Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

Jack1985

Ah jesus lads, North Korea? Seriously? This the same crowd in there last attempt that saw there rocket break something like 5,000ft before flopping into the ocean. I wouldn't let them launch party balloons...

Anyway the US confirmed there were no flashes, they are constantly tracking North Korea.

2 stroke

I've read most of the posts on this tread (I did skip a few pages). My question regarding the stolen passports would be, is this the first time that these passports had been used since the time of their theft?

SpaceTime

NK is mostly a threat to aircraft in the Sea of Japan while firing off their stuff.

All talk no trousers when it comes to long-distance stuff, but they do keep trying .. which is all that would concern me as the technology could be lousy.

billie1b

mickdw wrote: »

Think it was caused by a cracked oil pipe.

I thought the engine exploded due to a missing turbine disc, it then three a load of shrapnel into the wing and disabled other systems. I could be getting it mixed up with something else though.

wil

Jack1985 wrote: »

As the previous B777 pilot posted a few pages back, the 777 have 3 of the most sophisticated trackers in the world on those aircraft. When you're tracking vechicles in the outback there not at the bottom of an ocean with all due respect.

Can they be switched off say in a hijacking scenario or would this be close to impossible?

Almost everything is speculation at the moment, and looks like nothing can be ruled in or out.
So a bit of a brain dump here.

Early on there was reports of interrupted contact by another pilot around the time it disappeared. I don't know if this was confirmed but they described mumbled communication, then lost contact which isn't unusual.
Any more details of this.

Speculation again, but considering this fairly un-investigated incident where both pilots almost lost consciousness before landing I will throw it in to the mix.
Wasn't there also a plane where everyone on board lost consciousness before it crashed, perhaps over the US?
And a recent Lufthansa plane landed in Dublin where the co-pilot was incapacitated by migraine.

It seems that all found debris and fuel slicks have been discounted as not from the plane. A possible plane part seen last night, now cant be found.
A little surprised there aren't lots of small fishing boats in that area, though perhaps closer to coast.

The stolen passports may be red herrings, perhaps a couple of illegal immigrants using a lesser controlled routed in to Europe. I'm presuming the photos were doctored, and if of reasonable quality undoubted get through customs. A fake Malaysian or Chinese one is more likely to be picked up by said authorities familiar with and access to their own national data.
I can see it as unlikely that officials will stop every non machine readable passport holder to type in their number, but when machine readable becomes the norm (as US demands) non readable exceptions wont hold up queues so much.

However an unnamed Malaysian official did say they have had a few apprehended attempts to bring explosives on planes.
Also they tend to play down links to AlQda even though there have some.

And a query about 5 people who checked in but didn't fly. Did their bags?

Another question, odd that little reference to spy satellites being used for search? I'd imagine there are a few Chinese ones over that area.
I guess they come under information not in the public domain.

ImDave

wil wrote: »

Wasn't there also a plane where everyone on board lost consciousness before it crashed, perhaps over the US?

I think that was the Helios Airways flight 522 en route to Athens.

SpaceTime

wil wrote: »

Another question, odd that little reference to spy satellites being used for search? I'd imagine there are a few Chinese ones over that area.
I guess they come under information not in the public domain.

They're not called 'spy' satellites for nothing
Information may 'come to the attention of authorities' based on an 'educated guess'.

Jack1985

wil wrote: »

Can they be switched off say in a hijacking scenario or would this be close to impossible?

The ones I'm referring to no, I'm referring to the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT).

The only tracker they could switch off would be the transponder, simple really - just a the flick of switch on the radio panel.

L1011

wil wrote: »

Wasn't there also a plane where everyone on board lost consciousness before it crashed, perhaps over the US?

Helios in Greece, but that plane was very much obvious on radar, etc after comms was lost. Also happened to Payne Stewart's private jet from memory, and again it was very obvious what was happening.

Simon Gruber Says

billie1b wrote: »

I thought the engine exploded due to a missing turbine disc, it then three a load of shrapnel into the wing and disabled other systems. I could be getting it mixed up with something else though.

It was a manufacturing defect in the disc that caused it to overspeed and eventually fail with such energy, pieces went through anything in it's way. It was lucky one didn't pierce the passenger cabin.

wil

Jack1985 wrote: »

The ones I'm referring to no, I'm referring to the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR), Flight Data Recorder (FDR) and the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT).

The only tracker they could switch off would be the transponder, simple really - just a the flick of switch on the radio panel.

Why would a transponder need to be switched off?

Are these locator signals on these recorders and what range do they have, I've heard about 1000m.

What about all long range telemetry signals relayed from the aircraft.
Can these be switched off or would a catastrophic event be the only way to interrupt them.

brandon_flowers

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

It was a manufacturing defect in the disc that caused it to overspeed and eventually fail with such energy, pieces went through anything in it's way. It was lucky one didn't pierce the passenger cabin.

The disc failure was a secondary event. The root cause was the oil leak which came as a result of the oil line failing under vibrations due to manufacturing defect.

Tigerandahalf

Very interesting image on the Mirror feed which shows the depth of the sea water around the potential crash scene. Mean depth is 45m and max depth is 80m. In comparison the Air France crashed into water with a depth of 3,900m.

Jack1985

wil wrote: »

Why would a transponder need to be switched off?

Are these locator signals on these recorders and what range do they have, I've heard about 1000m.

What about all long range telemetry signals relayed from the aircraft.
Can these be switched off or would a catastrophic event be the only way to interrupt them.

A hijacker would switch off a transponder as on what's known as secondary radar - it would make all information related to the flight thats available to ATC including altitude, heading, speed, the aircraft's route - all disappear as would the blip of the aircraft on radar. In 9/11 on all four hijacked flights, all transponders were turned off and ATC had to ask NORAD to track the flights on primary radar.

On Primary radar even with the transponder off, the flight would still be visible if still airborne.

The are no ranges as such for the CVR and FDR there is a device called a "pinger" in both, it is activated when the recorder is immersed in water. It transmits an acoustical signal on 37.5 KHz that can be detected with a special receiver. The beacon can transmit from depths down to 14,000 feet.

The ELT would broadcast an alarm on the emergency radio frequency 121.5 MHz although these devices are being phased out into new frequency 406 MHz, an ELT alarm gets louder the closer you are - here's an ELT alarm following the crash of a plane in the Detroit area;

Tigerandahalf

Jack1985 wrote: »

The ELT would broadcast an alarm on the emergency radio frequency 121.5 MHz although these devices are being phased out into new frequency 406 MHz, an ELT alarm gets louder the closer you are - here's an ELT alarm following the crash of a plane in the Detroit area;

And what is needed to pick up that ELT signal. Can an overflying plane pick up that signal and at what height?

Tigerandahalf

From the Mirror.......

"A senior police official has told Reuters that people armed with explosives and carrying false identity papers have tried to fly out of Kuala Lumpur in the past.

Investigators are still trying to identify two passengers who were on the missing plane with stolen passports.

The police official said: "We have stopped men with false or stolen passports and carrying explosives, who have tried to get past KLIA (airport) security and get on to a plane."

"There have been two or three incidents, but I will not divulge the details."

............"

Very hard to see how a large bomb could be brought on board. I presume they must be referring to something carried on the individual. Unless bags going through security were found to contain something and were removed.

wil

Jack1985 wrote: »

A hijacker would switch off a transponder as on what's known as secondary radar - it would make all information related to the flight thats available to ATC including altitude, heading, speed, the aircraft's route - all disappear as would the blip of the aircraft on radar. In 9/11 on all four hijacked flights, all transponders were turned off and ATC had to ask NORAD to track the flights on primary radar.

That still begs the question "Why would a transponder need to be switched off?"

The answer seems to be to facilitate a hijacker:eek:

Other than military/covert aircraft, cant see the reason for than on/off switch.

Jack1985

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

And what is needed to pick up that ELT signal. Can an overflying plane pick up that signal and at what height?

Read what I posted again, it broadcasts on the emergency radio frequency so any aircraft flying around the area would be listening in on 121.7Mhz just in case.

wil wrote: »

That still begs the question "Why would a transponder need to be switched off?"

The answer seems to be to facilitate a hijacker:eek:

Other than military/covert aircraft, cant see the reason for than on/off switch.

However, if the aircraft suffered a catastrophic failure which resulted in all communications ceasing as a result of that event, the transponder would be included in the communications that would be knocked out - So that is why there remains so many possibilities as to what happened to MH370 her passengers and crew.

KrakityJones

A Thai travel agent who booked the men with stolen passports onto the missing plane, has told the FT that the tickets were arranged with an “Iranian contact” on behalf of clients looking for cheap tickets to Europe.

Benjaporn Krutnait, owner of the Grand Horizon travel agency in Pattaya, Thailand, said the Iranian, a long-term business contact who she knew only as “Mr Ali”, first asked her to book cheap tickets to Europe for the two men on March 1. Ms Benjaporn initially reserved one of the men on a Qatar Airways flight and the other on Etihad.

But the tickets expired when Ms Benjaporn did not hear back from Mr Ali. When he contacted her again on Thursday, she rebooked the men on the Malaysia Airlines flight through Beijing because it was the cheapest available. Ms Benjaporn booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines via a code share arrangement.

A friend of Mr Ali paid Ms Benjaporn cash for the tickets, she said, adding that it was quite common for people to book tickets in Pattaya through middle men such as Mr Ali, who then take a commission.

The above was on the Guardian website - that seems a bit odd, both of the stolen passport guys booked on from the same place by the same 3rd party, and the fact they let the tickets expire when it was 2 separate flights.

Tigerandahalf

Jack1985 wrote: »

Read what I posted again, it broadcasts on the emergency radio frequency so any aircraft flying around the area would be listening in on 121.7Mhz just in case.

Does that not indicate that the plane didn't immediately crash after losing communication. If it had surely the ELT signal would have been picked up by now. I presume the only way for the ELT to be destroyed in mid air would be through a complete explosion of the aircraft, which there doesn't seem to be any indication of, or debris to back it up. If the plane broke up in mid air after an incident you would imagine the ELT would not have been damaged and would have fell to sea, and give off a signal. It seems that the plane travelled some distance after communication ended.

homerjay2005

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

From the Mirror.......

"A senior police official has told Reuters that people armed with explosives and carrying false identity papers have tried to fly out of Kuala Lumpur in the past.

Investigators are still trying to identify two passengers who were on the missing plane with stolen passports.

The police official said: "We have stopped men with false or stolen passports and carrying explosives, who have tried to get past KLIA (airport) security and get on to a plane."

"There have been two or three incidents, but I will not divulge the details."

............"

Very hard to see how a large bomb could be brought on board. I presume they must be referring to something carried on the individual. Unless bags going through security were found to contain something and were removed.

would they even need a bomb to cause a serious issue? surely theres a few they could have done that would bring down the plane.

eitherway, i dont think terrorism is at play here at all.

Jack1985

Does that not indicate that the plane didn't immediately crash after losing communication. If it had surely the ELT signal would have been picked up by now. I presume the only way for the ELT to be destroyed in mid air would be through a complete explosion of the aircraft, which there doesn't seem to be any indication of, or debris to back it up. If the plane broke up in mid air after an incident you would imagine the ELT would not have been damaged and would have fell to sea, and give off a signal. It seems that the plane travelled some distance after communication ended.

What?? Do you think the ELT would broadcast for the fun of it? The ELT only broadcasts when it detects a heavy impact (crash). ELT signal to be picked up means aircraft need to be flying near it. In nearly every accident I've seen at least 95% of cases for the CVR, FDR or ELT to be destroyed is rare, AF447 crash is testament to their strengths. You last statement, has no backing up I'm afraid. You really should try research aviation, its hard to have to go through all this information on what is an ''Aviation & Aircraft'' forum.

sopretty

KrakityJones wrote: »

A Thai travel agent who booked the men with stolen passports onto the missing plane, has told the FT that the tickets were arranged with an “Iranian contact” on behalf of clients looking for cheap tickets to Europe.

Benjaporn Krutnait, owner of the Grand Horizon travel agency in Pattaya, Thailand, said the Iranian, a long-term business contact who she knew only as “Mr Ali”, first asked her to book cheap tickets to Europe for the two men on March 1. Ms Benjaporn initially reserved one of the men on a Qatar Airways flight and the other on Etihad.

But the tickets expired when Ms Benjaporn did not hear back from Mr Ali. When he contacted her again on Thursday, she rebooked the men on the Malaysia Airlines flight through Beijing because it was the cheapest available. Ms Benjaporn booked the tickets through China Southern Airlines via a code share arrangement.

A friend of Mr Ali paid Ms Benjaporn cash for the tickets, she said, adding that it was quite common for people to book tickets in Pattaya through middle men such as Mr Ali, who then take a commission.

The above was on the Guardian website - that seems a bit odd, both of the stolen passport guys booked on from the same place by the same 3rd party, and the fact they let the tickets expire when it was 2 separate flights.

Sounds to me like they weren't too fussed about a particular flight or anything? Just sounds like two gangsters.

Thrill

China is adjusting satellites to help search for the missing plane.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/china-adjusts-satellites-aid-hunt-missing-jet-report-n48941?cid=sm_twitter_feed_world

Tigerandahalf

Look I know it is an aviation forum but most people reading this thread are ordinary people like myself who are just intrigued by the whole thing.

The fact that they are searching areas at the other side of Kuala Lumpur indicates that the plane could well have turned back and have flown for a considerable distance after all communication failed.
If that did happen how easy would it be for the crew to navigate the plane given that it is was nighttime.

highlydebased

Interesting, the scale of the search in comparison to the scale of that for AF447 which is the yellow circle



http://t.co/iaYMqwV4fs

wil

Thrill wrote: »

China is adjusting satellites to help search for the missing plane.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-jet/china-adjusts-satellites-aid-hunt-missing-jet-report-n48941?cid=sm_twitter_feed_world

so if I hadn't asked...

Anyway dog=me, bone=switch
Is there a technical reason the transponder on/off switch exists?
Surely a better alternative has been considered?

Jack1985

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Look I know it is an aviation forum but most people reading this thread are ordinary people like myself who are just intrigued by the whole thing.

The fact that they are searching areas at the other side of Kuala Lumpur indicates that the plane could well have turned back and have flown for a considerable distance after all communication failed.
If that did happen how easy would it be for the crew to navigate the plane given that it is was nighttime.

It doesn't indicate anything it just means they are increasing the search to cover all possible angles, they have no evidence of anything. The turn-back quickly was lost on a radar after the plane made a slight-turn, It could even just be because the plane was crashing at that point.

wil wrote: »

Is there a technical reason the transponder on/off switch exists?
Surely a better alternative has been considered?

The transponder is turned off after landing as it still displays on ATC radar screens, some airports require the transponder on during taxi for ground safety also some airports don't thats why there is a switch - It is off then during the turnaround until atc issues a new transponder code for the next sector and it would be turned on again if the airport requires it on during the taxi for departure or before entering the runaway before departure. Also there should be no concern about the switch as its the prevention of people unauthorised entering the flight deck that stops everything like that, listen there is also no conclusive evidence the aircraft was hijacked.

wil

highlydebased wrote: »

Interesting, the scale of the search in comparison to the scale of that for AF447 which is the yellow circle

http://t.co/iaYMqwV4fs

That seems to indicate something beyond the not having a single clue

billie1b

wil wrote: »

That seems to indicate something beyond the not having a single clue

No it doesn't mean they haven't a clue, its a big big area they have to search.
Example, fly up in a plane over land, at a certain point fire a bullet out the door, record the known position of where you shot the gun and now land and walk around looking for it. How long do you reckon it would take you to find it?