Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

lintdrummer

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I dunno, you tell me. Would they need to enter airport and go should same security measures that passengers do? I doubt it, they probably have passes to go straight to work on the ground. Not saying there are no security measures for people who work as baggage handlers or cleaners, I'm saying would be easy to infiltrate . If they are asking questions about the pilot...... why not the guy who was hanging around the landing gear before take off ?

Really? You honestly need to ask this question? You think there's a possibility that people who work in airports just saunter through to airside with no security checks?

Happyman42

relaxed wrote: »

Of course I don't think they booked into a hotel or are buying them a McDonalds - I think the plane is crashed.

I just find it absurd that people seriously think that somebody would fly the plane to an obscure airfield, set up a camp of some description and hold them for 15 days and counting, knowing that 1 million and 1 things need to keep going right every day, when they could probably just hijack a cargo plane a lot easier and just fly it straight to target.

The point about 'why' they would take passengers is that they are in the business of inspiring terror in the minds of every air traveller on the planet. That potential would be huge in the minds of these people. It would be a huge inspiration to achieve that, chaos and world wide attention on their aims.

Not saying that is what happened, I see the Chinese have also spotted possible wreckage. Hopefully this is coming to a close.

Mountainsandh

I just find it absurd that people seriously think that somebody would fly the plane to an obscure airfield, set up a camp of some description and hold them for 15 days and counting, knowing that 1 million and 1 things need to keep going right every day, when they could probably just hijack a cargo plane a lot easier and just fly it straight to target.

Well yes, but on the other hand, what a demonstration of might and cunningness if they did pull it off. I think a lot of terrorist organisations seem to aspire to that.

I don't think landing at a remote suitable airport would be a feat, avoiding radar areas or knowing exactly which areas/countries are not assiduous in keeping radar reports would be a demonstration of skills and preparation.

Herding 240 people in a hall/hangar and throwing them scraps for a fortnight is unlikely but possible, I agree, a lot of hassle, and there would have been plenty of casualties along the way. But look at what happens in troubled countries all over the world, unfortunately stories of entire villages herded in that manner happen.

In my opinion, if hostages were the intent, they might have targeted a more business oriented flight, no babies, children or tourists.

Anyway, I hope the Chinese have indeed found a piece of wreckage, and that this will be confirmed or recovered before the cyclone that is said to threaten the area, for the sake of the families.

mickdw

lintdrummer wrote: »

Really? You honestly need to ask this question? You think there's a possibility that people who work in airports just saunter through to airside with no security checks?

Certainly before 911 when I worked on construction site at airport, we walked airside / landside 10 times a day. We would walk around the security scanners instead of through them 95% of the time. We would be mixing with passengers in airside passenger routes and working in baggage Hall etc.
Also passes were given out to temporary workers on foot of a simple declaration that they did not have criminal convictions.
I'm sure it's a different world now.

lintdrummer

mickdw wrote: »

...before 911...

Everything changed post 9/11. Talking about pre 2001 is irrelevant, it was 13 years ago, security has been extremely tight since.

JONJO THE MISER

That new sattelite image was taken tuesday.

ted1

relaxed wrote: »

So they booked them into a hotel then, call it €50 a night, that's €170000 so far.

Where do you think they would be holding the passengers?

Taken off the plane and locked in a hanger? You really have a limited imagination

Nonoperational

I think the truth is that the people advocating some elaborate plan where there are indeed hostages are the ones with a very over active imagination.

wil

fits wrote: »

Well the Chinese are mixing up their lengths and widths to begin with...

Chinese usually reads from top to bottom and back to front, so maybe not them getting mixed up.

CNN thinks KL is in Indonesia

Also amused that Malaysia says pilot transcripts not being released, seeing as they were already so.

wil

lintdrummer wrote: »

Everything changed post 9/11. Talking about pre 2001 is irrelevant, it was 13 years ago, security has been extremely tight since.

Why do people keep saying that???
In the US, UK, UAE, NZ, Australia and many mostly western countries undoubtedly, but many countries would really not have seen themselves in any way likely targets of the same international terrorism.
Also corruption etc is endemic in many countries so it is a very broad assumption.
US does not have jurisdiction over everywhere, so same rules don't always apply, though this may be another world game changer to that view.

Five Lamps

relaxed wrote: »

I think your theory is ridiculous.

Do you seriously think there are 229 people sitting in a cramped plane for the last 15 days, imagine the amount of p1ss and sh1t in the plane?

Then the hijackers need to cover all the exits 24/7 so that's a minimum of 2 shifts 7 days a week. That's around 16 of them, all with guns sneaked onto the plane, but the authorities have screened all the passenger by now and found nobody with terrorist links.

Then theres the cost of feeding the passengers, suppose its €20 per person per day from the local takeaway for food and drink, that's a bill of €70000 for food so far.

Surely the Pizza delivery guy would cop it that there is something amiss?

Then there will be cost of refuelling the plane if its to be used as a bomb, that's another 200000 litres, at €1 per litre, so another €200000.

Intelligence agencies have moles in all terrorist groups, they would have got wind of this a long time back.

You need to find an extremely isolated airfield, where nobody will come near for more than 2 weeks, and it has to have a McDonalds beside it.

Your theory is off the wall. The plane is crashed somewhere.

While I would agree that this plan is in probability at the bottom of the ocean somewhere it is worth noting:

Hijackings have taken place before where crew and passengers were removed from the aircraft and dispersed to local safe houses.

Intelligence agencies may have moles but they had no idea about 9/11 and no forewarning that this event was to take place.

I would imagine that all remote airfields have been scanned at this point. Unless one was built for this purpose.

Mountainsandh

I'm looking up hostage taking around the world as a matter of interest. I'm passing over the Syrian examples because it is hard to rely on information on line in that respect, but there are numerous other accounts.

Usually hostages are spread out over several spots, and of course with casualties in the process, the numbers of people held is less.

I am just reading an account of how Somali pirates are capturing numerous ships, for hostages and the ships, they juggle with the value of each to try and get what they want. Apparently they are finding it harder to attack ships. Not suggesting for one minute that Somali pirates organized a plane hijacking, just showing how unfortunately, some groups do attempt bold and pretty elaborate actions, it's not unusual really.

http://dillapress.com/somali/heeso/35-wararka/1243-somali-pirates-still-hold-200-hostages.html

So these theories, imo, if less likely, are still possible, and not absurd at all really.

relaxed

ted1 wrote: »

Taken off the plane and locked in a hanger? You really have a limited imagination

Yes they could do that, but they still need to feed, water and guard them, a costly operation to run!

Mountainsandh

Here's another example http://guardianlv.com/2013/07/200-kurds-held-hostage-by-al-qaeda/
Syrian admittedly so hard to know details/veracity.

seal57

The US and a few other countries know where the plane is, most likely one of the Stans in the mountain areas. Every country has said more or less the same thing publicly, that being, we didn't see it on our radar or its not in our country that we know of. The Malaysian airport is not exactly tightened up security wise like other western major airports. People need to understand the time lines of the flight, what is known, when things occurred, how fast they occurred after takeoff. People also need to understand what is not known, what is not being talked about, discussed, argued, all over the world wide media outlets. We all know a plane disappeared and appearances are everything. First they searched where it was last reported, then a few hundred miles south a couple of days later, now they are searching almost 6000 miles from the Stans. The world press corp are all 6000 miles away from where the plane possibly is.
This was a well planned event, years in the making. Chatter has been around for years about just such an event happening. First thing to pull it off, would be to know the radar footprints of various countries, when they are on, off, where there is no coverage. Second pick an airport with lax security and that operational details could be learned over years. Then Target a nighttime flight and pick a plane with some of the most advanced avionics in the world, a plane that can handle low altitude flight, a plane that has a large fuel capacity, a fast plane, a sturdy plane.
One scenario on how it was taken. A few people involved, as small as 2 and as many as 5 probably. 2 of them in the electronics bay below the cockpit, possibly what they would call stowaways, and possibly 2-3 as passengers. Plane takes off, all the suspects are on board, at approx 108am the ACARS control module is pulled out by the ones in the Electronic bay. 120am or so co pilot utters the words good night. The captain saw the ACARS light come on and possibly went down to Electronics bay to see if anything was wrong down there, where he was taken out or restrained, that is why it was co-pilot who made last message. The electronic bay can be accessed by small floor door in the cockpit and a small drop down ladder. If Captain did not go down there, the people in the electronics bay accessed the cockpit shortly after last co-pilot message and gained control of cockpit. Odds are the people in the electronics bay would have weapons, possibly some sort of knockout agents they could have used to immobilize both pilots. Once they had control of the cockpit, the other passengers became engaged and were given weapons. Plane would now be secured. Most likely one of the suspects would have been a highly trained pilot on the 777, fully capable of flying the plane and having spent years training for this event. The others would have known exactly how everything in that plane worked, what tracking and electronics could be disabled by, switches, fuses, and control boxes in the electronics bay. All that was done right after the plane supposedly made its turn around. The turnaround was allowed to be tracked to throw investigators off and make plane appear it was heading south when last contact was made.
The supposed altitude paths, 45,000 to 20,000 to 30,000 could have occurred for various reasons. 45000 could possibly have knocked out/killed all the passengers. I'm leaning towards that is all misinformation floated out there and being reported. Passengers are all alive, except for possibly the pilots, some crew and some passengers that may have tried to intervene.
US govt official statements have been almost non existent since the event. The US President made one comment the other day, stating concern for the passengers and their families. Watch the video of his 30 seconds of comments and you will see his right eye quivering and face all tight, all signs of someone knowing more.
What's the end game, obviously plane was taken for a reason, that could be one of many things; hostages could also be used for something, plane used for something. If it known by the US and a few other countries where the plane is, they need time to coordinate a plan and rescue mission. I would guess they need about 4-6 weeks to plan something. Until then, they are letting the Malaysian govt "handle" things, more than happy to see the wild goose chases going on searching for the plane, the false flag satellite images, when it is known all those waters are loaded with tons of debris all over.

Obviously there are variations of what could have happened, how it happened, but we all know this, the plane is missing and there is no crash site and no electronic evidence that has been released that shows where it went or where it crashed. I find it interesting that the Aussie PM has spoken out twice now about the satellite debris, first lending credence to it, then slightly backtracking the other day. The Aussies are one country the US trusts implicitly to cooperate.

If the plane is on the ground and its known where by the US, there is no doubt they want the suspects thinking that everyone believes it crashed and that is why the whole world is searching for it 6000 miles away. also Israeli air defenses continue to operate on the highest alert condition they have, has to be reason.

Savman

seal57 wrote: »

The US and a few other countries know where the plane is, most likely one of the Stans in the mountain areas. Every country has said more or less the same thing publicly, that being, we didn't see it on our radar or its not in our country that we know of. The Malaysian airport is not exactly tightened up security wise like other western major airports. People need to understand the time lines of the flight, what is known, when things occurred, how fast they occurred after takeoff. People also need to understand what is not known, what is not being talked about, discussed, argued, all over the world wide media outlets. We all know a plane disappeared and appearances are everything. First they searched where it was last reported, then a few hundred miles south a couple of days later, now they are searching almost 6000 miles from the Stans. The world press corp are all 6000 miles away from where the plane possibly is.
This was a well planned event, years in the making. Chatter has been around for years about just such an event happening. First thing to pull it off, would be to know the radar footprints of various countries, when they are on, off, where there is no coverage. Second pick an airport with lax security and that operational details could be learned over years. Then Target a nighttime flight and pick a plane with some of the most advanced avionics in the world, a plane that can handle low altitude flight, a plane that has a large fuel capacity, a fast plane, a sturdy plane.
One scenario on how it was taken. A few people involved, as small as 2 and as many as 5 probably. 2 of them in the electronics bay below the cockpit, possibly what they would call stowaways, and possibly 2-3 as passengers. Plane takes off, all the suspects are on board, at approx 108am the ACARS control module is pulled out by the ones in the Electronic bay. 120am or so co pilot utters the words good night. The captain saw the ACARS light come on and possibly went down to Electronics bay to see if anything was wrong down there, where he was taken out or restrained, that is why it was co-pilot who made last message. The electronic bay can be accessed by small floor door in the cockpit and a small drop down ladder. If Captain did not go down there, the people in the electronics bay accessed the cockpit shortly after last co-pilot message and gained control of cockpit. Odds are the people in the electronics bay would have weapons, possibly some sort of knockout agents they could have used to immobilize both pilots. Once they had control of the cockpit, the other passengers became engaged and were given weapons. Plane would now be secured. Most likely one of the suspects would have been a highly trained pilot on the 777, fully capable of flying the plane and having spent years training for this event. The others would have known exactly how everything in that plane worked, what tracking and electronics could be disabled by, switches, fuses, and control boxes in the electronics bay. All that was done right after the plane supposedly made its turn around. The turnaround was allowed to be tracked to throw investigators off and make plane appear it was heading south when last contact was made.
The supposed altitude paths, 45,000 to 20,000 to 30,000 could have occurred for various reasons. 45000 could possibly have knocked out/killed all the passengers. I'm leaning towards that is all misinformation floated out there and being reported. Passengers are all alive, except for possibly the pilots, some crew and some passengers that may have tried to intervene.
US govt official statements have been almost non existent since the event. The US President made one comment the other day, stating concern for the passengers and their families. Watch the video of his 30 seconds of comments and you will see his right eye quivering and face all tight, all signs of someone knowing more.
What's the end game, obviously plane was taken for a reason, that could be one of many things; hostages could also be used for something, plane used for something. If it known by the US and a few other countries where the plane is, they need time to coordinate a plan and rescue mission. I would guess they need about 4-6 weeks to plan something. Until then, they are letting the Malaysian govt "handle" things, more than happy to see the wild goose chases going on searching for the plane, the false flag satellite images, when it is known all those waters are loaded with tons of debris all over.

Obviously there are variations of what could have happened, how it happened, but we all know this, the plane is missing and there is no crash site and no electronic evidence that has been released that shows where it went or where it crashed. I find it interesting that the Aussie PM has spoken out twice now about the satellite debris, first lending credence to it, then slightly backtracking the other day. The Aussies are one country the US trusts implicitly to cooperate.

If the plane is on the ground and its known where by the US, there is no doubt they want the suspects thinking that everyone believes it crashed and that is why the whole world is searching for it 6000 miles away. also Israeli air defenses continue to operate on the highest alert condition they have, has to be reason.

Better call Wesley Snipes.

relaxed

Savman wrote: »

Better call Wesley Snipes.

Panda_Turtle

@Seal57 you would write a good movie script :pac:

relaxed

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Here's another example http://guardianlv.com/2013/07/200-kurds-held-hostage-by-al-qaeda/
Syrian admittedly so hard to know details/veracity.

These examples you are posting are a world apart from a highly complex and risky plan to steal a plane, hide it for 15 or more days, and hang onto the passengers on the off chance that when the plane is heading to its target that it would buy more time if intercepted.

Bill G

Seal57, you mean access the cockpit through the locked e/e bay door?

seal57

Bill G wrote: »

Seal57, you mean access the cockpit through the locked e/e bay door?

I'm not an expert on the security of that access point, but if one of the pilots opened it or it could be unlocked from the E/E side. Even without either of those 2 things happening, not hard to disable a locked door through various methods. Also not hard to disperse an immobilizing agent into the cockpit from that Bay. Anyone wondering why there has been virtually no reporting of the maintenance on that plane, when, where, by who, etc... like I said well planned operation over a long time.

Bill G

seal57 wrote: »

I'm not an expert

Yes, that is apparent

JONJO THE MISER

seal57 wrote: »

The US and a few other countries know where the plane is, most likely one of the Stans in the mountain areas. Every country has said more or less the same thing publicly, that being, we didn't see it on our radar or its not in our country that we know of. The Malaysian airport is not exactly tightened up security wise like other western major airports. People need to understand the time lines of the flight, what is known, when things occurred, how fast they occurred after takeoff. People also need to understand what is not known, what is not being talked about, discussed, argued, all over the world wide media outlets. We all know a plane disappeared and appearances are everything. First they searched where it was last reported, then a few hundred miles south a couple of days later, now they are searching almost 6000 miles from the Stans. The world press corp are all 6000 miles away from where the plane possibly is.
This was a well planned event, years in the making. Chatter has been around for years about just such an event happening. First thing to pull it off, would be to know the radar footprints of various countries, when they are on, off, where there is no coverage. Second pick an airport with lax security and that operational details could be learned over years. Then Target a nighttime flight and pick a plane with some of the most advanced avionics in the world, a plane that can handle low altitude flight, a plane that has a large fuel capacity, a fast plane, a sturdy plane.
One scenario on how it was taken. A few people involved, as small as 2 and as many as 5 probably. 2 of them in the electronics bay below the cockpit, possibly what they would call stowaways, and possibly 2-3 as passengers. Plane takes off, all the suspects are on board, at approx 108am the ACARS control module is pulled out by the ones in the Electronic bay. 120am or so co pilot utters the words good night. The captain saw the ACARS light come on and possibly went down to Electronics bay to see if anything was wrong down there, where he was taken out or restrained, that is why it was co-pilot who made last message. The electronic bay can be accessed by small floor door in the cockpit and a small drop down ladder. If Captain did not go down there, the people in the electronics bay accessed the cockpit shortly after last co-pilot message and gained control of cockpit. Odds are the people in the electronics bay would have weapons, possibly some sort of knockout agents they could have used to immobilize both pilots. Once they had control of the cockpit, the other passengers became engaged and were given weapons. Plane would now be secured. Most likely one of the suspects would have been a highly trained pilot on the 777, fully capable of flying the plane and having spent years training for this event. The others would have known exactly how everything in that plane worked, what tracking and electronics could be disabled by, switches, fuses, and control boxes in the electronics bay. All that was done right after the plane supposedly made its turn around. The turnaround was allowed to be tracked to throw investigators off and make plane appear it was heading south when last contact was made.
The supposed altitude paths, 45,000 to 20,000 to 30,000 could have occurred for various reasons. 45000 could possibly have knocked out/killed all the passengers. I'm leaning towards that is all misinformation floated out there and being reported. Passengers are all alive, except for possibly the pilots, some crew and some passengers that may have tried to intervene.
US govt official statements have been almost non existent since the event. The US President made one comment the other day, stating concern for the passengers and their families. Watch the video of his 30 seconds of comments and you will see his right eye quivering and face all tight, all signs of someone knowing more.
What's the end game, obviously plane was taken for a reason, that could be one of many things; hostages could also be used for something, plane used for something. If it known by the US and a few other countries where the plane is, they need time to coordinate a plan and rescue mission. I would guess they need about 4-6 weeks to plan something. Until then, they are letting the Malaysian govt "handle" things, more than happy to see the wild goose chases going on searching for the plane, the false flag satellite images, when it is known all those waters are loaded with tons of debris all over.

Obviously there are variations of what could have happened, how it happened, but we all know this, the plane is missing and there is no crash site and no electronic evidence that has been released that shows where it went or where it crashed. I find it interesting that the Aussie PM has spoken out twice now about the satellite debris, first lending credence to it, then slightly backtracking the other day. The Aussies are one country the US trusts implicitly to cooperate.

If the plane is on the ground and its known where by the US, there is no doubt they want the suspects thinking that everyone believes it crashed and that is why the whole world is searching for it 6000 miles away. also Israeli air defenses continue to operate on the highest alert condition they have, has to be reason.

Could not of said it better myself. All the people in the know in the intelligence
game are aware this plane has not crashed and is most likely being prepared for a attack of some sort.

Mountainsandh

relaxed wrote: »

These examples you are posting are a world apart from a highly complex and risky plan to steal a plane, hide it for 15 or more days, and hang onto the passengers on the off chance that when the plane is heading to its target that it would buy more time if intercepted.

Not really a world apart, the Somalis are operating with very limited means.

Mountainsandh

Were there ships in the previous search area since yesterday ? I wonder how long it will take them to travel to the spot of the new debris, and how long until a report is made. The spot is a little more than 100 km if I recall right, but seeing as the weather forecast is not great, ship might have travelled away rather than closer to it.

edit : damn it, Cnn are saying searches are over for today, and were unsuccessful.

Another day of intense searches by air and sea concluded for the night with no new clues to give families answers about the fate of the passengers and crew...The Australian Maritime Safety Authority said the spot of the sighting was within Saturday's search area, but that the object was not found. Searchers will take the Chinese information into consideration as they design their search for Sunday, AMSA said.
The floating object was about 77 miles from where earlier satellite images spotted floating debris.
At least six search flights were involved Saturday, including two private jets..

relaxed

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Not really a world apart, the Somalis are operating with very limited means.

The Somalis operate with guns and speedboats a simple strategy to execute, worlds apart from this elaborate plane stealing plan which would require highly complex knowledge of radar systems, access to an airport in the middle of nowhere, with no mobile coverage at all, lots of people on the ground and on the plane involved in the plan, and what really knackers it is they would not know what sort of secret military radar systems the Americans, Chinese and others may have available to them, so even if they can avoid all civilian radar they still wouldn't know if military radar could track them.

Mountainsandh

which is exactly why I made it clear that I did not think the Somalis would have hijacked a plane.

seal57

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Could not of said it better myself. All the people in the know in the intelligence
game are aware this plane has not crashed and is most likely being prepared for a attack of some sort.

That may have been the game plan, to use in an attack, but there is no way that plane leaves the ground, wherever it might be and gets very far. If it was taken and it did not crash, the big question would be, where is it in relationship to possible targets, and how far realistically could it fly before being shot down. My guess is that plane would have less than 30 minutes of possible flight time and probably closer to 5 minutes. If someone took it and it is somewhere, those that took it did a great job of getting this far, but I don't think they fully played out or understood how limited the future use possibilities would be. Makes me think it might be more about the hostages at this point. It's just not plausible that the plane could be used a weapon in the future.

partyatmygaff

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Could not of said it better myself. All the people in the know in the intelligence
game are aware this plane has not crashed and is most likely being prepared for a attack of some sort.

Have you given this theory any thought at all?

If they did know any of this for certain, why wouldn't they just announce it publicly, foil the terrorist's plans and then launch an attack to destroy/recover the plane?

Why keep it quiet? To protect the passengers the terrorists kindly spared?

seal57

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Have you given this theory any thought at all?

If they did know any of this for certain, why wouldn't they just announce it publicly, foil the terrorist's plans and then launch an attack to destroy/recover the plane?

Why keep it quiet? To protect the passengers the terrorists kindly spared?

Many reasons, mostly all Geo- political. Big one being, most of the passengers are Chinese nationals, have to tread lightly. Plus if there are hostages, and access to where the plane is, is restricted or its well secured, its not that easy to just launch an attack. Odds would be the hostages, at least most of them are not near the plane. The may have kept some with the plane but they could've have also killed most of them too. Too many scenarios that could have played out.