Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

Colser

folbotcar wrote: »

I note your sarcasm. If there's one thing everyone agrees on then it's the reality that some person or person did this on purpose.

So what's your point or is your post simply an idle and pointless riposte to mine? Well at least you got a couple of likes out of it from your fans.

I didnt mean to be sarcastic but isnt your theory regarding a pre planned event by more than one person a conspiracy and in agreement with what a lot of other posters believe MAY have occured? I dont think everyone agrees it was done on purpose at all quite the opposite in fact and everyone is entitled to speculate until some concrete evidence is found.

I dont think people are nutjobs or chemically imbalanced just because they are openminded about what happened until proven otherwise.

Mountainsandh

folbotcar wrote: »

Don't ask me. I don't know. None of us know. Hence the speculation.
.

Exactly.
So really, everything goes at this stage.

If indeed the inmarsat data is accurate, and the pings were not vagrant seismic equipment lost at sea for example, or other ping emitting rubbish left to rot on the sea bed, well then yes, it might be down in the Indian Ocean, for a motive we might never figure out.

Equally though, it could turn out that for political reasons, countries were not entirely transparent with what information they could or could not contribute to the investigation. In that case, there is a possibility that the doppler calculations were inaccurate (that possibility is there either way), and that the plane may have crashed somewhere else, or been taken somewhere else.

I have no defined idea of what happened either, but I just cannot rule out that Northern Arc possibility, and with every day that passes with no trace of debris, it becomes more plausible.

I do not think all agencies are deliberately taking part in a cover up, I think they are possibly misinformed (ie crucial information has been possibly withheld).

Spring Onion

Calina wrote: »

This thread is utterly depressing today.

When I review the actual news, there isn't any change, the plane is still missing, the most reliable information says south Indian Ocean somewhere.

This place is absolutely at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, around 3 miles below the surface. The lack of progress in finding will fuel conspiracy theories and the fact that it will never be found will make it worse.

Mountainsandh

Tenger wrote: »

ELT's are separate/in addition to FDR's and CVR's.

A widebody aircraft will usually have 1-2 ELT fitted to the airframe, and 1 on each slideraft. These are however short range and with less battery duration than the Black Boxes.

ELT's have a auto setting which for example activates with contact to water. The failure rate may relate to this. They also have a manual switch. (some aircraft have them able to be detached by the crew)

Thank you. And the pings from the ELTs do ping to satellite ? I was reading this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_radiobeacon#Satellites
and it's pretty complicated (for me), but I gather that whether doppler or GPS, there is a margin of uncertainty as regards coverage. However we do know the inmarsat communications satellite covered a range of the area, I wonder would it have picked up on beacon if one did go off ? or should it ?

I don't think anyone would have been conscious or alive to activate one, so it would have to be Gforce or water activated.

Very unfortunate if the ELTs on that aircraft all malfunctioned, not good publicity for Boeing or MA.

pfurey101

This forum has gone all silly and while I'm so tempted to pick up many a point made above - what's the point? It all goes a round in circles and many of these same points were put to bed 100's of pages ago.

For those interested in a non tabloid forum, check out the Professional Pilots Rumour Network

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost-510.html

Some forum members here won't think much of it.

Mountainsandh

Spring Onion wrote: »

This place is absolutely at the bottom of the Indian Ocean, around 3 miles below the surface. The lack of progress in finding will fuel conspiracy theories and the fact that it will never be found will make it worse.

It is deeply ironic to categorically dismiss some theories with a very categorical statement that it will never be found.

Mountainsandh

pfurey101 wrote: »

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost-510.html

Some forum members here won't think much of it.

I see as much guesswork and speculation on there as here tbh.

But with a more credible habit (clothing).

seal57

This was a well planned terrorist act, years in the making. Who, we do not know yet.
The plane is on land, not some small island like Diego Garcia. Where, none of us know, nor do the press. Just like those that think it wnet in the Ocean, just as many think it is on land, the old 50-50 guess. No right, no wrong in anyones opinion. But once the officials start floating it may be on land off the record, soon it becomes on the record.

I think a lot of people would be surprised that a lot of countries can work together, to save 250 or so people. Shutting down the ocean search after as it appears they are close to doing, says a lot. Sure they may send some planes up and possibly say they have to wait to get more submersible vehicles on station, but thats all smoke screen stuff.

Everyone has their opinion... no one is in a position to offer any sort of proof one way or the the other. We all know nothing and there is no way anyone should believe most of what has come out. But there are clues and some stories that let people use a best guest as to what they believe or what happened. There is no right and wrong either, just go to bed and say a prayer for the lost souls.

Me, I believe most of them are still alive and until someone can show otherwise, thats what i think. I believe they will be rescued.

Mountainsandh

All possible options.
I don't personally believe they are alive.

It could be crashed in mountains on the Northern Arc, or landed in an obscure (or less obscure but with more cover up) airport for terrorist motives, but considering the number of weeks since the disappearance imo there is little hope they're alive.

Tenger

seal57 wrote: »

.......
Me, I believe most of them are still alive and until someone can show otherwise, thats what i think. I believe they will be rescued.

I, on the other hand believe the aircraft is somewhere in the Indian Ocean. Whether it was a botched hijacking, deliberate diversion & ditching or a sequence of multiple technical failures I do not know.

I am hopeful that the search will eventually find the aircraft but am not expecting a discovery anytime soon.

So while we have differing opinions we can still refrain from insults and provocation to each other. And at this point with the info in the public domain we are unable to advance our debate much further,

sully2010

seal57 wrote: »

This was a well planned terrorist act, years in the making. Who, we do not know yet.
The plane is on land, not some small island like Diego Garcia. Where, none of us know, nor do the press. Just like those that think it wnet in the Ocean, just as many think it is on land, the old 50-50 guess. No right, no wrong in anyones opinion. But once the officials start floating it may be on land off the record, soon it becomes on the record.

I think a lot of people would be surprised that a lot of countries can work together, to save 250 or so people. Shutting down the ocean search after as it appears they are close to doing, says a lot. Sure they may send some planes up and possibly say they have to wait to get more submersible vehicles on station, but thats all smoke screen stuff.

Everyone has their opinion... no one is in a position to offer any sort of proof one way or the the other. We all know nothing and there is no way anyone should believe most of what has come out. But there are clues and some stories that let people use a best guest as to what they believe or what happened. There is no right and wrong either, just go to bed and say a prayer for the lost souls.

Me, I believe most of them are still alive and until someone can show otherwise, thats what i think. I believe they will be rescued.

If it was a well planned terrorist attack as you say why would they keep 250 or so people alive for months after they "stole" the plane. I really dont think it would be in their interest to keep feeding and watering this amount of people for so long.

I also think it is somewhere in the Indian ocean but could take a long time to find or maybe never.

seal57

sully2010 wrote: »

If it was a well planned terrorist attack as you say why would they keep 250 or so people alive for months after they "stole" the plane. I really dont think it would be in their interest to keep feeding and watering this amount of people for so long.

I also think it is somewhere in the Indian ocean but could take a long time to find or maybe never.

Why do terrorists do anything.... they're nut jobs... they get to hold the world hostage and ensure the world knows no one is immune from their sick actions.... The message will be continue to be no one is safe.. That being said, they do know how to plane terror well.

sully2010

seal57 wrote: »

Why do terrorists do anything.... they're nut jobs... they get to hold the world hostage and ensure the world knows no one is immune from their sick actions.... The message will be continue to be no one is safe.. That being said, they do know how to plane terror well.

Exactly so why keep the passengers alive if your theory was to be true?

seal57

sully2010 wrote: »

Exactly so why keep the passengers alive if your theory was to be true?

Many reasons to keep them alive, their own skin, the story then becomes absolutely huge and they instill more fear in people of the world and they literally could drag it out for long time. There is an old saying, Silence is Golden and the besides the Malaysians, the rest of the players in this, US, Britain, China, Israel, Boeing, Rolls royce, are absolutely clammed up tighter than a drum. No public comments since day one of any substance. And since when does the US Scty of Defense meet with all the players in China, Hawaii, Europe.... He met the Malaysian PM in Hawaii. The Aussie PM met them all in China... all I'm saying is people need to keep an open mind.

the_monkey

Back to the real story here .

They want to bring in a more powerful sonar system, same one that found the Titanic.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/australia-news-blog/video/2014/apr/22/william-kate-royal-tour-political-home-movie-australia-david-marr-video

MH370: more powerful sonar needed in plane search, says Australia



Australian authorities searching for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 are gearing up to send in much more powerful sonar equipment to scan for debris on the seabed.
Search co-ordinators said on Wednesday that nothing had been found by the US navy robotic submarine Bluefin 21, which has covered more than 80% of a zone off the Australian west coast.
The area of 310 square kilometres (120 square miles) is thought to be where the plane is most likely to have gone down, based on "ping" signals that match those from an airliner's black box. Those signals were picked up by search vessels but are thought to have ceased when the beacons' batteries ran out.

Australia's defence minister, David Johnston, said more powerful towed side-scan commercial sonar equipment would probably be deployed, similar to the system that found the Titanic 3,800m (12,500f) under the Atlantic Ocean in 1985 and the Australian second world war wreck HMAS Sydney in the Indian Ocean, north of the current search area, in 2008.
"The next phase, I think, is that we step up with potentially a more powerful, more capable side-scan sonar to do deeper water," Johnston said.
Australia was consulting with Malaysia, China and the US on the next phase of the search for the plane, which went missing on 8 March after veering off course between Kuala Lumpur and Beijing, Johnston said

The search area is a circle 20km (12 miles) wide around an area where sonar equipment picked up a signal on 8 April consistent with a plane's black box.

The Bluefin had less than one-fifth of the search area left to complete but that could take another two weeks, the minister said. "We want to be very thorough."
The Bluefin's first 16-hour seafloor mission last week was aborted because the water depth exceeded its 4.5km safety limit. Johnston said it was possible wreckage had been missed in that deep water.
Analysis was continuing of flight data and the apparent black box beacon signals, Johnston said. "We are currently gathering all of the facts together to mount a further assault on the most likely location, given all the facts," he said.
"A lot of this seabed has not even been hydrographically surveyed before ... we're flying blind," he said, adding that there were waters 7km deep in the area.
The air search for debris would likely continue until the announcement of a new search phase next week, Johnston said.
Radar and satellite signals have shown the jet carrying 239 passengers and crew veered far off course for unknown reasons during its flight from Malaysia to China. Analysis indicates it would have run out of fuel in the remote section of ocean where the search has been focused, but no debris has yet been recovered.

The Associated Press contributed to this report

squonk

Thanks Monkey! Good to see a decent contribution here on this thread of late. I'm sick to death of the conspiracy nutjobs at this stage.

folbotcar

Colser wrote: »

I didnt mean to be sarcastic but isnt your theory regarding a pre planned event by more than one person a conspiracy and in agreement with what a lot of other posters believe MAY have occured? I dont think everyone agrees it was done on purpose at all quite the opposite in fact and everyone is entitled to speculate until some concrete evidence is found.

I dont think people are nutjobs or chemically imbalanced just because they are openminded about what happened until proven otherwise.

One of the problems with the accident theory is that you really need a perfect storm of failures that knocked out all the relevant tracking systems and incapacitated the crew and passengers without affecting the ability of the aircraft to continue to fly on while avoiding detection until it fell without trace into the deepest and most remote part of the ocean. Most conspiracy theories make more sense than that.

I agree there is a difference between being open minded and being paranoid. But being too open minded leaves you too easily receptive to superficially plausible theories. In fact my post was aimed at the rational reader. The Diego Garcia plot falls apart with the smallest inspection and fails the simple 'why' test. Apply the same test to any theory and if it fails it, move on. Unless you are dopamine afflicted it's relatively obvious.

Unfortunately the only really plausible theory, is that someone on board re directed MH370 which by accident or design ended in it sinking in ocean.

sopretty

folbotcar wrote: »

The Diego Garcia plot falls apart with the smallest inspection and fails the simple 'why' test. Apply the same test to any theory and if it fails it, move on. Unless you are dopamine afflicted it's relatively obvious.

Unfortunately the only really plausible theory, is that someone on board re directed MH370 which by accident or design ended in it sinking in ocean.

Given then that you're presumably not dopamine afflicted and that the answer must be relatively obvious, what is the answer to the 'Why' test, in relation to your 'only really plausible theory'?

the_monkey

I dont know how reliable this is but :

http://news.sky.com/story/1247611/missing-plane-material-washes-ashore-in-oz

Missing Plane: Material Washes Ashore In Oz


Investigators hope the discovery of objects six miles off the coast will help unravel the mystery of flight MH370.

11:19am UK, Wednesday 23 April 2014
The undersea drone is near the end of its first mission

• [EMAIL="?subject=Shared%20from%20Sky%20News:%20Missing%20Plane%3A%20Material%20Washes%20Ashore%20In%20Oz&body=Shared%20from%20Sky%20News:%20Missing%20Plane%3A%20Material%20Washes%20Ashore%20In%20Oz%20http://news.sky.com/story/1247611"]Email[/EMAIL]

Officials searching for the missing Malaysian Airlines plane say material has washed ashore off the coast of Western Australia.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) is now examining photographs of the objects, which have been secured by police in the region, to establish whether they are linked to flight MH370.
Authorities said the images had also been passed to investigators in Malaysia.
Relatives are urging governments not to give up the search The development came after Australia pledged to keep searching for the plane despite no sign of wreckage after almost seven weeks.
Bad weather is continuing to hamper the search with aircraft grounded for the second day due to heavy rain, low clouds and rough seas.
An undersea drone is nearing the end of its first full mission and Australian PM Tony Abbott says the search strategy may change if seabed scans taken by the US Navy drone fails to find a trace of MH370, which vanished on March 8 with 239 people on board.
The deep search covers an area where sonar equipment picked up a signal "We may well re-think the search but we will not rest until we have done everything we can to solve this mystery," he said.
"The only way we can get to the bottom of this is to keep searching the probable impact zone until we find something or until we have searched it as thoroughly as human ingenuity allows at this time."
The Bluefin-21 drone is a key component in the search after the detection of audio signals, or "pings", believed to be from the plane's black box flight .
Relatives are asking Mr Hussein to investigate old media reports The search co-ordination centre said the robotic submarine had so far covered more than 80% of the 120 square mile (310 square kilometres) seabed search zone off the Australian west coast, creating a three-dimensional sonar map of the ocean floor, but failing to find anything of interest.
The 2.8 mile (4.5-kilometre) deep search area is a circle 12 miles (20 km) wide around an area where sonar equipment picked up a signal on April 8 consistent with a plane's black boxes. The batteries powering those signals are now dead.
Both Australia and Malaysia are under growing pressure to show what lengths they are prepared to go to in order to give closure to the grieving families of those on board.
In a sign of the families' growing desperation for answers, a group purporting to be relatives of the missing flight's passengers wrote a letter to Malaysian defence minister Hishammuddin Hussein, urging the government to investigate old media reports that the plane landed in Kandahar, Afghanistan.
"It is high time that the government should start thinking out of the box by exploring and re-examining all leads, new and old," said the letter, published on Facebook on Wednesday.

Nonoperational

seal57 wrote: »

This was a well planned terrorist act, years in the making. Who, we do not know yet.
The plane is on land, not some small island like Diego Garcia. Where, none of us know, nor do the press. Just like those that think it wnet in the Ocean, just as many think it is on land, the old 50-50 guess. No right, no wrong in anyones opinion. But once the officials start floating it may be on land off the record, soon it becomes on the record.

I think a lot of people would be surprised that a lot of countries can work together, to save 250 or so people. Shutting down the ocean search after as it appears they are close to doing, says a lot. Sure they may send some planes up and possibly say they have to wait to get more submersible vehicles on station, but thats all smoke screen stuff.

Everyone has their opinion... no one is in a position to offer any sort of proof one way or the the other. We all know nothing and there is no way anyone should believe most of what has come out. But there are clues and some stories that let people use a best guest as to what they believe or what happened. There is no right and wrong either, just go to bed and say a prayer for the lost souls.

Me, I believe most of them are still alive and until someone can show otherwise, thats what i think. I believe they will be rescued.

Honestly, I just cannot understand the reasoning here. Plan a big elaborate terrorist operation. Have it so well planned that it goes off flawlessly and you land in a covert location. You keep the passengers alive for weeks and keep any knowledge of their existence from anybody....And then tell nobody about it?

In essence you are saying the terrorist operation was so well planned that public opinion is that it was not a terrorist operation at all! What's the point? Unless they are keeping the plane for a terrorist attack, in which case why keep the passengers alive?

fits

I just feel sorry for the families who are seeing all this conspiracy crap posted online and are understandably grasping at straws.

PropJoe10

Please God some of this wreckage washed up in Australia will be from the plane, although somehow I have the feeling its going to be another false dawn.

fits

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Please God some of this wreckage washed up in Australia will be from the plane, although somehow I have the feeling its going to be another false dawn.

its not looking likely. "the more we look at it the les excited we get " - Australian police

relaxed

the_monkey wrote: »

Back to the real story here .

They want to bring in a more powerful sonar system, same one that found the Titanic.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/australia-news-blog/video/2014/apr/22/william-kate-royal-tour-political-home-movie-australia-david-marr-video

The titanic was much bigger, they probably knew it went down in 2 big chunks, they had a fair idea where it went down, as opposed to a small plane which could have crashed in lots of places and may have blown to bits 7 or 8 miles in the sky, sending much smaller fragments everywhere.

You would wonder how much faith they have in finding it using this method?

Calina

relaxed wrote: »

The titanic was much bigger, they probably knew it went down in 2 big chunks, they had a fair idea where it went down, as opposed to a small plane which could have crashed in lots of places and may have blown to bits 7 or 8 miles in the sky, sending much smaller fragments everywhere.

You would wonder how much faith they have in finding it using this method?

The Titanic was a bit away from where they expected to find it. IF you look at Ballard's search box at the time the first part of the wreck was barely inside the area covered by their remote underwater over the entire search period. They found it just before they were about to give up for that particular trip as far as I remember.

Additionally, received wisdom at the time was that the wreck was more or less intact. I'm not absolutely sure where because there was a set of eyewitness drawings which suggest it might have broken up but they were dismissed at the time of the original enquiry. The drawings were reproduced in Ballard's book back in 1985 or 1986. You can see them here. http://phys.org/news/2012-03-icebergs-accomplice-moon-titanic.html

But it does hold that they had a general idea where the wreck was where as clues are severely limited here.

stuar

folbotcar wrote: »

The Diego Garcia plot falls apart with the smallest inspection and fails the simple 'why' test. Apply the same test to any theory and if it fails it, move on. Unless you are dopamine afflicted it's relatively obvious.

Maybe my dopamine acting up?
I believe the plane went missing as a direct result of war games taking place between US, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Indonesia and South Korea.
These wargames called Cobra Gold and Cope Tiger were being carried out in the exact area at exact time as MH370 vanished.
All of the above participants have a common enemy, China.
They couldn't take a chinese plane as it could spark a war, the next best thing is a plane half full of chinese people.
I speculate the above war games tested both the participants and regional enemies capabilities, technology, reactions.
Maybe the US were seeing how good their cloaking and cloning technology worked in real life.
To see if China could counteract it, if China demanded it's citizens released immediately from Diego Garcia it would show some of their capabilities.

All speculation on my part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdoUFDUh1vI

el tel

stuar wrote: »

Maybe my dopamine acting up?
I believe the plane went missing as a direct result of war games taking place between US, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Indonesia and South Korea.
These wargames called Cobra Gold and Cope Tiger were being carried out in the exact area at exact time as MH370 vanished.
All of the above participants have a common enemy, China.
They couldn't take a chinese plane as it could spark a war, the next best thing is a plane half full of chinese people.
I speculate the above war games tested both the participants and regional enemies capabilities, technology, reactions.
Maybe the US were seeing how good their cloaking and cloning technology worked in real life.
To see if China could counteract it, if China demanded it's citizens released immediately from Diego Garcia it would show some of their capabilities.

All speculation on my part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdoUFDUh1vI

DO you really believe that? Those are the rambings of a nut job.

stuar

el tel wrote: »

DO you really believe that? Those are the rambings of a nut job.

Stranger things have happened. Ever heard of Operation Northwoods?
China is racheting up it's military capabilities, claiming sea rights, fishing rights, islands, and threatening anybody who gets in their way.
It also explains the Malaysian military total c0ck-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWFepAwrZEc

Exhibit A:
China’s military vulnerability revealed in search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370
China’s deployment for the search has stretched the supply lines and logistics of its rapidly expanding navy.
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1495034/chinas-military-vulnerability-revealed-search-malaysia-airlines-flight

folbotcar

Stuar, I'd be quicker to believe aliens took it away than believe that. It's funny though.

I much prefer my version. The Chinese did it themselves so they had an excuse to fly and sail to areas that would previously appear suspicious. I think I'll set up a website: www:chineseconspiracyMH370.com

As for the wreckage. Even if it turns out to from the 777. It will have been 'planted' by US Navy according to the usual suspects.

stuar

folbotcar wrote: »

Stuar, I'd be quicker to believe aliens took it away than believe that. It's funny though.

I much prefer my version. The Chinese did it themselves so they had an excuse to fly and sail to areas that would previously appear suspicious. I think I'll set up a website: www:chineseconspiracyMH370.com

As for the wreckage. Even if it turns out to from the 777. It will have been 'planted' by US Navy according to the usual suspects.

Not all conspiracies are theories, some are just conspiracies.

http://www.businessinsider.com/true-government-conspiracies-2013-12

If any of these were suggested at the time, whoever suggesting them would also be considered a nutjob, sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

Read number 5 on the list:

5. Military leaders reportedly planned terrorist attacks in the U.S. to drum up support for a war against Cuba.

In 1962, the joint chiefs-of-staff approved Operation Northwoods, a covert plan to create support for a war in Cuba that would oust communist leader Fidel Castro.
Declassified government documents show considerations included: host funerals for "mock-victims," "start rumors (many)," and "blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba." They even suggested somehow pinning John Glenn's potential death, should his rocket explode, on communists in Cuba.
The advisors presented the plan to President Kennedy's Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, according to investigative journalist James Bamford's book, "Body of Secrets." We don't know whether McNamara immediately refused, but a few days later, Kennedy told Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, the plan's poo-bah, that the U.S. would never use overt force to take Cuba.
A few months later, Lemnitzer lost his position.
"There really was a worry at the time about the military going off crazy and they did, but they never succeeded, but it wasn't for lack of trying," Bamford told ABC News.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/true-government-conspiracies-2013-12#ixzz2zj7Ye6mH