Advocates of limited immigration accused of being racist.

guyjohn

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's because they're not actually evidence pertaining to the scale or seriousness of any of the issues you raise. All of those can be political reactions to evidence-free concerns, or writeups by journalists who know what sells papers or attracts viewers. You've also offered suppositions such as "I doubt they apply for PPS numbers for something to do", which mean nothing because they're just based on your opinion, which is what you're being asked to back up with facts.

You need some hard data that takes your case beyond the anecdotal. So far you have offered none.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I do not see any hard evidence to the contrary only comments of nonsense,rubbish or I imagine it all.

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

The PPS numbers give an indication of those living here . You seem to have gone on some rant about SW.

And they have every right under the treaty to come and live and work here. PPS numbers are not a good indication of numbers living here as there is no record of when a person leaves. Also the only ranting about SW or anything else is a charge left at your feet.

In relation to ratings about SW

"What smells ?? The gov is worried about the pension time bomb .I saw a draft only .
Pay me I will get evidence I don't work for nothing."

"The article below exposes language schools for fraud .

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/...-30190044.html

Not mentioned yet are sham marriages see link below

http://www.thejournal.ie/sham-marria...07129-Jul2013/

This article exposes welfare fraud among EU citizens.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airport-and...08162-Apr2012/"

"The link to the channel 5 program.

http://www.channel5.com/shows/gypsie...benefits-proud

HR test link in the UK
.
http://www.turn2us.org.uk/informatio....aspx#whatbens"


All posts by you.

guyjohn

Nodin wrote: »

Irrelevant to here


And your point?

I was just showing the program existed as I was accused of making it up.

Those responsible should look for a reason.

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

And they have every right under the treaty to come and live and work here. PPS numbers are not a good indication of numbers living here as there is no record of when a person leaves. Also the only ranting about SW or anything else is a charge left at your feet.

In relation to ratings about SW

"What smells ?? The gov is worried about the pension time bomb .I saw a draft only .
Pay me I will get evidence I don't work for nothing."

"The article below exposes language schools for fraud .

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/...-30190044.html

Not mentioned yet are sham marriages see link below

http://www.thejournal.ie/sham-marria...07129-Jul2013/

This article exposes welfare fraud among EU citizens.

http://www.thejournal.ie/airport-and...08162-Apr2012/"

so

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

so

You don't really get debate do you.

MrWard

alastair wrote: »

and to add...

... Is there unlimited immigration in play in Ireland? NO. Is there uncontrolled abuse of existing immigration legislation? NO.

You think that employers are not responsible for ensuring that their employees are legally allowed work in the state. Forgive me if I cant take your further assertions seriously.

We do have large-scale abuse of our immigration system. This is largely due to government ineptitude. Some 1/3 of all non EU students are here illegally as they have broken the terms of their visa stipulations.

Ireland is the only country in the EU were entering into a sham marriage is not illegal. We are known as the 'sham marriage capital of Europe'. Latvian authorities have been at our government to issue measures to counteract this since 2009. No legislation has been passed. The system is a mess. No uncontrolled abuse? Do me a favour.

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

You don't really get debate do you.

You don't have any first hand working experience in immigration .There fore anything you say is taken with a grain of salt no matter how clever you try to debate or debase.

djpbarry

guyjohn wrote: »

Unfortunately no detailed information exists as to why they apply for PPS numbers .

Because they have to.

Go have a look at the United Kingdom forum. Some of the most frequently posted queries from people moving to the UK relate to obtaining National Insurance numbers. Why? Because they know they'll need one for a wide variety of reasons, but most are concerned with getting one as soon as possible so they're not paying emergency tax for too long.

djpbarry

guyjohn wrote: »

You don't have any first hand working experience in immigration .

How do you know? And what does it matter?

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

You don't have any first hand working experience in immigration .There fore anything you say is taken with a grain of salt no matter how clever you try to debate or debase.

Lol I have represented people at ORAC, the RAT the High Court and the Supreme Court, in Ireland in immigration cases, I have also acted in the First Tier tribunal immigration division in the UK. I know more about the law and the reality of immigration than most posters on this forum.

So what's your first hand working experience in immigration.

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Lol I have represented people at ORAC, the RAT the High Court and the Supreme Court, in Ireland in immigration cases, I have also acted in the First Tier tribunal immigration division in the UK. I know more about the law and the reality of immigration than most posters on this forum.

So what's your first hand working experience in immigration.

Nonsense I do not believe you evidence. What the heck are you doing on this tattered thread surely a hot shot like you has better things to do.

alastair

MrWard wrote: »

Speaking of erroneous claims. You just claimed that it's up to the employee to ensure that they have permission to work in the state and that no responsibility lies with the employer to ensure their employees have valid work permission. You couldn't be more wrong.

Can you point me to the official information regarding employers obligations in this area? Given that non-EEA students don't have, or need to provide any work permit, to get a job, how exactly is the employer supposed to differentiate one casual employee from another who may work more than 20 hours? How do they know that they're not working a second job, and therefore exceeding a 20 hour limit? Can you point to an instance where an employer in Ireland has been fined or imprisoned for employing a student?

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

Nonsense I do not believe you evidence. What the heck are you doing on this tattered thread surely a hot shot like you has better things to do.

It's the Easter vacation, and even hotshots have down time. Typical when the debate is lost try and attack the other person. Have I upset your world view, did I make your views look silly in front of the big boys.

Again I ask your experience in immigration.

guyjohn

alastair wrote: »

Can you point me to the official information regarding employers obligations in this area? Given that non-EEA students don't have, or need to provide any work permit, to get a job, how exactly is the employer supposed to differentiate one casual employee from another who may work more than 20 hours? How do they know that they're not working a second job, and therefore exceeding a 20 hour limit? Can you point to an instance where an employer in Ireland has been fined or imprisoned for employing a student?

I think this shows its open to abuse.

Pro Hoc Vice

alastair wrote: »

Can you point me to the official information regarding employers obligations in this area? Given that non-EEA students don't have, or need to provide any work permit, to get a job, how exactly is the employer supposed to differentiate one casual employee from another who may work more than 20 hours? How do they know that they're not working a second job, and therefore exceeding a 20 hour limit? Can you point to an instance where an employer in Ireland has been fined or imprisoned for employing a student?

All non EEA persons have a permission entered into their passport a stamp 2 permission is what a student gets. It is a employers obligation to make sure an employee has the correct permissions.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0007/sec0002.html#sec2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0016/sec0001.html#sec1

While a student does not get a work permit they do get a permission to work restricted hours it is incumbent on the employer to confirm all is in order.

OldNotWIse

airsofter1234 wrote: »

I am an advocate of limiting the amount of inward migration from non-EU countries and I feel that the EU members should be able to limit the number of economic migrants entering the member state. I am not going to discuss why this is never going to happen because this is not what I want to discuss in this thread, but why some people find it right to call me a racist. Every time I debate the topic with people they say it is racist to limit immigration. What has happened to society, that everything is now so politically correct, and the definition of racism has blurred. Saying anything is now racist and frowned upon.
What arguments do any of you have when talking to these people, to try and explain to them how it is not racist and that they are wrong?

My non-EU, working and studying OH would love to meet you.

I think you are a racist.

I also think that anyone who wants to come to this sh1thole country needs their head examined.

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

It's the Easter vacation, and even hotshots have down time. Typical when the debate is lost try and attack the other person. Have I upset your world view, did I make your views look silly in front of the big boys.

Again I ask your experience in immigration.

My ex wife was a failed Asylum Seeker, sought leave to remain ,got a PPS number and worked illegally at a local factory for 3 years . I married her she got an Irish Passport . In that time I heard all the scams as immigrants work together and pool information.

The immigration system will always need reform to keep pace .In Ireland that pace is slow. You have an agenda to support immigrants and are well paid to do so.

You are trying to debase, what big boys ?

MrWard

guyjohn wrote: »

Nonsense I do not believe you evidence. What the heck are you doing on this tattered thread surely a hot shot like you has better things to do.

Why would the poster lie about something so innocuous ? He seems well versed in immigration law so I would take him or her at his word.

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

My ex wife was a failed Asylum Seeker, sought leave to remain ,got a PPS number and worked illegally at a local factory for 3 years . I married her she got an Irish Passport . In that time I heard all the scams as immigrants work together and pool information.

You are trying to debase, what big boys ?

I remember you, the guy who's issues with immigration have a lot todo with his ex's total riding of the system and him as well. So you had a partner, a failed asylum seeker illegal who you knew worked illegal, did you inform on the partner or the employer. Nope I doubt you did. So you are part of the very scams you give out about, god your a peach.

guyjohn

OldNotWIse wrote: »

My non-EU, working and studying OH would love to meet you.

I think you are a racist.

I also think that anyone who wants to come to this sh1thole country needs their head examined.

You have just said the magic word that proves the OP's first post Congratulations !!

alastair

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

All non EEA persons have a permission entered into their passport a stamp 2 permission is what a student gets. It is a employers obligation to make sure an employee has the correct permissions.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0007/sec0002.html#sec2

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0016/sec0001.html#sec1

While a student does not get a work permit they do get a permission to work restricted hours it is incumbent on the employer to confirm all is in order.

Where is this requirement for the employer laid out? Because I've not seen any legislation that requires employers to check permission of residence stamps. As far as I'm aware, the onus resides, in effect, with the employee to ensure they adhere to their visa limitations.

OldNotWIse

guyjohn wrote: »

You have just said the magic word that proves the OP's first post Congratulations !!

Oh no! (World implodes)

Er...I saw the first post, and I STILL think OP is a racist.(oh my god she did it again!) People realise that pre-empting that someone will call you a racist has no bearing on whether or not you are one???

MrWard

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I also think that anyone who wants to come to this sh1thole country needs their head examined.

Ireland is one of the best places to life on the planet and is far from a 'sh1thole'.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8483/hdi.png

Edit: I cant post images as a new user.

Pro Hoc Vice

alastair wrote: »

Where is this requirement for the employer laid out? Because I've not seen any legislation that requires employers to check permission of residence stamps. As far as I'm aware, the onus resides, in effect, with the employee to ensure they adhere to their visa limitations.

(2) A person shall not employ a non-national in the State except in accordance with an employment permit.

(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or

(b) if the offence is an offence consisting of a contravention of subsection (2), on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €250,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) consisting of a contravention of subsection (2) to show that he or she took all such steps as were reasonably open to him or her to ensure compliance with subsection (2).

I have acted for employers and employes in such situations, an employee does not have a statutory defence, but the employer does, in that "It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) consisting of a contravention of subsection (2) to show that he or she took all such steps as were reasonably open to him or her to ensure compliance with subsection (2)."

So if a employer employees a person with no permission he commits an offence. Of course a 20 hours a week permission would make it harder to get a conviction. But a student working full time is working illegally and the employer should have got a work permit.

OldNotWIse

MrWard wrote: »

Ireland is one of the best places to life on the planet and is far from a 'sh1thole'.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/8483/hdi.png

Edit: I cant post images as a new user.

Sh1thole is entirely subjective. I think its a sh1thole. You dont. Will that come between you and your sleep?

guyjohn

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Oh no! (World implodes)

Er...I saw the first post, and I STILL think OP is a racist.(oh my god she did it again!) People realise that pre-empting that someone will call you a racist has no bearing on whether or not you are one???

Go on call him a troll as well .

OldNotWIse

guyjohn wrote: »

Go on call him a troll as well .

Are you just hanging around in here chasing people off or something? Defender of the thread....drum roll

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

Go on call him a troll as well .

Nope that's very much you. My old flower. Are you going out with another non national now.

alastair

MrWard wrote: »

Ireland is the only country in the EU were entering into a sham marriage is not illegal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0818/134594-marriage/

guyjohn

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Are you just hanging around in here chasing people off or something? Defender of the thread....drum roll

No I like you.:)

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Nope that's very much you. My old flower. Are you going out with another non national now.

Do I detect a personal attack coming on.

Pro Hoc Vice

guyjohn wrote: »

Do I detect a personal attack coming on.

I'll leave that to you don't worry. I think you have shown up your views for exactly what they are.

alastair

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

(2) A person shall not employ a non-national in the State except in accordance with an employment permit.

(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or

(b) if the offence is an offence consisting of a contravention of subsection (2), on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €250,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) consisting of a contravention of subsection (2) to show that he or she took all such steps as were reasonably open to him or her to ensure compliance with subsection (2).

I have acted for employers and employes in such situations, an employee does not have a statutory defence, but the employer does, in that "It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) consisting of a contravention of subsection (2) to show that he or she took all such steps as were reasonably open to him or her to ensure compliance with subsection (2)."

So if a employer employees a person with no permission he commits an offence. Of course a 20 hours a week permission would make it harder to get a conviction. But a student working full time is working illegally and the employer should have got a work permit.

Those students don't have/need an employment permit however - they only have a permission of residence - so how could section 2 apply to the employer?

OldNotWIse

alastair wrote: »

Those students don't have/need an employment permit however - they only have a permission of residence - so how could section 2 apply to the employer?

Can students not work 20 hours per week?

MrWard

They were arrested for fraud. 'Official seals used for creating false marriage documents'.

It is not illegal in Ireland to arrange marriages for money

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/400-a-year-trafficked-for-sham-marriages-221367.html

alastair

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Can students not work 20 hours per week?

They can - and they don't need a work/employment permit to do so. They haven't got an employment permit for an employer to check.

MrWard

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sh1thole is entirely subjective. I think its a sh1thole. You dont. Will that come between you and your sleep?

Absolutely not. Ireland scores extremely highly in human development and living standards. Hence why people want to move here. If you think it's a sh1thole, that's fine. Life is short and you can freely work, study and live in another 27 EU countries visa free. The obvious solution would be to leave this 'sh1thole' for somewhere more to your taste.

Pro Hoc Vice

alastair wrote: »

Those students don't have/need an employment permit however - they only have a permission of residence - so how could section 2 apply to the employer?

The basic law is any non EEA must have a work permit. Its a criminal offence to employe without a work permit. So therefore the employer must confirm if the person has such a permit. A work permit permission is a stamp 1 which give a right to reside and to work if a work permit exists.

If the Non EEA national produces a stamp 1 and work permit then no issue, if the person produces a stamp 2 that will clearly say allowed to work 20 hours so then no need for permit, if the person produces a stamp 3 that only gives a permission to reside, if the person produces a stamp 4 that stamp allows the person to reside, work or set up a business, so again totally legal to employee. There are a few other stamps but no need to go into them.

Simply put if an employer does not check, and it turns out the person has no working permission he has committed an offence. If he does check and the person has a stamp 2 well then he is aware of the restrictions.

MrWard

alastair wrote: »

They can - and they don't need a work/employment permit to do so. They haven't got an employment permit for an employer to check.

They have a stamp 2 visa and a GNIB card that the employer needs to check.

Pro Hoc Vice

alastair wrote: »

They can - and they don't need a work/employment permit to do so. They haven't got an employment permit for an employer to check.

No but they have a stamp in their passport setting out the restrictions.

OldNotWIse

MrWard wrote: »

Absolutely not. Ireland scores extremely highly in human development and living standards. Hence why people want to move here. If you think it's a sh1thole, that's fine. Life is short and you can freely work, study and live in another 27 EU countries visa free. The obvious solution would be to leave this 'sh1thole' for somewhere more to your taste.

How disappointingly predictable of you.

MrWard

OldNotWIse wrote: »

How disappointingly predictable of you.

I think it's sound advice. You have 27 other options available to you you and can bring your non EU spouse with you under EU treaty rights. No point in staying in a country that you clearly dislike when you have such a wide range of choices available.

OldNotWIse

MrWard wrote: »

I think it's sound advice. You have 27 other options available to you you and can bring your non EU spouse with you under EU treaty rights. No point in staying in a country that you clearly dislike when you have such a wide range of choices available.

Except....I didn't ask for your advice. When I want it, I'll ask.

alastair

MrWard wrote: »

They were arrested for fraud. 'Official seals used for creating false marriage documents'.

That's not quite right - is it?

Official seals used for creating false marriage documents and evidence indicating that marriages were being carried out for financial gain have also been uncovered in the investigation.

MrWard wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/400-a-year-trafficked-for-sham-marriages-221367.html

So the guards were indeed stopping illegal marriages until 2011, and can still seemingly declare such marriages illegal after the fact, but new legislation to return the power to declare such marriages illegal ahead of time is being drafted.

guyjohn

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I'll leave that to you don't worry. I think you have shown up your views for exactly what they are.

What are those views ?

alastair

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

No but they have a stamp in their passport setting out the restrictions.

Which isn't an employment permit. So what has that got to do with the section you posted?

MrWard

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Except....I didn't ask for your advice. When I want it, I'll ask.

You realise that you are on a public message board, right?

MrWard

alastair wrote: »

Which isn't an employment permit. So what has that got to do with the section you posted?

It's proof that the non EU student can work 20 hours during term and 40 during school holidays. No more, no less.

Pro Hoc Vice

alastair wrote: »

Which isn't an employment permit. So what has that got to do with the section you posted?

It's an offence to employee a non EEA with out a permit. That's the basic law, if shown an employment permit or some other permission the employer does not commit an offence. If an employer knows that a person is non EEA then they must say can I see your permit. To which the employee can say here it is or I in fact have another permission and here it is. If the person never shows his stamp 2 or stamp 4 the employer does not commit a crime, but if the person does not have a permission them the employer has committed a crime, the only way to make sure he does not is to check the permission and make sure it remains up todate.

MrWard

alastair wrote: »

So the guards were indeed stopping illegal marriages until 2011, and can still seemingly declare such marriages illegal after the fact, but new legislation to return the power to declare such marriages illegal ahead of time is being drafted.

It has never been illegal to enter into a marriage for money. Is there a follow up article? What were the lads actually charged with?