Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

EI-DOR

Don't know how reliable Yahoo News is!

A Chinese family claimed they had successfully reached the mobile phone of a passenger on board the flight, which is still missing after it lost contact with air traffic controllers on Saturday.
A video clip of a man dialling the number of his elder brother was shown on a Beijing Television's news bulletin. The call got connected, but no one picked up.
The man, who did not give his name, spoke to reporters at a Malaysia Airlines briefing in Beijing, and claimed that he made a total of three calls, but no one answered.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/family-chinese-passenger-missing-mas-flight-says-mobile-000308392.html

dees99

Dontfadeaway wrote: »

Found this

After a while, [Dr. Francisco Sarmento, the doctor who presided over the Flight 447 autopsies], flipped off the projector and pushed away from the table in his chair. "Ninety percent of the passengers had fractures in the arms and legs," he said. "Many of them also had trauma in the chest, in the abdomen, in the cranium. We didn't find anybody burned." He leaned forward in his seat and wrapped his arms around his knees. "They were like this," he said, holding the crash position and looking into my eyes. Then he sat up quickly and held his hand flat above the table. "When they hit," he said, slamming it down, "fractures. I believe the pilot tried to land in the water. This is consistent with the fractures. But when the bodies arrived, the lungs were already in a state of decomposition. We didn't have conditions to see if anyone drowned." This hung in the air for a moment as I considered what he was suggesting. "So it's possible that some of them were still alive?" I asked. Sarmento nodded. "Most died on impact," he said. "Some could have survived."

I don't want to go to bed now after reading that.

Jack1985

dees99 wrote: »

I don't want to go to bed now after reading that.

I know he is qualified doctor but the AF447 flight hit the ocean in excess of 300kts which is about 555 km/h - I doubt any person would be alive with that sort of impact especially as the momentum from it would be upward (the plane hit the ocean almost horizontal).

The phone-call to a passenger on-board is very creepy, I don't know maybe the phone is intact in luggage? or maybe they simply left it behind, who knows at this stage.

dees99

Jack1985 wrote: »

I know he is qualified doctor but the AF447 flight hit the ocean in excess of 300kts which is about 555 km/h - I doubt any person would be alive with that sort of impact especially as the momentum from it would be upward (the plane hit the ocean almost horizontal).

The phone-call to a passenger on-board is very creepy, I don't know maybe the phone is intact in luggage? or maybe they simply left it behind, who knows at this stage.

I'd say its in a suitcase, I'm sure plenty of them would be waterproof nowadays, or trapped in an air pocket. I personally doubt that they are going to find anything in the latest location. Surely there would be tons of rubbish and parts of the plane everywhere.

All the countries involved now and all the technology, how is it possible that they have not located it by now?

Is it possible to make a plane disappear from all radar? If you really wanted it to?

Jack1985

Is it possible to make a plane disappear from all radar? If you really wanted it to?

Looking at posts on PPRuNe, it seems when the transponder which can be turned off in the flight deck and when ATC are using whats called secondary radar means all information and the radar blip of the aircraft disappears. However on whats called primary radar I understand the aircraft would still show up as a blip until it is no longer airborne or has gone under radar coverage which I believe is a 1,000ft? Could be wrong in the last part.

Malaysia Airlines have just tweeted the following;

''As the day starts search & rescue operations continue to locate MH370. Our thoughts are with those involved as we wait for further updates.''

They have also updated their logo to completely gray in honor of the believed victims, indeed the later part of there tweet really brings it home, the families are now into there 3rd day already. I hope to hear good news in the morning, just hoping the families finally get the information they need.

shamrock55

Why do we even have passports these days, why dont they just use retina scanning, its not like someone is gonna steal the eye outta your head and pop it in theirs, or fingerprint scans, i just cant believe in this day and age we are still useing a bit of paper with a photoe on it.

dees99

:rolleyes:

shamrock55 wrote: »

Why do we even have passports these days, why dont they just use retina scanning, its not like someone is gonna steal the eye outta your head and pop it in theirs, or fingerprint scans, i just cant believe in this day and age we are still useing a bit of paper with a photoe on it.

Maybe you should start a new thread and ask that very question?

shamrock55

dees99 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Maybe you should start a new thread and ask that very question?

it might be relevant to this thread if as suspected these two people with the stolen passports have anything to do with it

sully2010

shamrock55 wrote: »

Why do we even have passports these days, why dont they just use retina scanning, its not like someone is gonna steal the eye outta your head and pop it in theirs, or fingerprint scans, i just cant believe in this day and age we are still useing a bit of paper with a photoe on it.

I don't know about you but there's some things I would prefer to not give away to "authorities" ie my internals of my eyes. Theres enough privacy invasion as there is at the moment, NSA, Google you name it. If border authorities did their jobs re passport control this would never happen and it seems the speculation is veering more towards terrorism now but silly to speculate on anything at this stage.

EI-DOR

Indeed. Immigration investigation taking place it seems!

An internal investigation on the Immigration Department has commenced following reports that two passengers were using stolen passports to board the missing Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH370.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/internal-probe-immigration-department-says-home-minister-010356860.html

Jack1985

I've got my hands on the flight-plan for the flight - It seem's MH370 got as far as IGARI before disappearing (highlighted below), before being handed over to Vietnamese airspace by Malaysia ATC;

DCT PIBOS R208 IKUKO R208 IGARI M765 BITOD L637 TSN W1 BMT W12 PCA G221 BUNTA A1 IKELA P901 IDOSI DCT CH DCT BEKOL A461 YIN A461 VYK

REG/9MMRO OPR/MAS

Still nothing and its now 10:27am in Malaysia.

A Primal Nut

Five Lamps wrote: »

Imagine that - as asian looking person with an Italian passport. Surely that could never happen.

Yeah but they'd have caucasian faces in their passport. So it's an asian looking person with an Italian passport with a caucasian face on it. So yeah, shouldn't happen.

I would speculate that they probably weren't part of a terrorist organisation, whom you would expect to be more organised, and have passports more closely matching the individuals who would use them.

Thrill

Chinese warship Mianyang arrives in suspected site of missing Malaysian plane


Vietnam says searchers cannot find rectangular object thought to be door from missing Malaysia Airlines 777 jet

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/air-force-chief-malaysia-jet-may-have-turned-back

A Primal Nut

Someone was asking about Malaysian Politics....just to say that authorities in this part of the world are often defensive when it comes to Western Journalists "coming over and acting like they are superior" by, as they might see it "asking questions that make Malaysia look bad in comparison to the West" so it's normal for authorities there to react defensively towards western journalists. So I wouldn't read anything into it.

Also regarding the debate about location technology, this is from the WSJ article:

"Never have I seen an aircraft losing control and losing all communication," said Mark Martin of aviation consultancy Martin Consulting. Even in the crash of an Air France flight in the Atlantic Ocean in 2009, the emergency beacon directed rescuers to the site of impact, though strong currents dispersed the debris across a wide area.

For whatever reason, the emergency beacons are not advertising their location, possibly because they burst into pieces in the sky, which, I believe, would make the debate about which location technologies should be installed on the plane irrelevant.

sopretty

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Something was asking about Malaysian Politics....just to say that authorities in this part of the world are often defensive when it comes to Western Journalists "coming over and acting like they are superior" by, as they might see it "asking questions that make Malaysia look bad in comparison to the West" so it's normal for authorities there to react defensively towards western journalists. So I wouldn't read anything into it.

Also regarding the debate about location technology, this is from the WSJ article:

"Never have I seen an aircraft losing control and losing all communication," said Mark Martin of aviation consultancy Martin Consulting. Even in the crash of an Air France flight in the Atlantic Ocean in 2009, the emergency beacon directed rescuers to the site of impact, though strong currents dispersed the debris across a wide area.

For whatever reason, the emergency beacons are not advertising their location, possibly because they burst into pieces in the sky, which, I believe, would make the debate about which location technologies should be installed on the plane irrelevant.

So it seems clear now that we are talking about a massive explosion of the plane in the sky? Would that be fair to assume?

bladebrew

I'm following this story and have seen various references to AF447, but after reading about that I have a question, why didn't the pilots on AF447 not radio anyone for help or send a mayday? They had over 3 minutes but there was no contact, did the not believe they would crash?
I hate stories like this as I'm in Australia it was 3 flights here and I don't like flying:(

irishmover

Malaysia media conference on now stating that they can confirm they are yet to find any debris in the 50km radius they are searching in. No door has been found either. Oil samples have not been fully analysed. They're still completely as puzzled as anyone else by what happened.

So nothing positive at all comes from this but atleast they're keeping the world informed.

A Primal Nut

sopretty wrote: »

So it seems clear now that we are talking about a massive explosion of the plane in the sky? Would that be fair to assume?

Possibly but as far as I know, the evidence is still quite thin. It's an explanation that fits some of the facts that we know; put it that way.

bladebrew wrote: »

I'm following this story and have seen various references to AF447, but after reading about that I have a question, why didn't the pilots on AF447 not radio anyone for help or send a mayday? They had over 3 minutes but there was no contact, did the not believe they would crash?
I hate stories like this as I'm in Australia it was 3 flights here and I don't like flying:(

This is a really good article, which explains what was going on in the cockpit in the final moments:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/9231855/Air-France-Flight-447-Damn-it-were-going-to-crash.html

The time between realising they had a serious problem and the plane crashing was quite short. And basically there was a lot of panic and arguing in the cockpit. The captain actually realised what the first officer was doing wrong and tried to change it, but at that stage it was too late.

Basically there wasn't a whole lot anyone else could to do help them, being in the middle of the atlantic ocean, so they were focusing all their energies on trying to stabilise the plane, rather than sending for a Mayday which probably wasn't going to be much use (other than to crash investigators, which isn't exactly the priority of the pilots at that point).

irishmover

Question was asked about some Chinese organisation called "Matu"? or "Matil"?? And that they're claiming responsibility for the crash.. The speaker then evaded the question.

Havent heard anything about some Chinese organisation before this, anyone know anything about that?

Edit: Just found it. Chinese Martyrs' Brigade. Sounds a bit far fetched.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1001440/pg1

Thrill

Malaysia Aviation Regulator:

Investigators have not ruled any scenario out because the cause of Flight MH370's disappearance remains unknown. Hijacking not ruled out in disappearance.

5 passengers had checked in for Flight 370 but did not board, Malaysian officials say their luggage was removed before take-off.

eatmyshorts

Good morning all....well that was an interesting catch up read of the overnight posts!:D

An awful lot of drivel being posted at times. Quoting from the Daily Mirror???....Jayyysuuuus...:eek:

Here are the FACTS:
1) The plane took off.
2) It didn't land at its intended destination.

Here are the probables:
1) It crashed somewhere near the last known contact over the Gulf of Thailand.

Everything else is pure conjecture and speculation. Some of which is laughable at best.


The 24 hour rolling news machine requires information to be kept happy. When it doesn't get it, it regurgitates, speculates, supposes and sometimes downright lies.

Dodgy passports are common in that part of the world.
Air India Express crash

bladebrew wrote: »

I'm following this story and have seen various references to AF447, but after reading about that I have a question, why didn't the pilots on AF447 not radio anyone for help or send a mayday? They had over 3 minutes but there was no contact, did the not believe they would crash?

What benefit is that going to make? Is the person at the other end of the radio going to be able to help you in any way? Short answer...NO.
It's an old adage, but is still true....Aviate Navigate Communicate. If I'm dealing with a problem onboard, especially a serious one, then communicating with ATC comes well down my list of priorities.
So, to all of those who keep questioning the lack of a Mayday call, it's not unusual and I would read very little into it at all.


Pressing on to the issue of trackers.
The 777 has 3 Inertial Reference Units and 2 GPS for navigation. Any of these 5 will provide a highly accurate real time positioning service.
Most commercial aircraft are now ADS-B equipped. This uses these position sources to send real time position updates to ATC, airline company control centres and of course to sites like FR24 and FlightAware.
However, not all ATC centres can track it, and the aircraft can be dispatched with ADS u/s into some airspace areas.
However, when the system stops broadcasting due to an aircraft breaking up in mid air, only the last known position is available. The debris field could be 10's of miles away from that position by the time it reaches the surface. Add into that winds and sea currents, and that suddenly becomes a very large area indeed.

Someone else asked about the ELT's.
The 777 has 2 installed, one at the front and one at the rear. These are activated either manually or automatically when in contact with water or when subjected to in excess of a pre-set G-loading. They will then broadcast a homing signal on pre-set frequencies.

Why isn't the FDR data uploaded in real time to a land based data centre is a common question asked.
Well, it's a reasonable proposition, would be useful in certain scenarios, and probably not too difficult to do.
However, it all comes down to cost. How much will it cost the airline to install the equipment? How much to maintain it? How much to certify it with the regulatory bodies? That's a sizeable amount of dedicated bandwidth that's needed to be broadcast, sometimes via satcom.

The operator will look to pass all of those costs onto the passenger. And in todays world where 95% of people book their airline ticket based on who is the cheapest, therein lies the problem.

Aviation is an expensive business, sometime bordering on prohibitively expensive. Yes, you may have full GPS tracking functionality available in your cheap smartphone, but that won't cut it in the aviation world. Everything has to be tested, trialled, certified, maintained and operated according to strict regulations.
I can nip down to the local electronics shop and by a 32" LCD panel for 200 Euro, but an 8" square LCD display for a 777 cockpit costs in the region of $40,000. Metal rivets are a Euro a bag in B&Q, but a couple of hundred each if they are aerospace ones.


I don't claim to know everything. Anybody in this industry who does is treading dangerously. 15 years of commercial flying, 9,000 hours total time, all but 200 of that in multi-engine jets, 5,500 widebody and 3,000 in the 777...and still learning something new everyday.

brandon_flowers

Great post eatmyshorts.

Why are people saying Asians carrying Caucasian passports is suspicious? Have they confirmed those passport carriers were Asian looking? Has anyone bothered to think of the obvious? European criminals using stolen European passports. There are places in Thailand where you can have a selection of hundreds of stolen passports available and the criminals just need to find one that looks a bit like them.

Edit: Some Malay minister quoted as saying they were Asian looking, no CCTV or photos however. Decides to take a pop at his government colleagues department in the same sentence. Not very helpful to be that blatantly critical after the fact.

irishmover

Three golden rules of flying. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order.

http://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn1-3-goldrules.pdf

Jack1985

Just turned on Sky News and a press conference has said the debris they spotted isn't belong to MH370, back to square one again it seems.

Why are people saying Asians carrying Caucasian passports is suspicious? Have they confirmed those passport carriers were Asian looking? Has anyone bothered to think of the obvious? European criminals using stolen European passports. There are places in Thailand where you can have a selection of hundreds of stolen passports available and the criminals just need to find one that looks a bit like them.

Not to be pedantic, but Interpol are ''very alarmed'' by the passports - I'm sure they have a reason to be.

brandon_flowers

Of course Interpol should be alarmed, criminals having free movement using stolen passports would be a big concern. However until I see some sort of photo proof I am sceptical two Asian looking gents rocked up to passport control with Luigi and Christian written on their passports. Certainly not after buying the tickets in Pattaya in cash.

Jack1985

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Of course Interpol should be alarmed, criminals having free movement using stolen passports would be a big concern. However until I see some sort of photo proof I am sceptical two Asian looking gents rocked up to passport control with Luigi and Christian written on their passports. Certainly not after buying the tickets in Pattaya in cash.

But you also have the FBI concerned something sinister has happened, I doubt they're worried by petty criminals tbh.

fits

brandon_flowers wrote: »

I am sceptical two Asian looking gents rocked up to passport control with Luigi and Christian written on their passports. Certainly not after buying the tickets in Pattaya in cash.

they were Asian in appearance however there are lots of European Asians with European names. :eek:

Lirange

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Of course Interpol should be alarmed, criminals having free movement using stolen passports would be a big concern. However until I see some sort of photo proof I am sceptical two Asian looking gents rocked up to passport control with Luigi and Christian written on their passports. Certainly not after buying the tickets in Pattaya in cash.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/fake-passports-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-reveal-flaw-in-airline-safety-20140310-hvgv0.html

Malaysia’s Home Minister Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the passengers were of Asian appearance and criticised border officials for allowing them through security check-points.

Thrill

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Everything else is pure conjecture and speculation. Some of which is laughable at best.

People are just trying to understand what happened. They are doing nothing the authorities aren't currently doing in that regard.

Some here have speculated it may have been terrorism, power loss, mid air disintegration etc. Unless someone has suggested alien abduction then I've seen nothing that has been speculated that is currently not being considered by those investigating the disappearance.

Ignorance about the technical details of the 777 is not surprising given that possibly no-one here pilots a 777 outside yourself.

EDIT: That aside, the tech stuff was enlightening.


.

A Primal Nut

fits wrote: »

they were Asian in appearance however there are lots of European Asians with European names. :eek:

What about the pictures on the passports? I suppose the immigration officer and airline check in and the person who checks the passport/boarding pass at the gate never checked the picture which I don't find completely hard to believe as countries like Malaysia tend to be more strict when people are entering than when they are leaving. But then again, they would have had to enter Malaysia from Thailand so it's somewhat surprising.

It's also hard to believe that they would have expected to get through all the other countries (China, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany were listed) without someone noticing that their passport picture is Caucasian. You would have though they would try to minimise the number of countries they need to fly through as much as possible, to minimise suspicion.