Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

owenc

Supercell wrote: »

Looks like the black box batteries may have finally faded - Hunt for missing jet dealt new blow as black box batteries have run out
If the pings that were detected are from MH370 as seems to be highly likely, then where is the debris?? Very odd indeed, suggests (to me)the plane was possibly under some kind of control when the fuel ran out until the last moments.

I read they get a partial ping suggesting engines shut down so that would suggest someone was in control would it not

Tenger

owenc wrote: »

I read they get a partial ping suggesting engines shut down so that would suggest someone was in control would it not

ULB signals have nothing to do with engines.

37.5 is chosen as the frequency as nothing in nature gives off this frequency.

Sam Russell

owenc wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technoprisoner
like i said earlier... when the air france flight 447 went missing years ago i remember them saying that something like shrimp can give off the same frequency as the black box


Well that is a stupid design flaw

Shrimp only do that on the bbq. Thankfully, it is the Ausies (who know all about barbies) that are doing the searches.

Growler!!!

Supercell wrote: »

If the pings that were detected are from MH370 as seems to be highly likely, then where is the debris??

Not being overly obvious but let's think about it. Heavy objects sink, as they sink they also drift due to underwater currents. Where the Aussies are getting the locator is the final resting place after the CVR or FDR has sank not where it went into the water.

The lighter debris remains afloat. The ocean surface current doesn't take time off.
Current is we say 3 knots. So 3 nautical miles per hour. 24 hours in a day so debris moves 72nm from original position on day 1.
By day 30? 72 multiply by 30 equals 2160 nautical miles from original position.
That's close to 4000 km.

All that is assuming a uniform vector for both speed and direction which the ocean doesn't obey. Literally the floating debris could be anywhere.

owenc

Tenger wrote: »

ULB signals have nothing to do with engines.

37.5 is chosen as the frequency as nothing in nature gives off this frequency.

No..... the satillite.

relaxed

warren44 wrote: »

So some people really believe that the Chinese actually picked up the ping with their little hand held locator? lol Aint happening even if these boxes were under water, which they are not.

Cold water will drain the batteries much faster, if the boxes are down there, the signal generator is probably out of juice. Remember its not an audible signal thats being transmitted, it is a radio frequency. Not sure why the media keeps playing a clicking noise acting like you just stick a microphone in the water and thats what you will hear.

Its just going to be one of those mysteries that wont ever be solved.

What a silly contradictory post.

On the one hand you seem to know for a fact that these boxes are not under water and on the other hand you seem to think its a mystery so big that it will never be solved.

You might tell us where the black boxes are please as you seem to know for a fact that they are not under water.

Supercell

Growler!!! wrote: »

Not being overly obvious but let's think about it. Heavy objects sink, as they sink they also drift due to underwater currents. Where the Aussies are getting the locator is the final resting place after the CVR or FDR has sank not where it went into the water.

The lighter debris remains afloat. The ocean surface current doesn't take time off.
Current is we say 3 knots. So 3 nautical miles per hour. 24 hours in a day so debris moves 72nm from original position on day 1.
By day 30? 72 multiply by 30 equals 2160 nautical miles from original position.
That's close to 4000 km.

All that is assuming a uniform vector for both speed and direction which the ocean doesn't obey. Literally the floating debris could be anywhere.

That sounds plausible until you consider that water movements in general are not linear, the water just like the air moves in swirls and eddies, so while it might be true to say that the water moves at say 3 knots in one particular direction on average , in actuality that isn't linear. Think of weather systems for example - a hurricane may have 200 knot winds but the actual system is moving along at 50 knots or less. With swirls and eddies there should be stuff left behind, it isn't all 1000's of km away, there should be some far far closer.

Growler!!!

Supercell wrote: »

That sounds plausible until you consider that water movements in general are not linear, the water just like the air moves in swirls and eddies, so while it might be true to say that the water moves at say 3 knots in one particular direction on average , in actuality that isn't linear. Think of weather systems for example - a hurricane may have 200 knot winds but the actual system is moving along at 50 knots or less. With swirls and eddies there should be stuff left behind, it isn't all 1000's of km away, there should be some far far closer.

Of course it's not linear. Did I not say that at the end of my post?

But the fact remains, once they find the impact point they will then use the SAR software to figure out where the debris dispersed to and look there.

You asked where was the debris. I was giving you an example of how far it could have travelled.


Anyway as an aside I'm off to work now.

None of ye feckers better not ruin the Discovery channel show on the MH370 flight until I get a change to watch it first :D

squonk

Growler!!! wrote: »

None of ye feckers better not ruin the Discovery channel show on the MH370 flight until I get a change to watch it first :D

The plane crashes in the end and nobody can find it.... ooops! Forgot to spoiler that!

Savman

Don't be so sure that they won't find or recover something.

James Cameron completed a manned dive to a much deeper depth (35k feet)

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/26/world/asia/mariana-trench-cameron/

Shuddering thought :eek:

On another note, the side effect is how this will affect tourism in Malaysia. One article from the region:
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-mh370-tragedy-font-drop-in-chinese-tourists-to-malaysia-following-incident-1.558466
I can understand the Chinese abstaining from travelling there but I doubt the rest of the world will tbh.

Malaysian Airlines, on the other hand, will suffer. Losing a jet without any explanation is very very bad for business and it will take a long time for them to recover (they were already in a bad way financially due to LCC's like Air Asia). I believe they are government funded so they won't go bust but there will be fall out from this.

Tenger

I love people who respond to the first part of a post without reading the rest.....have been that soul a few times myself!!!

Growler!!! wrote: »

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......All that is assuming a uniform vector for both speed and direction which the ocean doesn't obey. Literally the floating debris could be anywhere.

Supercell wrote: »

That sounds plausible until you consider that water movements in general are not linear, the water just like the air moves in swirls and eddies......

seal57

relaxed wrote: »

What a silly contradictory post.

On the one hand you seem to know for a fact that these boxes are not under water and on the other hand you seem to think its a mystery so big that it will never be solved.

You might tell us where the black boxes are please as you seem to know for a fact that they are not under water.

He's not saying he knows where they are, but then again no one does. All he implies is that they could be on land also. Any coincidence that Chuck Hagel meets with Malaysian PM in Hawaii last week and then he's meeting in China this week with various Chinese leaders. Meeting in Hawaii for a reason? Can't trust Malaysian Gov't to ensure proper security for such a meeting, meaning details being learned or leaked.

By finding these so called new Pings now, right at the 30 day battery window for the pings to be found, it will now lead to weeks of searching underwater with all the submersible vehicles, nothing like buying more time.

So what we all know right now is not one piece of wreckage and no found Black boxes. No searches on land we know of, all in an ocean that is unforgiving and not easy to find anything. Someone made the analogy of its like trying to find a specific copper penny located somewhere in the united sates and having no idea to where to start looking for it.

sopretty

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

Jack1985

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

Why??

sopretty

Jack1985 wrote: »

Why??

Because there are millions being spent. 239 lives.
There are possibly 239,000 lives who could be saved with the equivalent millions.

Rhys Essien

sopretty wrote: »

Because there are millions being spent. 239 lives.
There are possibly 239,000 lives who could be saved with the equivalent millions.

You could look at it another way and say that the Navy and Air force dont do a whole lot most of the time,patrols etc.At least now they are doing something constructive.

Boeing also needs answers as to what happened to its plane,as does the aviation world in general.

Jack1985

sopretty wrote: »

Because there are millions being spent. 239 lives.
There are possibly 239,000 lives who could be saved with the equivalent millions.

Christ can we get away from this sort of discussion now, because the amount spent on global wars would wipe out poverty in months, it has nothing to do with MH370 or the aviation industry.

It comes back to your argument about arrogance in aviation yesterday, they're spending millions to ensure what-ever happened can never happened again if its a technicality failure which resulted in the crash, or if its another cause than the industry will do its utmost to see that never happen again. But the industry needs answers. Far from arrogance.

Really don't see you're point at all, if you're that concerned about poverty, give money, many do - I doubt the aviation industry need's a moral compass to spend whatever money it has on poverty, that has nothing actually to do with the industry itself?

Puzzled why it's even brought up here to be honest.

Tenger

sopretty wrote: »

Because there are millions being spent. 239 lives.
There are possibly 239,000 lives who could be saved with the equivalent millions.

CNN 2 days ago estimated $50m cost so far. That is a lot of cash but in relative terms still less than the actual cost of the B772 that is missing.


So if it was your loved ones would you accept the logic that "its no longer financially viable to continue the search"?

And to put it in financial terms....there are currently over 1000 B777's flying around the world. It is the interest of international air travel, Malaysia, Malaysian Airlines, IATA, Boeing among others to find the plane and figure out what lost those 239 lives.

On another point all the military assets and personnel being used are being paid for anyway so at least the nations involved are getting value for money.

Sam Russell

Well some of that money that is being spent would be used anyway. Some agencies would say it is justified in that it forms training and improves technology or tests technology and that benefits everyone.

Also, the airlines, passengers, and other interested parties would like a solution to the mystery. I think many nervous passengers would expect such a calamity to befall them if they were to travel on such a flight/airplane/B777 or whatever and they need to be reassured. Finding the cause will allow preventative measures to be tried and installed, and confidence to return to air travel.

Overall, I consider that the current effort has not been excessive, and I am encouraged that the have found (if they have) a very large plane in a huge area of hostile ocean.

Let us hope they have located the plane, even if it is three miles down in the southern ocean.

robbieVan

sopretty wrote: »

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

wow, just wow

sopretty

Tenger wrote: »

CNN 2 days ago estimated $50m cost so far. That is a lot of cash but in relative terms still less than the actual cost of the B772 that is missing.


So if it was your loved ones would you accept the logic that "its no longer financially viable to continue the search"?

And to put it in financial terms....there are currently over 1000 B777's flying around the world. It is the interest of international air travel, Malaysia, Malaysian Airlines, IATA, Boeing among others to find the plane and figure out what lost those 239 lives.

On another point all the military assets and personnel being used are being paid for anyway so at least the nations involved are getting value for money.

Why are they attributing costs to this specific operation then, if they are ordinary operational costs?

It happens all the time that resources are cut into investigations.

It is an extraordinary amount of money and resources to be throwing at an investigation into the death of 239 lives.

If there are wider implications, then just admit it. Don't peddle the notion that money is being thrown at this investigation for the sake of the 239 lives lost.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

Why are they attributing costs to this specific operation then, if they are ordinary operational costs?

It happens all the time that resources are cut into investigations.

It is an extraordinary amount of money and resources to be throwing at an investigation into the death of 239 lives.

If there are wider implications, then just admit it. Don't peddle the notion that money is being thrown at this investigation for the sake of the 239 lives lost.

Because this is not just about 239 people. It is about every person who gets on a plane every day.

The aviation sector has put a lot of effort into accident investigation because typically, historically, the public has demanded answers. No one wants planes just crashing, falling out of the sky, disappearing, because a lot of people get on planes every single day. If there is a lesson to be learned from this accident, typically, the aviation industry wants to know about it.

It's not just about the money. If we did a cost benefit analysis on lives lost prematurely versus the cost of answering the question of why, we'd never investigate a murder. Some things are right to do; somethings are right to spend the money on. Yes, sometimes things get given up on, but strangely enough, the aviation industry hangs in there quite a long time.

I will remind you that it took 2 years to get the recorders and the main wreckage of AF447 and at that stage, we still already had a better idea what happened to that plane compared to the current situation.

sopretty

I'd prefer if they admitted that the continued investigations have nothing to do with a search for the dead and has everything to do with finding answers (apparently).

They are using the 239 lives as justification for this massive search and investigation when even the dogs on the street know that that is a lie.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I'd prefer if they admitted that the continued investigations have nothing to do with a search for the dead and has everything to do with finding answers (apparently).

They are using the 239 lives as justification for this massive search and investigation when even the dogs on the street know that that is a lie.

I think it is stretching it to say that the 239 lives lost have nothing to do with it. Those people are a part of it too.

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

I think it is stretching it to say that the 239 lives lost have nothing to do with it. Those people are a part of it too.

You have the right to believe that. I won't argue with your belief.

murphaph

sopretty wrote: »

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

Some day you and your family might be on a B777 that suffers the same malfunction as the one they are trying to find with this search.

sopretty

murphaph wrote: »

Some day you and your family might be on a B777 that suffers the same malfunction as the one they are trying to find with this search.

I guarantee you they won't auspiciously throw millions at an investigation to find us.

Tenger

sopretty wrote: »

Why are they attributing costs to this specific operation then, if they are ordinary operational costs?

It happens all the time that resources are cut into investigations.

It is an extraordinary amount of money and resources to be throwing at an investigation into the death of 239 lives.

If there are wider implications, then just admit it. Don't peddle the notion that money is being thrown at this investigation for the sake of the 239 lives lost.

Because people like you demand some sort of cost figure. This search will go on for as long as required as this is a huge incident in modern aviation. And answers need to be found, both for the families, the airline, the aircraft manufacturer and the wider travelling public.


Earlier I typed "search costs MH370" into Google. I got several news reports. I read the one from New Strait Times. It stated some of the operational costs from some of the countries.

With something like this it may be hard to definitively seperate normal operational costs from search specific runnings costs. However the fuel expenditure and man hours involved is very easy to account for. EG. HMAS Ocean Shield costs AUS$500,000 per day of operation.....so if that was supposed to be in port for the last 10 days then that's AUS$5mil extra.

I hope that data satisfies your bizarre queries.

Still didn't answer my query on whether you would want the investigation to stop due to costs if it involved a family member. In addition I expect you will no longer fly on B777 in case they never figure out the cause?


You have made some troll-like posts in this thread over the course of the last 3 weeks but this really takes the biscuit.

sopretty wrote: »

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

Joeseph Balls

sopretty wrote: »

I guarantee you they won't auspiciously throw millions at an investigation to find us.

Of course you do.

murphaph

sopretty wrote: »

I guarantee you they won't auspiciously throw millions at an investigation to find us.

It's not really about finding anyone at this stage. It's about finding out what brought the plane down and rectifying it if it was some technical or procedural fault. Your life may already have been saved by similar expensive investigations in the past!