Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

sopretty

If the Malaysian government would stop using the 'families' as an excuse for this search or a reason for this scale of a search, I would believe them. The reality is, the 'families' are a minor irritation to them. That is my view.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

If the Malaysian government would stop using the 'families' as an excuse for this search or a reason for this scale of a search, I would believe them. The reality is, the 'families' are a minor irritation to them. That is my view.

I am not sure what your point is to be honest.

Are you suggesting you're a valid arbiter of what constitutes an acceptable reason to continue searching? Should the search only continue on grounds you consider acceptable? Is that your point?

Mountainsandh

... pity air to ground link FDR-CVRs not in the list of priorities right now...

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

I am not sure what your point is to be honest.

Are you suggesting you're a valid arbiter of what constitutes an acceptable reason to continue searching? Should the search only continue on grounds you consider acceptable? Is that your point?

No.
I'm saying that if you are continuing a search for specific reasons such as international aviation interest, international aviation safety etc., then just say that. Don't expect people to believe that the global community is willing to invest millions upon millions in a search for the aircraft for the 'families'.

eatmyshorts

sopretty wrote: »

The amount of money being thrown at this is starting to annoy me.

Idiot.
That is all.

fits

Anyway...

Another excellent graphic from Washington post. Especially the info about the unmanned autonomous vehicle, bluefin.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-fish-and-a-robot-search-for-flight-370/2014/04/09/808269c4-c056-11e3-b574-f8748871856a_graphic.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

sopretty

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Idiot.
That is all.

I have reported your post.

I stand by my belief that the authorities are using the 'families' as an excuse for a mulimillion dollar search (if not in the region of billions of dollars). Everyone knows that the 'families' are not the reason for this amount of money being thrown at this investigation.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I have reported your post.

I stand by my belief that the authorities are using the 'families' as an excuse for a mulimillion dollar search (if not in the region of billions of dollars). Everyone knows that the 'families' are not the reason for this amount of money being thrown at this investigation.

Of course you do. It's a belief founded on a complete lack of empathy and domain knowledge.

Most people understand that the world is complex and complicated. If you genuinely didn't understand that Malaysia's interest is in the families and everyone else's interests include also aviation safety concerns, then thank you for disabusing me of the notion that people recognise the world is complex. I honestly thought this was not something which had to be spelled out.

In the meantime, you could learn a little empathy towards the families. Their position is not one I would choose to share.

lord lucan

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Idiot.
That is all.

Attack the post, not the poster.

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

Of course you do. It's a belief founded on a complete lack of empathy and domain knowledge.

Most people understand that the world is complex and complicated. If you genuinely didn't understand that Malaysia's interest is in the families and everyone else's interests include also aviation safety concerns, then thank you for disabusing me of the notion that people recognise the world is complex. I honestly thought this was not something which had to be spelled out.

In the meantime, you could learn a little empathy towards the families. Their position is not one I would choose to share.

I have every empathy for the families. Which is why I do not like seeing them being used as an excuse for a multi-million dollar search. We all know that is not the reason. I want to hear a credible reason for this amount of money being invested in this investigation. Don't try to tell me that it's for the sake of the families. Don't insult my intelligence and don't show up your own lack of intelligence in so doing.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I have every empathy for the families. Which is why I do not like seeing them being used as an excuse for a multi-million dollar search. We all know that is not the reason. I want to hear a credible reason for this amount of money being invested in this investigation. Don't try to tell me that it's for the sake of the families. Don't insult my intelligence and don't show up your own lack of intelligence in so doing.

This post is beyond hilarious.

Let me ask you one simple question.

Are you suggesting that improving aviation safety is not a credible reason?

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

This post is beyond hilarious.

Let me ask you one simple question.

Are you suggesting that improving aviation safety is not a credible reason?

I'm suggesting that if that is the sole motivation for these millions of dollars, then admit it.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I'm suggesting that if that is the sole motivation for these millions of dollars, then admit it.

You have not answered the question I asked.

You said you wanted a credible reason. You have been given that reason several times in the last few pages. I have asked if you believe it is a credible reason. I do not, at this point, care whether it is the position of the Malaysian government or not, only whether you personally think it's a credible reason to continue searching.

Also - recall we are here because you implied it was a waste of money.

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

You have not answered the question I asked.

You said you wanted a credible reason. You have been given that reason several times in the last few pages. I have asked if you believe it is a credible reason. I do not, at this point, care whether it is the position of the Malaysian government or not, only whether you personally think it's a credible reason to continue searching.

Also - recall we are here because you implied it was a waste of money.

I implied that it was a waste of money given the reasons we are being given by the Malaysian Government.
I have clarified, that I do not believe the Malysian Government.
I have further clarified that the reason that I am annoyed with this amount of money being thrown at this investigation is because the investigators (or the Malaysian Government) state time after time, that they are throwing this money at this investigation for the sake of the 'families'.
I think the 'families' and the world, knows damned well, that the families play little part in the investment in this investigation.
IF, they justified the massive expenditure, for reasons other than the 'families', then I would listen. Thus far, they have not.

PS: I do not appreciate being called an idiot. It is far more idiotic to believe what governments tell you in my opinion.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I implied that it was a waste of money given the reasons we are being given by the Malaysian Government.
I have clarified, that I do not believe the Malysian Government.
I have further clarified that the reason that I am annoyed with this amount of money being thrown at this investigation is because the investigators (or the Malaysian Government) state time after time, that they are throwing this money at this investigation for the sake of the 'families'.
I think the 'families' and the world, knows damned well, that the families play little part in the investment in this investigation.
IF, they justified the massive expenditure, for reasons other than the 'families', then I would listen. Thus far, they have not.

PS: I do not appreciate being called an idiot. It is far more idiotic to believe what governments tell you in my opinion.

There is no answer to my question buried in that.

Do you believe improving aviation safety is a credible reason to continue searching or not? Regardless of whether the Malaysian authorities cite it or not, you surely have an opinion on that.

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

There is no answer to my question buried in that.

Do you believe improving aviation safety is a credible reason to continue searching or not? Regardless of whether the Malaysian authorities cite it or not, you surely have an opinion on that.

Yes, I do. Once the agencies involved cite such reasons and not the 'families' as the reason for continuing to search.

sopretty

I'd like to ask Calina, EatmyShorts, and the guy who 'liked' EatmyShorts' comment as to me being an idiot;

Do any of you believe that the sole purpose for the multi millions of dollars invested in this search is to find answers for the 'families' of the 239 on that flight?

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I'd like to ask Calina, EatmyShorts, and the guy who 'liked' EatmyShorts' comment as to me being an idiot;

Do any of you believe that the sole purpose for the multi millions of dollars invested in this search is to find answers for the 'families' of the 239 on that flight?

Previously:

Calina wrote: »

Because this is not just about 239 people. It is about every person who gets on a plane every day.

The aviation sector has put a lot of effort into accident investigation because typically, historically, the public has demanded answers. No one wants planes just crashing, falling out of the sky, disappearing, because a lot of people get on planes every single day. If there is a lesson to be learned from this accident, typically, the aviation industry wants to know about it.

It's not just about the money. If we did a cost benefit analysis on lives lost prematurely versus the cost of answering the question of why, we'd never investigate a murder. Some things are right to do; somethings are right to spend the money on. Yes, sometimes things get given up on, but strangely enough, the aviation industry hangs in there quite a long time.

I will remind you that it took 2 years to get the recorders and the main wreckage of AF447 and at that stage, we still already had a better idea what happened to that plane compared to the current situation.

Short answer: nope and if you read my posts you'd know that it didn't even occur to me that someone would think it was the sole reason. I have made it clear that it is obvious that the underlying reasons are complex, and additionally, that the motivations for different parties vary.

sopretty

Calina wrote: »

Previously:



Short answer: nope and if you read my posts you'd know that it didn't even occur to me that someone would think it was the sole reason. I have made it clear that it is obvious that the underlying reasons are complex, and additionally, that the motivations for different parties vary.

So we're getting somewhere?

So, does it annoy you every time you hear about the search continuing for the sake of the 'families'?

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

So we're getting somewhere?

So, does it annoy you every time you hear about the search continuing for the sake of the 'families'?

We're getting nowhere. You've not bothered reading my posts in enough detail and to get a simple yes/no answer out of you I had to ask several times. To answer yours, I quoted one of my own posts on the same page.

I don't appear to pay attention to the same media sources as you as I do not hear - ever - of the search continuing for the sake of the families and even if I did, it probably wouldn't bother me in the grandest scheme of things because, as you've noted, I have a lack of intelligence and have generally posted no domain knowledgeable posts in this thread at all.

What does annoy me is the media coverage. This story has demonstrated that 24 hour news media cannot cope with information vacuums. The early reporting of this story was, to be utterly frank, devoid of responsibility and coherence.

What matters to me is locating this plane and identifying the coincident causes of this tragedy. If, for the purposes of their local PR, the Malaysian authorities emphasise family care, I really don't care. I'm aware that there are cultural differences and I'm equally aware that the press has demonstrated a complete lack of context for said differences. It is typical behaviour for the media. I wish it weren't so.

I have no idea why you've latched onto this today to the extent that you're sick of the money being spent. It is evident from other responses besides mine that your opinion is not shared.

NicoleL88

Documentary just started on Discovery!

A Primal Nut

sopretty wrote: »

I have reported your post.

I stand by my belief that the authorities are using the 'families' as an excuse for a mulimillion dollar search (if not in the region of billions of dollars). Everyone knows that the 'families' are not the reason for this amount of money being thrown at this investigation.

So what do you think the reason is, out of interest?

For someone who is so interested in the search, I'm shocked that you want it to stop. €25m combined or whatever the current figure being thrown around is; is not a lot of money for all the militaries involved. Combined they've probably spent trillions on their militaries over the last few years.

sopretty wrote: »

Do any of you believe that the sole purpose for the multi millions of dollars invested in this search is to find answers for the 'families' of the 239 on that flight?

Have you got a source for this? I haven't heard them say that was the sole reason.

sopretty

I have read all of your posts; some of which make sense to me; some of which don't.

The source for statements that the search is being continued for the sake of the families is the Malaysian Government which has been broadcast across various media and by various media sources.

If you lack in intelligence, there is nothing I can do about that. You have noted this.

If you have no domain knowledge, again, that is your own statement, not mine.

What matters to you is 'locating this plane and identifying the coincident causes of this tragedy'. Do you care about the families? Do you put a cost limitation on this?

"If, for the purposes of their local PR, the Malaysian authorities emphasise family care, I really don't care."
That's nice. My point exactly.

'It is evident from other responses besides mine that your opinion is not shared.'
Don't be fooled by silence.

Nonoperational

sopretty wrote: »

I have read all of your posts; some of which make sense to me; some of which don't.

The source for statements that the search is being continued for the sake of the families is the Malaysian Government. Broadcast across various media and by various media sources.

If you lack in intelligence, there is nothing I can do about that. You have noted this.

If you have posted no domain knowledge, again, that is your own statement, not mine.

What matters to you is 'locating this plane and identifying the coincident causes of this tragedy'. Do you care about the families? Do you put a cost limitation on this?

"If, for the purposes of their local PR, the Malaysian authorities emphasise family care, I really don't care."
That's nice. My point exactly.

'It is evident from other responses besides mine that your opinion is not shared.'
Don't be fooled by silence.

You're after getting yourself into an awful hole here over a pretty inconsequential point. If you have even a passing interest in aviation you will know that planes don't crash and get forgotten about. That is of course the main reason they are looking for it. They need to find out why it crashed. If there is a possibility of terrorism it peaks peoples' interest even more.
It's silly and naive to think the government would come out and say that they don't care about the families and only want to find the plane because of x y z, and frankly I don't see what it would achieve.

Calina

sopretty wrote: »

I have read all of your posts; some of which make sense to me; some of which don't.

This does not surprise me.

sopretty wrote: »

The source for statements that the search is being continued for the sake of the families is the Malaysian Government which has been broadcast across various media and by various media sources.

I'm afraid I do not have the time to read media sources providing information which I do not trust. As noted above, this is not a feature of the reports which I read.

sopretty wrote: »

If you lack in intelligence, there is nothing I can do about that. You have noted this.

You've clearly missed my point.

sopretty wrote: »

If you have no domain knowledge, again, that is your own statement, not mine.

This would be hilarious if it was not so tragic.

I was being sarcastic. If you had read my posts, particularly some of the earlier ones, you'd understand that actually I have domain knowledge. You've previously thanked me for clarifications also.

sopretty wrote: »

What matters to you is 'locating this plane and identifying the coincident causes of this tragedy'. Do you care about the families? Do you put a cost limitation on this?

Unlikely you, I don't feel qualified to voice an opinion on a cost limitation. That is for those who are paying to decide for themselves.

My heart goes out to the families but I don't use them as an argument battering ram the way you appear to have.

sopretty wrote: »

"If, for the purposes of their local PR, the Malaysian authorities emphasise family care, I really don't care."
That's nice. My point exactly.

It isn't actually your point. My point is that I don't get excised by what the Malaysian authorities say in this respect as they have different priorities.

sopretty wrote: »

'It is evident from other responses besides mine that your opinion is not shared.'
Don't be fooled by silence.

Those voices which are not me and which have also not been silent are not of your opinion.

I would never assume silence backs me up, however. I find that an arrogant approach to take.

Mountainsandh

I understand Sopretty's point, although I am not annoyed, personally, at the money spent.

It's simply that hypocrisy and a possible lack of transparency (once again in this story) are annoying.

That is not an outrageous stance to have.

edit : may I add that the ganging up on one poster is not really conducive to an interesting discussion. There seems to be a good bit of that here.

Five Lamps

The money spent is only notional. The assets and personnel used are largely military who would be paid anyway except they are now doing something productive with their time.

Leaving aside the share price of Boeing and Malaysian Airways, I think the general travelling public would be interested in knowing what happened here and if it could be repeated. I think most people safely assumed that an airliner could not take off and just vanish.

sopretty

Five Lamps wrote: »

The money spent is only notional. The assets and personnel used are largely military who would be paid anyway except they are now doing something productive with their time.

Leaving aside the share price of Boeing and Malaysian Airways, I think the general travelling public would be interested in knowing what happened here and if it could be repeated. I think most people safely assumed that an airliner could not take off and just vanish.

So the 'families' are a minor consideration. Is that a fair statement?

sopretty

Five Lamps wrote: »

The money spent is only notional. The assets and personnel used are largely military who would be paid anyway except they are now doing something productive with their time.

Leaving aside the share price of Boeing and Malaysian Airways, I think the general travelling public would be interested in knowing what happened here and if it could be repeated. I think most people safely assumed that an airliner could not take off and just vanish.

Do you think that the British, the US, Chinese and Australian militaries are concerned about the general travelling public?
ETA Do you honestly believe that all of these massive nations came together with all of their military capabilities being exposed for the sake of the general travelling public?

sopretty

To qualify my earlier statement to which you all took umbrage. I want to know WHY so much money is being thrown at this apparent search effort.