Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

MuffinsDa

Growler!!! wrote: »

There is a lot of talk of the aircraft climbing and descending erratically. There is a situation where this can occur and it has to do with aircraft stability. The erratic increase and decrease in altitude is called a phugoid. It may indicate no control input from the flight deck crew if they were incapacitated.

That's a good point. The question is though, would it happen over such a wide range of altitudes? And how did it eventually stabilise then? If something was causing it did it go away by itself?

Dublin Red Devil

I believe the plane was hijacked by either the pilot or sombody else on board who knew exactly what they were doing. I think after the plane turned, they flew higher into the death zone in order to kill the passangers. Then they flew north west bound and probably landed it some where in the middle east. By now the plane itself has probably been modified and all indetification features and componants removed

Happyman42

Growler!!! wrote: »

There is a lot of talk of the aircraft climbing and descending erratically. There is a situation where this can occur and it has to do with aircraft stability. The erratic increase and decrease in altitude is called a phugoid. It may indicate no control input from the flight deck crew if they were incapacitated.

Cheers for the explanation.
Sorry, but my head is melted here today, where is the info about it climbing erratically coming from again?

lb1

From what I gather the sightings in the Maldives occurred soon after the last satellite pings were received. Perhaps it crashed or landed in that region?

Growler!!!

Happyman42 wrote: »

Cheers for the explanation.
Sorry, but my head is melted here today, where is the info about it climbing erratically coming from again?

Meant to be from military radar. But it was at the edge of the coverage and the climb/ descent is unconfirmed. I'll have a look for a link.

jasonb

A quick question in the 'Ask a Pilot' thread came back with the answer that ACARS would not have information in its broadcast data about a course change entered into the Flight Computer.

So I'm really not sure where the 'reports' that the course change was pre-programmed at least 12 mins before the Flight Office spoke (i.e. before when the ACARS last sent data) are coming from.

J.

Flippyfloppy

lb1 wrote: »

From what I gather the sightings in the Maldives occurred soon after the last satellite pings were received. Perhaps it crashed or landed in that region?

Those sightings have been discounted

Flippyfloppy

Are pilots aware of areas where military radars are active?

Growler!!!

MuffinsDa wrote: »

That's a good point. The question is though, would it happen over such a wide range of altitudes? And how did it eventually stabilise then? If something was causing it did it go away by itself?

Do we know if it stabilised?

Generally, the amplitude will reduce over time but I can't tell or indeed don't know what caused the initial upset.

wil

pclancy wrote: »

Right from now on I'm scaling back my intense viewing of this thread and will concentrate on this one where updates only will be posted.

The conflict between regulars and other posters has been disappointing, especially after Andy_g and myself have put so much of our own time into trying (and sadly failing) to keep the thread on track. In my view anyone on Boards can jump into any thread they like and begin a discussion about any subject, but some people here obviously don't follow that view. The fact that a huge amount of complete trollop has been posted and various people have taken issue with others has obviously infuriated that, but I'm at a loss of what else to do here.

Not the only one.:(
Anyway forum imitating life imitating....

sopretty wrote: »

Did anyone see the discussions with the two captains that was on Sky a few minutes ago?

Their opinions made sense to me.

I.e. The plane was being flown at a safe altitude, which meant there probably was no intention to die involved. They surmised that the plane flew south west and possibly landed on a small island or something. One guy mentioned that he'd be interested to know what cargo was aboard and whether it was valuable. They seemed to think that from what data we have, it looks like the plane was flying intelligently with a destination in mind.

They did of course emphasize that this was pure speculation on their parts.

Other than when in a stall/crash situation, when does a 777 NOT fly "intelligently" And after waypoints are entered, who knows who if anyone is subsequently in control.

pfurey101 wrote: »

How did you work that out?

As mentioned earlier by someone else, the only clear thing is that nothing is clear whatsover.

And we cant even be sure of that.

We can't/don't know where/when/if incompetence/ineptitude ends and secrecy/corruption/collusion begins. /

Gator wrote: »

Id agree with the fire as the most logical solution...however, other things are coming to light...

from some agency in the maldives

I've never seen a jet flying so low over our island before. We've seen seaplanes, but I'm sure that this was not one of those. I could even make out the doors on the plane clearly.

It's not just me either, several other residents have reported seeing the exact same thing. Some people got out of their houses to see what was causing the tremendous noise too.



Also another tangent about a billion dollars of diamonds being on board....not really feeling that one to be honest

He could make out the doors and all he could tell it wasn't a seaplane.
Dubious.

pfurey101 wrote: »

Oh for the days from when the news facilities only reported the news and didn't try to make it up or be part of it themselves.

Propaganda excluded!

Welcome to M'sia

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

In my opinion RIP shouldn't be used in still hypothetical outcomes. I still think there is a chance these passengers are being held hostage somewhere.

China seem to suspect that Malaysia of keeping secrets. No smoke without fire?
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2014-03/18/c_133195943.htm

and if there ever was one to know one....

vicwatson wrote: »

And your evidence for all that is where exactly?

There is little or enough evidence to fit almost any and every theory right now.

wil

reported on NST today.
Has this part been noted or accounted for in any theory. It seems rather relevant.

ACARS cannot be disabled
(anonymous 777 pilots)
The Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) cannot be totally disabled from the aircraft as it goes in standby mode much like a telephone on flight mode.
That is why, despite being turned off, satellites could still “ping” the ACARS on Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 after it went off-radar.
Pilots use ACARS on a normal day only to receive short messages and weather reports, or to send short massages.
They can even use a three-step selection process which can alert air traffic controllers of any emergency or hijacking, as long as there is battery life.

According to a commercial airline Boeing 777 pilot who requested anonymity, ACARS is a system that works on Very High Frequency (VHF) and Satellite Communication (SATCOMM).
“It is Mas procedure to switch ACARS, VHF, and High Frequency selection off but this is only for flights to China as the service provider for Mas does not cover China. Some if not all pilots switch them all off for a while and then later switch SATCOMM back on to force the system into SATCOMM mode.”

When asked what steps could have been taken in the case of a hijacking or emergency, the pilot said that in the cockpit, one VHF receiver is always in emergency frequency 121.5 for air defence and other aircraft to call.

lb1

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

I believe the plane was hijacked by either the pilot or sombody else on board who knew exactly what they were doing. I think after the plane turned, they flew higher into the death zone in order to kill the passangers. Then they flew north west bound and probably landed it some where in the middle east. By now the plane itself has probably been modified and all indetification features and componants removed

Indeed. It could have landed in any number of places, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan..
If this plane does turn up over some city carrying a dirty bomb or packed with a couple of tonnes of nerve agent, it will be a desperate failure by the intelligence community.

brandon_flowers

Superb insight into independent.ie level of story corroboration. This is a snapshot of their website frontpage.

sopretty

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Superb insight into independent.ie level of story corroboration. This is a snapshot of their website frontpage.

DOH!

sopretty

Question:

Has this scéal that the diverted path had been pre-programmed into flight prior to ATC last communication been completely debunked now at this stage? Would there be any way for people on the ground to know?

Feel like I'm being led on several wild goose chases!!

wil

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Superb insight into independent.ie level of story corroboration. This is a snapshot of their website frontpage.

This story is not only exposing the flaws in radar/aviation/SAR:(

also
"The data logs from three flight simulation programmes - Flight Simulator X, Flight Simulator 9 and XFlight10 were deleted on Feb 3.
NST

I'd say likely a routine or normal tidy up.

Grandpa Hassan

sopretty wrote: »

Question:

Has this scéal that the diverted path had been pre-programmed into flight prior to ATC last communication been completely debunked now at this stage? Would there be any way for people on the ground to know?

Feel like I'm being led on several wild goose chases!!

Me too. All the 'evidence' seems to be being debunked in one way or another.....and there is so much uncertainty about the exact nature of these 'pings' that I'm not sure there is any accuracy with those either

I thought initially that it was a hijack by the pilot or others, but I am increasingly starting to think that there was just a catastrophic failure and flight MH370 just flew into the sea

Happyman42

What does the pilot mean here:

In my personal opinion if the plane had crashed, the black box beacon would have sent a signal as the vibration of the G-force (force of gravity, when the crash occurred) would have triggered it,

Does he mean it would send a signal back to a base somewhere or just start transmitting from where it is lying?

It's from this article; http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-acars-cannot-be-disabled-1.521314?cache=wixtvnujghdrti

lb1

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Those sightings have been discounted

Yes by local police, hardly Scotland Yard!
Is there no central authority looking into this.

Growler!!!

Happyman42 wrote: »

What does the pilot mean here:



Does he mean it would send a signal back to a base somewhere or just start transmitting from where it is lying?

It's from this article; http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-acars-cannot-be-disabled-1.521314?cache=wixtvnujghdrti

He means the location beacon on the FDR or black box will activate after a certain G threshold is passed. Ie if it crashed.

Five Lamps

If this plane is parked on a runway somewhere, who is feeding and watering the passengers and crew?

There is an obsession with the flight simulator - I presume because the 9/11 attackers trained on them. They weren't pilots though. I can't see how a simulator would somehow significantly improve the knowledge the pilot already had through his own training.

wil

sopretty wrote: »

Question:

Has this scéal that the diverted path had been pre-programmed into flight prior to ATC last communication been completely debunked now at this stage? Would there be any way for people on the ground to know?

Feel like I'm being led on several wild goose chases!!

Not being smart, and at risk of appearing to go OT but it feels that this has become more of a soap than a real news story and people are being sucked in in a way few stories on the other side of the world rarely do. In the absence of proven hard facts, it is extremely unlikely this is going to be solved on a discussion forum, and even if someone does happen to state the actual events before this ever concludes, it will have been by accident, and lost in all the noise of speculation.

I am reverting to mostly updates and questions about stuff that I don't understand.

wil

lb1 wrote: »

Yes by local police, hardly Scotland Yard!
Is there no central authority looking into this.

Apparently the local FBI have been involved/advising from early on at the request of the authorities (as reported on CNN AFAIR)

/mostly

Zzippy

Five Lamps wrote: »

If this plane is parked on a runway somewhere, who is feeding and watering the passengers and crew?

There is an obsession with the flight simulator - I presume because the 9/11 attackers trained on them. They weren't pilots though. I can't see how a simulator would somehow significantly improve the knowledge the pilot already had through his own training.

Apparently sims can be used to practise landing at unfamiliar airports, hence the speculation - the pilot could have been using it to practise landing at a strip he'd never seen before

sopretty

wil wrote: »

Not being smart, and at risk of appearing to go OT but it feels that this has become more of a soap than a real news story and people are being sucked in in a way few stories on the other side of the world rarely do. In the absence of proven hard facts, it is extremely unlikely this is going to be solved on a discussion forum, and even if someone does happen to state the actual events before this ever concludes, it will have been by accident, and lost in all the noise of speculation.

I am reverting to mostly updates and questions about stuff that I don't understand.

Well this is it. I'm just trying to get my head around the technical detail so that I can better understand the media reports and try to figure out for myself what is plausible and what is pure and utter drivel. When you're coming from the base point of knowledge that I'm coming from though (i.e. none), it is proving to be a rather large learning curve! The information being drip fed from Malaysia, doesn't seem to add up to me. That's what has me asking so many questions and wrecking everyone's head!

sopretty

wil wrote: »

Apparently the local FBI have been involved/advising from

intellectual dosser

The worst part of the last couple of days is the slow realization that we may NEVER find out what happened. That is scary and would have significant consequences for air travel. I would think many passengers take comfort in the knowledge that technology is so advanced that investigators can piece back ever minute detail on incidents and accidents, the idea that a plane can vanish into thin air with so many unanswered questions would bring us back to pioneering times in the minds of many.

microsim

Five Lamps wrote: »

There is an obsession with the flight simulator - I presume because the 9/11 attackers trained on them.

LOL

MuffinsDa

Five Lamps wrote: »

I can't see how a simulator would somehow significantly improve the knowledge the pilot already had through his own training.

It won't improve his knowledge, but could it not help in planning for more unusual situations (i.e. landing on very short runways, planning and refining waypoints without leaving any trace on FMC, dry runs for the plan...

It in itself is insignificant and noone should suspect people (pilot or not) with simulators, but in this unresolved case any thing that can be related should be investigated and that's just one of the many ....

dees99

Growler!!! wrote: »

What do you mean the pilots were not rostered?


The satellite system in question is the Inmarsat communications system below is some info from Inmarsat themselves explaining how the aircraft was " pinged". There is no way someone could avoid it or pinpoint its location.

'Handshakes' help determine location
When an aircraft powers up, the airplane automatically sends a signal logging onto the communications network. Thereafter, the ground station sends "polling signals" to the satellite, which relays them to the aircraft. When the aircraft responds, it is known as a "handshake." The information relayed during the handshake is very limited, but it contains a unique identifying code to identify the aircraft.
The purpose of the hourly "handshakes" is to allow the satellite to know the approximate location of the aircraft so that it can efficiently relay any messages. For this, the satellite needs to know the angle of the aircraft from the satellite.
An aircraft directly under the satellite would be at a 90 degree angle to the satellite; an aircraft at the poles would be at 0 degrees.
In the case of Malaysia Airlines 370, authorities have said, the last message sent was at 40 degrees.

The pilots were not supposed to be working together that night. A different pilot rang in sick and the new younger pilot was on standby and was called up. So they couldn't have been a team.

When a satellite pings an aircraft it simply asks.. Are you there? The aircraft responds.. Yes. They cannot tell the location from that.