Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

SpaceTime

That's the big worry I would have, this will suddenly turn into a 'national pride' issue and the investigation will be hampered.

I also doubt that many countries in the region will be very open to Chinese investigators who will most likely be very much there for all the right reasons and trying to be as helpful as possible.

And, you'll have issues where China and some others may be very wary of American and possibly British or other European investigators too who will undoubtably get involved. Boeing being the plane manufacturer, Rolls Royce being the engine maker and you may find other European countries may have been involved in avionics or anything else or might just be offering help.

Hopefully this isn't the way it's going to pan out, but I have my doubts that it will be as corporative and friendly as people might think.

---

I definitely wouldn't write off the possibility that a phone may be still working on board though or that it may have floated off somewhere. There are quite a few explanations to a ringing phone (as outlined in my previous post) and there are quite a few models of smart phone that have appeared in recent months that are water-resistant and can quite happily work while dropped into a pint of beer, so they'd probably survive for a day or two in the sea.

The likelihood of a phone surviving and possibly floating away in hand luggage or something and ending up in GSM coverage isn't THAT implausible. It could quite conceivably work if it's water resitent or of its in an air pocket in some container.

At the very least they should take the number, call the phone and see if the story adds up and if it is ringing, trace its location. It's a fairly trivial matter to find out what transmitter last picked it up and if it helps the investigation, it would be a good thing and really isn't a massive deal to do.

eamonhonda

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's the big worry I would have, this will suddenly turn into a 'national pride' issue and the investigation will be hampered.

I also doubt that many countries in the region will be very open to Chinese investigators who will most likely be very much there for all the right reasons and trying to be as helpful as possible.

And, you'll have issues where China and some others may be very wary of American and possibly British or other European investigators too who will undoubtably get involved. Boeing being the plane manufacturer, Rolls Royce being the engine maker and you may find other European countries may have been involved in avionics or anything else or might just be offering help.

Hopefully this isn't the way it's going to pan out, but I have my doubts that it will be as corporative and friendly as people might think.

---

I definitely wouldn't write off the possibility that a phone may be still working on board though or that it may have floated off somewhere. There are quite a few explanations to a ringing phone (as outlined in my previous post) and there are quite a few models of smart phone that have appeared in recent months that are water-resistant and can quite happily work while dropped into a pint of beer, so they'd probably survive for a day or two in the sea.

The likelihood of a phone surviving and possibly floating away in hand luggage or something and ending up in GSM coverage isn't THAT implausible. It could quite conceivably work if it's water resitent or of its in an air pocket in some container.

At the very least they should take the number, call the phone and see if the story adds up and if it is ringing, trace its location. It's a fairly trivial matter to find out what transmitter last picked it up and if it helps the investigation, it would be a good thing and really isn't a massive deal to do.

You either watch to much, or should start writing your own films!

SpaceTime

eamonhonda wrote: »

You either watch to much, or should start writing your own films!

I didn't personally attack you. Please do not personally attack me on a forum.
I've reported your post.


What's the big deal with checking out a possibility?

The phone quite conceivably could be in coverage. GSM signals can carry quite a long distance from costal transmitters and some phones are waterproof. The area is also relatively peppered with islands. Quite a few current phones, including some very popular models like the Sony Xperia Z are waterproof and they could be in a dry air pocket.

It's a simple matter of reporting an investigator checking with the mobile phone company to find out if the report is useful or not.

I certainly wouldn't write it off as utter nonsense until it was checked out.

Kavs8

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's the big worry I would have, this will suddenly turn into a 'national pride' issue and the investigation will be hampered.

I also doubt that many countries in the region will be very open to Chinese investigators who will most likely be very much there for all the right reasons and trying to be as helpful as possible.

And, you'll have issues where China and some others may be very wary of American and possibly British or other European investigators too who will undoubtably get involved. Boeing being the plane manufacturer, Rolls Royce being the engine maker and you may find other European countries may have been involved in avionics or anything else or might just be offering help.

Hopefully this isn't the way it's going to pan out, but I have my doubts that it will be as corporative and friendly as people might think.

---

I definitely wouldn't write off the possibility that a phone may be still working on board though or that it may have floated off somewhere. There are quite a few explanations to a ringing phone (as outlined in my previous post) and there are quite a few models of smart phone that have appeared in recent months that are water-resistant and can quite happily work while dropped into a pint of beer, so they'd probably survive for a day or two in the sea.

The likelihood of a phone surviving and possibly floating away in hand luggage or something and ending up in GSM coverage isn't THAT implausible. It could quite conceivably work if it's water resitent or of its in an air pocket in some container.

At the very least they should take the number, call the phone and see if the story adds up and if it is ringing, trace its location. It's a fairly trivial matter to find out what transmitter last picked it up and if it helps the investigation, it would be a good thing and really isn't a massive deal to do.

Indeed look everything is possible at this stage, very likely the passenger left the phone behind IMO.

GarIT

I can rule out the phone working underwater from a telecommunications point of view. It is extremely difficult for phone signals to travel through water, Even if you were a couple of meters from a mast underwater you wouldn't get a signal. For a phone to be working it would have to be within about 10 km of a mast and in less than a metre of water.

eamonhonda

SpaceTime wrote: »

I didn't personally attack you. Please do not personally attack me on a forum.
I've reported your post.


What's the big deal with checking out a possibility?

The phone quite conceivably could be in coverage. GSM signals can carry quite a long distance from costal transmitters and some phones are waterproof. The area is also relatively peppered with islands. Quite a few current phones, including some very popular models like the Sony Xperia Z are waterproof and they could be in a dry air pocket.

It's a simple matter of reporting an investigator checking with the mobile phone company to find out if the report is useful or not.

I certainly wouldn't write it off as utter nonsense until it was checked out.

Its a crazy long shot, the phone would never get signal underwater and a good chance 100km+ from a mast.

And lol at your personal attack comment. Obviously just rising you how someone could find offence it I have no idea.

billie1b

The Malaysians have asked for the Thai navy to shift its focus away from the the south China Sea and Gulf of Thailand and to start a search in the Andaman Sea. The debris found believed to be part of the door and tail has been confirmed not to be part of the missing aircraft according to CNN.

A Primal Nut

I don't think the authorities are withholding information. They just want to be sure of facts before release it to the public, otherwise they look like idiots if they say what they think and it turns out to be wrong. And how can they be sure of facts before the plane and black box are found?

People need to be patient.

brandon_flowers

There is no chance of a phone ringing underwater out at sea. Zero chance.

SpaceTime

eamonhonda wrote: »

Its a crazy long shot, the phone would never get signal underwater and a good chance 100km+ from a mast.

And lol at your personal attack comment. Obviously just rising you how someone could find offence it I have no idea.

It's a crazy long shot, but who knows..

GSM in absolutely ideal conditions e.g. a bag floating on the surface of water and a tower on the edge of a coast could pick up a signal 40km away and certainly enough to initiate ringing or carry SMS traffic. Carrying out a conversation or running GPRS data would be another thing entirely. Ringing doesn't actually require anything other than signalling information to be sent. Transmitting voice or data traffic over that kind of distance could be very problematic / impossible. SMS however, for example could potentially work and the device could be pinging a mobile tower.
3G can actually carry further if used on lower frequencies. Europe's a bad example as 2100MHz is awful for signal propagation.
4G LTE on say 800MHz can also carry serious distances (much further than GSM in theory) and there are very developed LTE networks in that part of the world (a few years ahead of Europe in many cases).

All I was saying is that a floating piece of luggage or perhaps a detached part of an overhead bin with a phone inside may have survived and could be floating on the surface of the water.

Yes, it's a long shot but no, I don't think I deserved to basically be told I'm some kind of movie-writing fantasist !

Most likely it's a phone left behind or someone who's forwarding calls back to their office / home or something. But, I still wouldn't 100% rule it out.

I've picked up GSM signals way off the coast from both France and Ireland. They're often unusable but the phone was able to momentarily register on the network and the phone may not be underwater, it could be bobbing along the surface in a bag.

It won't matter in a few hours anyway as none of those devices will hold a charge beyond 24h.

fits

O read somewhere that the airline checked out that phone and it didn't ring. Dunno how true that is like everything else I've read all day.

Unreal that this flight has disappeared without a trace! its not like the mid Atlantic there...

andy_g

Guys and Gals play nice or do not play at all. If you wish to discuss the missing aircraft please do so.

If you want to continue to be uncivil with each other there will be bans/infractions or worst case closure of the thread.

The last part we do not wish to do but if you cant discuss it like adults then we can remove the toys like you are children.

The ball is in your court.

Kavs8

A Primal Nut wrote: »

I don't think the authorities are withholding information. They just want to be sure of facts before release it to the public, otherwise they look like idiots if they say what they think and it turns out to be wrong. And how can they be sure of facts before the plane and black box are found?

People need to be patient.

I'm sorry but from reviewing accidents for years now, I think I've noticed a pattern when aircraft crash in Asia with the exceptions of China and South Korea who's investigations are exemplary - Thankfully the Chinese, Boeing, NTSB, FBI and Interpol are involved so far.

SpaceTime

Is the radar coverage particularly poor on that route?

I'm amazed they were able to just vanish like that when they were seemingly still quite close to land. If it were the middle of the ocean, it would make more sense.

brandon_flowers

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/missing-mas-plane/story/missing-malaysia-airlines-plane-mas-tells-relatives-mh370-pass

Second last paragraph.

Kavs8

SpaceTime wrote: »

Is the radar coverage particularly poor on that route?

I'm amazed they were able to just vanish like that when they were seemingly still quite close to land. If it were the middle of the ocean, it would make more sense.

It has been upgraded to secondary radar area, but when the transponder goes offline they lose all information - Primary radar will still track a blip of the aircraft if it is flying - however in this case the plane simply disappeared signifying a catastrophic event has taken place.

Sully

billie1b wrote: »

The Malaysians have asked for the Thai navy to shift its focus away from the the south China Sea and Gulf of Thailand and to start a search in the Andaman Sea. The debris found believed to be part of the door and tail has been confirmed not to be part of the missing aircraft according to CNN.

The Guardian haven't updated their story which uses the AFP News agency as their source, who quoted an official at the National Committee for Search and Rescue. That official said the parts won't be in identified until the morning.

Conflicting media reports, which is a nightmare!

SpaceTime

It just seems really odd that they're having such a hard time finding a debris field. It's a pretty large, modern aircraft and it would have so much plastic and other lighter than water material on board, that if it broke up, large amounts of it couldn't sink anyway.

Landing intact, or semi-intact on the water surface and then sinking more like a ship going down is a possibility, but it would still seem relatively remote.

It's kinda more like trying to find a maritime accident site than a typical airliner crash.

Kavs8

SpaceTime wrote: »

It just seems really odd that they're having such a hard time finding a debris field. It's a pretty large, modern aircraft have so much plastic and other lighter than water material on board, that if it broke up, large amounts of it couldn't sink anyway.

Landing intact, or semi-intact on the water surface and then sinking is a possibility, but it would still seem relatively remote.

It's almost more like what you'd expect with a ship.

Indeed when it is found there will be a lot of wreckage but they simply may be looking in the wrong area. I'm sorry but people who believe the aircraft landed on the OCEAN intact and then sank are smoking something.

No plane in history has done so successfully - US1549 which landed on a RIVER did so in one of the most populous cities in the world in broad daylight having suffered double engine failure at a low altitude.

The two can't be compared.

GarIT

SpaceTime wrote: »

Landing intact, or semi-intact on the water surface and then sinking more like a ship going down is a possibility, but it would still seem relatively remote.

Radar had it at 35,000 feet, then gone. If it took any more than a couple of seconds to go from 35,000 feet to sea level the radar would have picked up its decent.

Highflyer13

Phones ringing, zero communication from flight, busy shipping area, realitively small search area of shallow dept, lack of information from the government, huge airliner, clear weather, fake passports, im not a conspiracy theorist but i am totally baffled. Just not adding up for me. The longer the search drags on the stranger it gets.

Kavs8

To be fair if some of you were here in June 2009, it was 4 days before anything was found and after a week before they found the tail, two years before the black boxes were then finally recovered.

A map even in a very busy shipping channel doesn't do justice to the search area that exists, it might be many more days yet.

The One Who Knocks

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Phones ringing

Singular*

Highflyer13 wrote: »

zero communication from flight

Another pilot made contact before it went off the radar

Highflyer13 wrote: »

busy shipping area

Which area would that be?

Highflyer13 wrote: »

realitively small search area of shallow dept

See above

Highflyer13 wrote: »

lack of information from the government,

Press Conferences maybe?

Highflyer13 wrote: »

lfake passports

A common occurrence in these parts

Highflyer13 wrote: »

huge airliner, clear weather,

Yep, that's about it.

Kavs8

The One Who Knocks wrote: »

Singular*



Another pilot made contact before it went off the radar



Which area would that be?



See above



Press Conferences maybe?




A common occurrence in these parts



Yep, that's about it.

The information about that pilot talking to MH370 is unconfirmed, MAS said so at a press conference just after 5am this morning.

funtime93

I'm no expert in this field but if they have established that there were stolen passports on some passengers why were they allowed on the plane?They obviously didn't know they were stolen until after the plane took off but with all the security they have in place that should not have been allowed to happen.Very hard on the families all the same,just hope they get closure of some sort.

SpaceTime

They either didn't check passport numbers at all or, they checked them against an out of date database.

Remember, outside of North American and European routes, security may not necessarily be as tight. We're relatively fixated on security.

Calina

I think the era of 24 hour news has caused a great deal of lack of practicality in understanding the reality on the ground/water. It's one thing to have a reasonable idea where the plane went from 35000 feet to something else but it's not a vertical drop, and for all that it's reasonably quick to get there via air, surface vehicles will take a bit longer in the real world. They are most likely to pick up debris and have some chance of identifying it.

So the need for instant feedback, however understandable, will never be met and it leads to this crazy situation where news gets recycled and recycled and recycled causing confusion. The phone story is one example; I'm also somewhat dubious of contact with another aircraft to be honest.

@funtime - as I understand it, the fact that the passports were stolen was identified after the flight was lost purely because two people in question made it clear that although they appeared on the passenger list, they were not on the plane. As to why that might have happened; that's another question.

The One Who Knocks

Kavs8 wrote: »

The information about that pilot talking to MH370 is unconfirmed, MAS said so at a press conference just after 5am this morning.

Unconfirmed for now,

fits

Kavs8 wrote: »

To be fair if some of you were here in June 2009, it was 4 days before anything was found and after a week before they found the tail, two years before the black boxes were then finally recovered.

A map even in a very busy shipping channel doesn't do justice to the search area that exists, it might be many more days yet.

there have been a lot of technological developments since 2009. I can go out for a run and have my route mapped to the metre through my phone. GPS units are commonplace and cheap. Lots of hikers and sailors have satellite phones. And yet a massive airliner can disappear without a trace?

No excuse for it.

billie1b

Sully wrote: »

The Guardian haven't updated their story which uses the AFP News agency as their source, who quoted an official at the National Committee for Search and Rescue. That official said the parts won't be in identified until the morning.

Conflicting media reports, which is a nightmare!

Yeah, same as with any story, the media will print whatever it can just to get the views and sales, although saying that CNN have been pretty spot on since the story broke. Sky News are being very quiet, which is unusual as they'd usually have full stories with hours og coverage on it. Also agree with the Guardian, its their updates and CNN's that i'm mostly going by.