Cancelling my Wedding Band - HELP!

Engine No.9

slimjimmc wrote: »

If you hire an oil truck to deliver 1000 litres of heating oil to your home that is a consumer contract for delivery, yes?
If that same truck then delivers another 1000 litres of heating oil to each of the 3 different commercial premises down the road, those are business contracts for delivery, yes?

Does the fact that the same truck serves 2 different markets make your contract any less a consumer one? No, because because its still an ordinary part of the service, it doesn't have to be the larger part.

Your post doesn't appear to support either argument but I'm assumiung you're on the bands side. With that in mind it should be pointed out that you can ring an oil delivery company at any point (even up to the minute before the truck arrives) and cancel the delivery but do you expect them to chase you for compensation??? I doubt it.

BenEadir

pajopearl wrote: »

Your post doesn't appear to support either argument but I'm assumiung you're on the bands side. With that in mind it should be pointed out that you can ring an oil delivery company at any point (even up to the minute before the truck arrives) and cancel the delivery but do you expect them to chase you for compensation??? I doubt it.

The oil delivery isn't a relevant or comparable example. Oil is a commodity which is sold all day every day. If you cancel your delivery the oil company can sell that sane 1000 litres to the next poison that calls quite possibly the same day. Therefore the oil company can't demonstrate a financial loss. In theory they could claim the marginal profit they lost but that's a separate argument. The band on the other hand can't easily find a replacement gig for the night in question. If they do whatever they earn would have to be set off against their claim against the OP.

slimjimmc

BenThere wrote: »

The oil delivery isn't a relevant or comparable example.

Whooosh!!!
You said that bands

are less frequently hired for private functions like weddings thus the "normal" engagement of a band is commercial not consumer but I'm open to correction if anyone has actual precedent in this area.

when you were questioning if this was a consumer issue at all.

I gave you an example of a service where it is normal to cater for both consumer and commercial contracts, just like bands.

BenEadir

slimjimmc wrote: »

Whooosh!!!
You said that bands when you were questioning if this was a consumer issue at all.

I gave you and example of a service where is normal to cater for both consumer and commercial contracts, just like bands.

I never said hiring the band can't be a consumer contract governed by the sale of goods and supply of services act. I personally don't think it is but even if it is my point about the oil company remains valid. The oil company can't demonstrate a loss, that's the only reason oil companies don't have an issue with cancellations. The band on the other hand could have s total loss (less the deposit) which they can demonstrate and seek compensation for regardless of whether the contract was commercial or consumer. Just because you're deemed to be a consumer it doesn't give you the right to break a contract without consequences.

slimjimmc

BenThere wrote: »

I never said hiring the band can't be a consumer contract governed by the sale of goods and supply of services act. I personally don't think it is but even if it is my point about the oil company remains valid. The oil company can't demonstrate a loss, that's the only reason oil companies don't have an issue with cancellations. The band on the other hand could have s total loss (less the deposit) which they can demonstrate and seek compensation for regardless of whether the contract was commercial or consumer. Just because you're deemed to be a consumer it doesn't give you the right to break a contract without consequences.

While you didn't say it wasn't possible to be a consumer contract you certainly expressed doubts that it could be. I showed that it certainly could be.

As to the rest of your replies you seem to have somehow convinced yourself I was arguing loss or compensation when my post was clearly dealing with your consumer v commercial contract doubts only. I actually agree the band have been disadvantaged and should be compensated appropriately, regardless if you feel the the OP is a consumer or not.

BenEadir

slimjimmc wrote: »

While you didn't say it wasn't possible to be a consumer contract you certainly expressed doubts that it could be. I showed that it certainly could be.

100% correct there slim. I do have doubts it's a consumer contract and your example hasn't changed my mind. By your own admission you state the oil example showed "it certainly could be". I never denied it could be, I just don't think it is and your example hasn't changed my perspective on that although I'm open to being convinced.

That clear enough for you?

blindside88

The band would find it very hard to pursue you as it's very much "he said she said" but I do find what you did wrong. Just wondering how the OP would react of the band contacted you 6 weeks/ 2 weeks before the wedding and said "we'vedecided not to play at your wedding"?

Also why didn't you stick with the original band if you were happy with them (which you obviously were as you wouldn't have cancelled if the deposit was larger)?

BenEadir

blindside88 wrote: »

Also why didn't you stick with the original band if you were happy with them (which you obviously were as you wouldn't have cancelled if the deposit was larger)?

It seems to be a combination of stupidity, naivety, greed, bride/groomzilla and downright poor judgement from what I can tell.

The_Conductor

Gileadi wrote: »

I wonder if this wedding band are declaring these earnings to revenue. From my experience I would doubt it, for this reason alone I doubt they would pursue the OP.

Artists exemption? :pac:

Gileadi wrote: »

My two cents is that they can keep the deposit but wouldn't give a cent more, these things happen in business and without defined terms and conditions they will happen again.

What happens in formal business may be a lot better defined on paper. Most musicians are not business people. They play because they love their music. We've argued 'the deposit should have been higher' to death- along with- 'the deposit was establishing a contract'.

One way or the other- if the OP doesn't come to an arrangement with the first band, whatever it may be- this hiccup will cast a cloud over their wedding day- and will be up there with the things they remember whenever anyone mentions their wedding day. Life is short, damn short- this is a cloud that you can pay to go away- its not a nice cloud, but surely it would be preferable to not have this issue hanging around like a bad smell.

Someone said that €2000 is a lot of money for a band, when realistically it isn't. Not when you factor in how many band members there could be, if the bride or groom request a song or playlist, which happens a lot, meaning they have spend countless hours rehearsing to make sure its just right, the fee for their transportation, equipment maintenance, and many other factors. So its not €2000 for 2 hours, its a lot more manhours on top of that.

The op was morally wrong to cancel their booking so soon before the wedding- any ones the band turned down would have gotten other bands by now meaning they are out of pocket. I'd be equally as mad as they are. Anyone would be.

However their vaguely threatening emails are the wrong way for them to go about it. So both are in the wrong, with the op being more-so.

Pay them something, they have wasted a lot of time and effort on this wedding.

BenEadir

The_Conductor wrote: »

Artists exemption? :pac:



What happens in formal business may be a lot better defined on paper. Most musicians are not business people. They play because they love their music. We've argued 'the deposit should have been higher' to death- along with- 'the deposit was establishing a contract'.

One way or the other- if the OP doesn't come to an arrangement with the first band, whatever it may be- this hiccup will cast a cloud over their wedding day- and will be up there with the things they remember whenever anyone mentions their wedding day. Life is short, damn short- this is a cloud that you can pay to go away- its not a nice cloud, but surely it would be preferable to not have this issue hanging around like a bad smell.

+1 very well put Conductor.

Man up OP and do the decent/right thing.

I'm bored with this thread now.

I hope you have a great wedding and a great married life, genuinely but what goes around comes around. Try to treat the band the way you'd like to be treated by them if the shoe was on the other foot.

muffler

BenThere wrote: »

Man up OP and do the decent/right thing................. I hope you have a great wedding and a great married life, genuinely but what goes around comes around. Try to treat the band the way you'd like to be treated by them if the shoe was on the other foot.

That sums it up nicely for me also.

It would be nice to see the OP post back and say how they got on with contacting the band the other evening.

Evil_Bilbo

BenThere

if you had read my previous posts you would see that I've "done the decent thing" and emailed the band and offered compensation (3pm last friday). As a previous poster said I dont want this black cloud hanging over everything - just want to draw a line under it and move on. I dont plan on getting married more than once. I've admitted countless times I was in the wrong for not giving sufficient notice in cancelling these guys - I've also offered compensation for loss of earnings? What more do you want? Do you want me to pay YOU to get off my back too?

Telling me to "man up" or saying that I'm acting like a spoilt child / bridezilla / naive / whatever is serving no purpose. I've admitted my mistake and didn't come on here to be insulted. If you genuinely believe "what goes around comes around" then perhaps you will behave in a more civil manner to other people in the future.

The guy from the band said he'd discuss my offer with his bandmates and let me know - no word back yet. Hopefully this wont drag out for too much longer.

maximoose

If they refuse your offer, don't make another.

BenEadir

Evil_Bilbo wrote: »

I've admitted countless times I was in the wrong for not giving sufficient notice in cancelling these guys

At the time you entered into your verbal contract with the band did you agree each party had the right to cancel? No, so there is no such thing as "sufficient" notice. You don't have the right to issue any notice to them without incurring a potential liability. If you had changed your mind sooner it would have given them an opportunity to source an alternative gig for the night of your wedding but you haven't given them enough time to do that. That doesn't forgive them from not responding to your emails and engaging with you etc, that was unprofessional of them.

Evil_Bilbo wrote: »

I've also offered compensation for loss of earnings? ..... The guy from the band said he'd discuss my offer with his bandmates and let me know - no word back yet. Hopefully this wont drag out for too much longer.

I outlined a constructive mechanism for settling this issue in post # 131 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89349315&postcount=131 where I said "If I was in your shoes I'd offer to pay them 50% of the balance you owe them. I'd write them a letter apologizing for the way I'd behaved and attach a cheque for 50% of the balance "in full and final settlement". Make sure to write that on the letter and make sure to also write it on the reverse of the cheque. What that means is that if they go ahead and cash the cheque they will have accepted your offer to settle the debt you owe them and that should (hopefully) be the end of it. If they try and come after you for the balance you can get the cheque back from the bank and use it as evidence that they accepted the reduced payment in full settlement of your contract with them. It's highly unlikely to come to that but it's better to be safe than sorry.

I'd also send the letter registered post so there is a record of them receiving it and I'd scan both the letter and cheque so you have records of them if you ever need them.

Hope that helps."

If you'd taken that advice you'd have been in a strong position to quickly draw a line under this in a fair way to the band. By simply communicating an offer to settle the issue with them you have made two critical mistakes:-

1. Unless your offer was made on a "without prejudice" basis (i.e. you said that to them at the time you made the offer or you wrote those exact words a the top of the email/letter, you have admitted your breach of contract and liability. That was a commercial mistake and not something you'd necessarily be aware of but hopefully is something you can take away from this for future reference if you ever find yourself in a similar situation again -I somehow dobt that!!

2. The way you communicated the offer leaves you open to a counter offer. The band are going to think "if he's offered €x it's only an opening offer, let's see if we can improve on that". By issuing a cheque with a covering note as I suggested (I forgot to say the letter should have the words "without prejudice" written at the top - my bad!!) whereby cashing the cheque was contingent on them accepting the payment in "full and final" settlement not only would you have avoided admitting liability but you would have put them in a situation where they can either cash the cheque and move on or risk trying to get a higher figure and maybe end up with nothing. Can in hand is a very powerful negotiating tool. If you'd offered a genuinely fair amount I guarantee you they'd have taken it and you'd never hear form them again. Unfortunately, by simply offering €x the process is likely to be dragged out as you too and fro over what's fair etc etc. It's not too late to issue them a cheque along the lines I mentioned.

Apologies if I hurt your feelings with my comments. Whilst what you did was wrong and stupid you have at least held your hands up and admitted same which is commendable. My comments weren't designed to upset you, I was just being candid.

My advice to you at this point is to be assertive. If the band come back and accept your offer send them a cheque and covering letter making clear that by lodging the cheque they are accepting your payment "in full and final settlement" of all outstanding issues between you. If they don't accept your offer and want a figure you are not prepared to pay or feel they want more than is fair you can still send them a cheque (with covering letter etc) stating that this is your best and final offer and if they choose to accept this offer it is on the basis that it is a full and final settlement etc and see what they do. I guarantee you they cash the cheque and you never hear from them again.

Whilst you are 100% to blame for the situation in the first place the band don't strike me as the most organised/professional outfit under the sun given the fact they only secured a €50 deposit from you, didn't get you to sign a contract and clearly didn't know how to respond to you when you cancelled the contract. They might talk about going to court etc but providing you offer them a fair amount in full and final settlement I'm extremely confident they'll take the cash and move on. They too need to learn lessons from this episode and they can count the difference between what they would have been paid and what you settle with them for as the cost of learning how to avoid this situation in future.

Am I forgiven?

Evil_Bilbo

Yes, yes - you are forgiven - and thank you for the advice. Good advice about writing that on the cheque etc. I was sure in my email to note that my offer in no way was an admission of a breach of contract, but that I felt bad for the way I handled things, and this was a gesture to make up for their loss of earnings.

You can bet your bottom dollar I'll never end up in a situation like this again - its a major clusterfeck.

Will keep ye posted anyway - peace!

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

SterlingArcher

No offense to all that jumped on The bandwagon ,but from the original post op said he tried to to cancel over a month ago could get no communication, till he "tracked" them down on facebook. If he couldn't even get in contact with them who's to say they were going to turn up??? Wouldn't be surprised if they're that unorganized they forgot.seen the fb cancellation and thought let's chance our arm.

What if he was not cancelling but trying to confirm they were still turning up?

Personally if it was weeks before my wedding and couldn't get in touch with the band I'd drop em like its hot. I'd have canceled them on that basis alone and not risked having no band after not hearing from them. Forget having to track them down.

It's his wedding day ,I think he can be forgiven for wanting to have this band he befriended at his wedding than a bunch of strangers. If you can't be a bit selfish on your wedding day when the hell can you. It costs enough.

BizzyC

It may have been a poor thing to do, but what's done is done.

I think you've been fair in offering some comp, don't go any further.

This band sound like a crowd a amateurs.
Tiny deposit - for a €2k bill I'd have expected a €500 deposit
No contract - you also should have insisted on that, neither side as any recourse
Poor communications

If they don't accept your offer, tell them to keep the deposit and cut all comms.
You gave 6 weeks notice of the cancellation, they failed to respond.

It's an expensive lesson to learn, but next time they'll handle themselves more professionally.

BenEadir

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very easy for people who don't know what they're talking about to get others into even more trouble than they are already in by giving them poor advice

BenEadir

SterlingArcher wrote: »

It's his wedding day ,I think he can be forgiven for wanting to have this band he befriended at his wedding than a bunch of strangers. If you can't be a bit selfish on your wedding day when the hell can you. It costs enough.

And it will cost even more if he doesn't come to an amicable agreement with the band he originally booked.

BenEadir

BizzyC wrote: »

No contract

Not true. There is a verbal contract confirmed by the payment of a deposit. A verbal contract is just as valid as a written contract. Not as easy for either party to demonstrate if required but absolutely as binding as a written contract. Even if you know nothing about the law just look at Judge Judy some day. She settles exactly these sort of disputes. He said, she said, I did, he didn't etc etc. Our District Courts handle these sort of minor civil cases (up to a value of €6,350) so that's where the band can go if they really want to and it won't cost them very much to do so. I personally don't think they will but if I was in their shoes I'd have invested €75 with my solicitor to send the OP an open letter making very clear that should the OP cancel the contract we will seek the balance of the agreed fee through all means possible including the District Court if necessary and in addition we shall seek our costs in relation to the matter.

I guarantee you the OP wouldn't want the shadow of a court case hanging over his wedding and he'd quickly agree to let us fulfill the contract we entered into.

The fact the band didn't do this just confirms they are amateurs but it doesn't prevent someone else advising/encouraging them to take the aforementioned action next week or next month.

An amicable settlement in advance of the wedding is the only way the OP can be certain on his wedding day that this isn't going to come back and bite him on the ass. The OP is making an effort to sort it out but because he doesn't know what he's doing (not his fault) and the band seem equally inept at dealing with this side of their business (absolutely is their fault) it is my belief this will just drag on and on unless the OP takes the initiative and makes a decent offer to settle along the lines I gave him. That will make the band put up or shut up and based on their behaviour to date I believe they'll cash the cheque and that wll be the end of it.

From the OP's comments there is clearly a value to him to get this sorted ASAP and not have it hanging over his head on the day of his wedding. All other advice telling him to play hardball etc ignores the comfort he is seeking, ignores the options open to the band to seek redress and treats the band, despite their commercial naivety, in a less than fair way.

Ben

BenEadir

Was bored - not bored any more

SterlingArcher

BenThere wrote: »

And it will cost even more if he doesn't come to an amicable agreement with the band he originally booked.

Yeah he will lose the "small"deposit. You implying this unorganized band is going to small claims court. Ish don't think so, they can't even answer an email.

I'd show them the same professional courtesy they showed with their lack of any communication other than to demand compensation after being "tracked" down.

BenEadir

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Yeah he will lose the "small"deposit. You implying this unorganized band is going to small claims court. Ish don't think so, they can't even answer an email.

I'd show them the same professional courtesy they showed with their lack of any communication other than to demand compensation after being "tracked" down.

Talk is always cheap SterlingArcher but I've an idea which will test the substance of your advice. Why don't you buy the OP's potential liability for €50 that should the band successfully sue him you'll pick up the tab? According to your assertion there is no risk they'll sue so you'd be €50 up with no downside. Go on, offer it to him if you believe what you are saying

Personally I don't think the band are very organised commercially but it only takes one conversation with their solicitor or a friend who does know a bit about business and contracts and they might well fire off a solicitors letter and/or initiate a case months after the wedding.

Thankfully, with his potential liability sold to you for €50 the OP can have a worry free wedding day :P

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

BenEadir

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Moral high grounds don't win contract disputes my friend. The contract was a simple verbal contract. That isn't even disputed by the OP. If cancellation was a "not unlikely event" why didn't the OP agree some sort of cancellation clause when making the contract? all he had to say at the time, before handing over the €50 was "and I will have the right to cancel this contract at any time up to 6 weeks before the wedding without any liability to you over and above the deposit I have paid you which will be forfeited".

The problem is that upon hearing the OP wanted the right to cancel the agreement up to 6 weeks out from the wedding the band, if they had any sense, would have declined to agree to do the wedding or requested a large deposit e.g. 50%.

No such discussion was had and no such cancellation clause exists. End of.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

SterlingArcher

Quite frankly I am giving the op an "opinion" which is all anyone can expect for on a public forum. It is no less valid than your fear mongering, because like I said they're only opinions.

Personally I'd arrange a meeting with the band and make a new verbal agreement that they can keep the deposit. But hey that is my opinion.

maximoose

BenThere wrote: »

No such discussion was had and no such cancellation clause exists. End of.

Your argument makes zero sense

OP can't cancel the booking without penalty as "no such discussion was had and no such cancellation clause exists"

but

Band can request full payment of the agreed fee upon cancellation even though "no such discussion was had and no such cancellation clause exists"

Logic ftw.