in a row are ridiculous.
It's not the case for me but others here said how they narrowly missed out last year and decided to repeat again this year. Hpat is toying with people to be honest and it's not fair.
If you missed out again this year because of a mistake on their behalf then I for one wouldn't be very happy.
Just my opinion. I mean if the lc questions were somehow compromised what would happen?

dalta5billion

According to our (very unscientific) poll a majority here would gladly screw over the people who were given 5 minutes less.

That just really makes me *sad*.

fitzyg

finally got a reply! here it is:
"ACER has investigated your comments about the supervision of HPAT - Ireland 2015 at Goldsmith Hall, Trinity College on 28 February. As a result of this investigation it is clear that the candidates in Goldsmith Hall were given the correct test time. Candidates were told to stop the test at 1.06 and while that time was correct, the 10 minute warning signal was given at 12.58, two minutes later than it should have been. This will however not negatively affect candidates who sat HPAT - Ireland at Goldsmith Hall.

Candidates who did not complete the last few questions of Section 3 should not be concerned. When ACER develops HPAT - Ireland, a small number of unscored items are included in the test. These can appear at any position in the test and ensure that HPAT -Ireland is developed according to the highest standards of test development. For HPAT - Ireland 2015 the last three non-verbal reasoning items were included as unscored items. No HPAT - Ireland 2015 candidate will receive a score for the final three non-verbal reasoning items.

In summary all candidates who sat HPAT - Ireland in Goldsmith Hall had the correct test time. While the 10 minute warning time was given two minutes late, there will not be a negative impact for Goldsmith Hall candidates.


Regards
The HPAT – Ireland Team
ACER"


but they're wrong, the exam ended at 1:03...

spurious

fitzyg wrote: »

Candidates who did not complete the last few questions of Section 3 should not be concerned. When ACER develops HPAT - Ireland, a small number of unscored items are included in the test. These can appear at any position in the test and ensure that HPAT -Ireland is developed according to the highest standards of test development. For HPAT - Ireland 2015 the last three non-verbal reasoning items were included as unscored items. No HPAT - Ireland 2015 candidate will receive a score for the final three non-verbal reasoning items.

That's a bit convenient. The three qs they were not going to count happen to be the last three on the paper, which as most people work from the front and go through the booklet, would be the last qs people did/were planning to do?

So, in an exam where people say they were not given enough time they have just taken the last 3 qs out of the game (while stating that there was no shortfall in time)? How handy.

ronivek

spurious wrote: »

That's a bit convenient. The three qs they were not going to count happen to be the last three on the paper, which as most people work from the front and go through the booklet, would be the last qs people did/were planning to do?

So, in an exam where people say they were not given enough time they have just taken the last 3 qs out of the game (while stating that there was no shortfall in time)? How handy.

I didn't answer the questions in order; I'm not sure how many people do, especially in Section 3.

For those who aren't familiar with Section 3 it has three different types of question; and usually has ten of each type. Personally speaking 'Pick-the-Middle' are the most difficult, so I always complete the other two types first to try and maximise my score.

In this case the 'Pick-the-Middle' were the second batch of ten questions and thus I spent time on the final 3 questions rather than those I had skipped. So even though I wasn't even in Goldsmith Hall; arguably I've been just as inconvenienced if not more so than some of those who were there.

And in fact anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall and took my approach to Section 3 would be even more significantly impacted since they would have had even less time to go back to the section they had skipped and also would have had 10% of their attempted questions stricken from their total marks.

How many other people don't/didn't answer the HPAT questions in order?

Murphy3

Were the last three missing segment? Can't remember! At least they replied and to be honest I think it was the fairest thing to do.

sleepyheadh

Sorry guys, late to the party here, but is the big uproar related to the exam in goldsmith, ending 3 minutes early?

futuremedic19

ronivek wrote:

And in fact anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall and took my approach to Section 3 would be even more significantly impacted since they would have had even less time to go back to the section they had skipped and also would have had 10% of their attempted questions stricken from their total marks.

ronivek wrote:

In this case the 'Pick-the-Middle' were the second batch of ten questions and thus I spent time on the final 3 questions rather than those I had skipped. So even though I wasn't even in Goldsmith Hall; arguably I've been just as inconvenienced if not more so than some of those who were there.

ronivek wrote:

How many other people don't/didn't answer the HPAT questions in order?

I agree. I skipped some of the pick the middle ones but I found the missing segment ones just as difficult so in the HPAT I skipped them and decided to focus more on the last few questions as they were the next in the series ones which are relatively easier.
So looks like we've both wasted precious time now that your saying the last 3 didn't count

futuremedic19

ronivek wrote:

And in fact anyone who was in Goldsmith Hall and took my approach to Section 3 would be even more significantly impacted since they would have had even less time to go back to the section they had skipped and also would have had 10% of their attempted questions stricken from their total marks.

ronivek wrote:

In this case the 'Pick-the-Middle' were the second batch of ten questions and thus I spent time on the final 3 questions rather than those I had skipped. So even though I wasn't even in Goldsmith Hall; arguably I've been just as inconvenienced if not more so than some of those who were there.

ronivek wrote:

How many other people don't/didn't answer the HPAT questions in order?

I agree. I skipped some of the pick the middle ones but I found the missing segment ones just as difficult so in the HPAT I skipped them and decided to focus more on the last few questions as they were the next in the series ones which are relatively easier.
So looks like we've both wasted precious time now that your saying the last 3 didn't count

emma35

spurious wrote: »

That's a bit convenient. The three qs they were not going to count happen to be the last three on the paper, which as most people work from the front and go through the booklet, would be the last qs people did/were planning to do?

So, in an exam where people say they were not given enough time they have just taken the last 3 qs out of the game (while stating that there was no shortfall in time)? How handy.

have to agree with you there