Malaysia Airlines flight MH370-Updates and Discussion

A Primal Nut

Animord wrote: »

I keep seeing this on twitter in the last few minutes. Clearly I have no idea it is true and will be verified.

BREAKING UPDATE: The data reporting system was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder was shut down at 1:21 a.m

If I understand correctly the final communication with KL ATC "All right, good night," was just before the transponder was shut down. So wouldn't he or someone at ATC have gotten an alert that the plane had stopped sending data 14 minutes before, that a crucial system had stopped working.Yet he didn't say anything.

How often would data be sent out normally?

Do people think the pilot would have noticed the problem? As far as I know every fault is alerted to the crew in the cockpit.

jescart

I tell ya, if I was in anyway involved with conspiracy or cover up on this scale, I think I'd rather hand myself in than go up against the army of internet forums analysing every detail with a fine toothcomb

Neeson

Was it an old plane?

ciarriaithuaidh

Apologies if this has already been posted, but David Soucie, former investigator with the FAA, was on CNN a few days ago and he reckons there was foul play for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LTn-Llflqo

This must be hell for the poor families. You would think that with things like this, the plane would be located by now at least.

A Primal Nut

Regarding all these posts about "Find My Phone" technology the airplane does have something similar - ADS-B. It detects the location via GPS and broadcasts it. But it appears it suffered the same faith as the secondary radar transponder - electrical fault, manual intervention, etc. It also disappeared.

Regarding monitoring people's phones location, that only works if the phone can pickup a mobile network or WiFi signal. As someone mentioned there often is WiFi on these planes but given that it didn't broadcast its location it either wasn't available on MH370 or it suffered the same faith as the other location broadcast technologies.

Finally it isn't going to pickup a mobile network signal at 35000 ft above the ocean moving at that speed. Even if it did fly back over land it would be moving too fast to register on a network so again not going to happen.

I know this has been discussed before but it keeps being asked so wanted to summarise what I know.

wil

so just to be clear, the plane is probably, and I wont even attempt to put a percentage to that, probably, somewhere here - WSJ latest

Mister Jingles

Neeson wrote: »

Was it an old plane?

12 years old give or take ?

A Primal Nut

Wow, big breakthrough if true.

WSJ are reporting that the plane pinged its location to the satellites over the course of five hours.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350.html

Worth checking out one of the author's twitter pages - some interesting tweets over the last few hours:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower

errlloyd

A scale of blame ladies and gentlemen.

1 Act of God
2 Accident
3 Poor maintenence
4 Pilot error
5 Criminal attack
6 Political terrorism
7 Government conspiracy

Where do you feel this falls on the scale. I am a 6.

irishmover

So the ability to "turn off" the transponder manually is due to doing so whilst on the ground taxiing? Is this the only reason for being able to turn it off?

3/4 planes in 9/11 were turned off manually. Surely there could have been an alternate system developed if the only reason to be able to turn off the transponder was whilst on the ground.

Thrill

irishmover wrote: »

So the ability to "turn off" the transponder manually is due to doing so whilst on the ground taxiing? Is this the only reason for being able to turn it off?

3/4 planes in 9/11 were turned off manually. Surely there could have been an alternate system developed if the only reason to be able to turn off the transponder was whilst on the ground.

Here.

All electronic equipment on an airplane can be turned off by pilots, including the transponder. This is a safety feature, so a device that short-circuits or overheats or otherwise malfunctions can be shut down before it does further harm.

irishmover

Thrill wrote: »

Here.

So it's impossible in a short or the like for a safety mechanism to trigger the transponder to off without human interaction?

Mint Sauce

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Wow, big breakthrough if true.

WSJ are reporting that the plane pinged its location to the satellites over the course of five hours.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304185104579437573396580350.html

Worth checking out one of the author's twitter pages - some interesting tweets over the last few hours:

https://twitter.com/jonostrower

Cant open the link, but is the the report in relation to Engine Data being sent to Rolls Royce? If so I think Air Malaysia has dismissed or denied it, or is this a new development.

A Primal Nut

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Cant open the link, but is the the report in relation to Engine Data being sent to Rolls Royce? If so I think Air Malaysia has dismissed or denied it, or is this a new development.

WSJ originally said it was Engine Data sent to Rolls Royce (no mention of location data). Malaysian Authorities denied it. WSJ then changed their story and said that the plane was actually sending satellite pings. Now they are saying those satellite pings include location, speed and altitude data, which is new information. It would be interesting to know if the speed is what would be expected for a cruising plane on autopilot.

Satellite Data Reveal Route of Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane
Jetliner 'Pinged' Satellites With Location, Altitude for Hours After Disappearance

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By JON OSTROWER, ANDY PASZTOR and JULIAN E. BARNES CONNECT
Updated March 13, 2014 8:43 p.m. ET
WSJ has confirmed that the pilot had the ability to manually turn off the transponder on Flight MH370. Why is the transponder so significant? WSJ's Jason Bellini has #TheShortAnswer.
Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU 0.00% ' missing jet transmitted its location repeatedly to satellites over the course of five hours after it disappeared from radar, people briefed on the matter said, as searchers zeroed in on new target areas hundreds of miles west of the plane's original course.

The satellites also received speed and altitude information about the plane from its intermittent "pings," the people said. The final ping was sent from over water, at what one of these people called a normal cruising altitude. They added that it was unclear why the pings stopped. One of the people, an industry official, said it was possible that the system sending them had been disabled by someone on board.

WSJ's Andy Pasztor has been reporting on Flight MH370 since it disappeared. Here he explains how a plane can still transmit "pings" that allow investigators to track it even after its main tracking systems — or transponders — are shut off.

The people, who included a military official, the industry official and others, declined to say what specific path the transmissions revealed. But the U.S. planned to move surveillance planes into an area of the Indian Ocean 1,000 miles or more west of the Malay peninsula where the plane took off, said Cmdr. William Marks, the spokesman for the U.S. Seventh Fleet.

He said the destroyer USS Kidd would move through the Strait of Malacca, on Malaysia's west coast, and stay at its northwest entrance. Malaysia, which is overseeing the search effort, directed Indian forces to a specific set of coordinates in the Andaman Sea, northwest of the Malay peninsula, an Indian official said Thursday. "There was no specified rationale behind looking in those areas, but a detailed list was provided late Wednesday evening," the Indian official said.

View Graphics

The automatic pings, or attempts to link up with satellites operated by Inmarsat PLC, occurred a number of times after Flight 370's last verified position, the people briefed on the situation said, indicating that at least through those five hours, the Boeing Co. BA -2.04% 777 carrying 239 people remained intact and hadn't been destroyed in a crash, act of sabotage or explosion.

Malaysia Airlines said it hadn't received any such data. According to Boeing, the plane's manufacturer, the airline didn't purchase a package through Boeing to monitor its airplanes' data through the satellite system.

If the plane remained airborne for the entire five hours, it could have flown more than 2,200 nautical miles from its last confirmed position over the Gulf of Thailand, the people said.


U.S. aviation investigators said they were analyzing the satellite transmissions to determine whether they can glean information about the plane's ultimate location or status. The transmissions were sent via onboard technology designed to send routine maintenance and system-monitoring data back to the ground via satellite links, according to the people familiar with the matter.

Muslims pray for the passengers of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 at Jame'asr Hassanil Bolkiah Mosque in Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei, on Thursday. Reuters
Among the possible scenarios investigators said they are now considering is whether the jet may have landed at any point during the five-hour period under scrutiny, or whether it ultimately crashed.

The people said aviation investigators are exploring the possibility that someone on the plane may have intentionally disabled two other automated communication systems in an attempt to avoid detection. One system is the transponders, which transmit to ground radar stations information on the plane's identity, location and altitude, and another system that collects and transmits data about several of the plane's key systems.

The widebody jet was scheduled to fly overnight to Beijing from Kuala Lumpur in the predawn hours of March 8. Its transponders last communicated with Malaysian civilian radar about an hour after takeoff.

Related
Tales From Flight 370: Life's Small Moments Loom Large
Malaysia Officials Dispute Existence of Engine Data
The Tricky Science of Radar Tracking
Plane Didn't Reappear on Vietnamese Radar
Search May Widen to Indian Ocean, U.S. Says

After the plane dropped off civilian radar screens, two people said, the satellite link operated in a kind of standby mode for several hours and sought to establish contact with a satellite or satellites. These transmissions didn't include data about any of the plane's critical systems, they said, but the periodic contacts indicate to investigators that the plane was still intact and believed to be flying at least a significant portion of that time. All of the people said the transmissions included detailed information about the plane's location, speed and bearing.

The transmissions, one person said, were comparable to the plane "saying I'm here, I'm ready to send data."

The uncertainty about where the plane was headed, and why it apparently continued flying so long without working transponders and other communication links, has raised theories among investigators that the aircraft may have been commandeered for reasons that remain unclear to U.S. authorities.

Former FBI agent Chris Voss joins the News Hub to discuss U.S. investigators' suspicions that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 stayed in the air for four hours after vanishing from civilian air-traffic control radar.

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U.S. Navy Stepping Up Malaysia Airlines Search
Former FBI Agent on the Search for MH370
At one briefing, according to one of the people, officials were told that investigators are actively pursuing the notion that the plane was diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose."

As authorities scramble to analyze and understand all of the transmissions from the missing 777, the situation continues to change rapidly. Some people briefed on the issue initially described the transmissions as information that had been relayed from onboard monitoring systems embedded in the two Rolls-Royce PLC Trent 800 engines, not the idling satellite communications system.

Write to Andy Pasztor at andy.pasztor@wsj.com and Jon Ostrower at jon.ostrower@wsj.com

Thrill

irishmover wrote: »

So it's impossible in a short or the like for a safety mechanism to trigger the transponder to off without human interaction?

And what if such a safety mechanism fails or the safety mechanism itself malfunctions leaving pilots helpless to do anything?

irishmover

Thrill wrote: »

And what if such a safety mechanism fails or the safety mechanism itself malfunctions leaving pilots helpless to do anything?

I see your point and I was thinking of that. What are the chances of both happening though if the safety trigger is completely independent of the electrical system?

Anyway, not really helping anything just thought something would be possible to automate the operation.

Thrill

irishmover wrote: »

What are the chances of both happening though if the safety trigger is completely independent of the electrical system?

Both things wouldn't need to happen at once though.

Imagine the following scenario. Your piloting a plane and all systems are functioning normally. Suddenly the automated safety mechanism malfunctions and switches off the transponder. Not only can you not switch the transponder back on, you cant turn the malfunctioning automated safety mechanism off.

Thrill

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

Friday, March 14, 12:00 AM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 18th Media Statement

Malaysia Airlines reiterates that we will continue to give our full support in cooperating with the search and rescue mission which is coordinated by the Department of Civil Aviation Malaysia (DCA) under the purview of the Ministry of Transport, Malaysia.


Malaysia Airlines is fully aware of the on-going media speculations and we have nothing further to add to the information we have already provided.
Our primary focus at this point in time is to care for the families of the passengers and crew of MH370. This means providing them with timely information, travel facilities, accommodation, meals, medical and emotional support.


Malaysia Airlines will continue to provide regular updates to the general public via the media and our website on all matters affecting MH370.
Please note translation for this statement to Chinese language is in progress.

Noo

How long did it take for debris from the air france plane to wash up onshore?

Captain Chaos

Noo wrote: »

How long did it take for debris from the air france plane to wash up onshore?

It dropped in the middle of the Atlantic, hundreds of kilometers from any land. It would have been years before some if any any washed up anywhere if at all.

knucklehead6

Noo wrote: »

How long did it take for debris from the air france plane to wash up onshore?

Recovery of debris and bodies started on 6th of June. The plane crashed early in the morning of 1st June, and the first wreckage was spotted on 2nd or 3rd, but not confirmed until 6th.

Noo

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It dropped in the middle of the Atlantic, hundreds of kilometers from any land. It would have been years before some if any any washed up anywhere if at all.

Oh really. Sorry my memory is a little hazy, I thought I could remember debris, only small things, reported being washed ashore relatively quickly. I mustnt be remembering right.

brandon_flowers

Thrill wrote: »

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

This is why I hate the media in these situations. Malaysia Airlines say they have given everything they have, Boeing and RR say they have given everything they have and are actively working with the authorities but the WSJ want to push an agenda that they somehow have more info than all three together.

If the have some much info and all these leaks they should pinpoint the final position and the politely **** off back to Wall Street. It seems they want this USS Kidd to be the hero and find everything and just **** over the Malaysian authorities.

Edit: And in the end if there is info then Boeing or RR will be the only ones that get screwed long term. It's obvious these "pings" they are talking about don't go to any MH system.

knucklehead6

Noo wrote: »

Oh really. Sorry my memory is a little hazy, I thought I could remember debris, only small things, reported being washed ashore relatively quickly. I mustnt be remembering right.

Believe it or not, wreckage from the Space Shuttle Challenger still gets washed ashore. I think the last time it happened was 2 or 3 years ago.

relaxed

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Recovery of debris and bodies started on 6th of June. The plane crashed early in the morning of 1st June, and the first wreckage was spotted on 2nd or 3rd, but not confirmed until 6th.

That's not what he asked though. I'll put the question differently, how many days after the AF crash was the last piece of debris or body pulled from the sea?

Not including something like a black box which I assume they had to dive for.

In other words how many days will they have before most of the debris and bodies have sunk or become so dispersed that no evidence may ever be found.

knucklehead6

relaxed wrote: »

That's not what he asked though. I'll put the question differently, how many days after the AF crash was the last piece of debris or body pulled from the sea?

Not including something like a black box which I assume they had to dive for.

In other words how many days will they have before most of the debris and bodies have sunk or become so dispersed that no evidence may ever be found.

The main recovery effort for AF447 didn't take place until they found the main section of the wreckage on the seabed. The final recovery phase ended on 3rd June 2011. There are 74 bodies that were never recovered.

brandon_flowers

knucklehead6 wrote: »

The main recovery effort for AF447 didn't take place until they found the main section of the wreckage on the seabed. The final recovery phase ended on 3rd June 2011. There are 74 bodies that were never recovered.

Edit: Sorry read that again, the first search ended around August 2009. The black box salvage operation took place in 2011.

Its all here anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Animord

Wow - so we still don't know, I keep going to bed at night thinking there will be new information in the morning.

Can I just say, being mostly a lurker in this thread, thank you so much to those of you who are pilots or in the aviation industry (or mobile phone experts :pac:) for providing such great information in this thread and taking the time to answer people's questions. I have personally learnt a huge amount about aviation that I didn't know and some of you have, I think, been extremely patient. So thanks.

intellectual dosser

This is becoming very frustrating for us sitting at our keyboards on the other side of the world, never mind people who are missing loved ones from the flight.

At this point I don't think there is a single bit of evidence we can take for face value, apart from the fact that the Malaysian plane hasn't checked in since 01:30 on Saturday March 8th. In other words we appear to be at square one still. Unbelievable.

horsefarm

Fascinating thread on a very tragic situation. I've read most pages but must admit there are a few pages I've missed, so apologies if this has been mentioned before...
I'm not buying the hijacking theory. Surely if there were 3-4 hijackers there would be enough brave souls in the remaining 235 people to try to overpower them or communicate for help?

I'm expecting it to turn out to be a crash caused by unconsciousness, and the plane flew on for a while. I believe it will eventually be found. I hope nobody suffered