Being excluded from the library for being unable to pay fees

Raphael

Many people do, yes. But another large portion of people have their fees waived, because they're in receipt of the grant. The only category's of people who have trouble are.

A) People who aren't eligible for grants, but don't have enough for fees
People who are eligible for grants, but can't afford the 208 euro student centre levy.

People in category A tend to be more won't than can't, or have more cashflow issues than lack of money. People in category B really have more serious issues to consider, as that's unlikely to be the only cost they can't pay.

Most people who are truly financially screwed just plain can't attend college - not because of the fees, but because of all the other costs - books & materials, cost of living, and the lost income from spending 4 years not working full time. That's what I mean when I say free fees is a failure, because it does nothing to address the ancillary costs of attending college. That someone is already managing to handle those but can't afford registration fee is something I have a hard time believing is commonplace.

ironclaw

steddyeddy wrote: »

On the can't pay won't pay issue is it not the case that most people have their parents pay their fees?

I don't know about you but most people don't have €12k hanging around from their summer jobs etc to pay for college for 4 /5 years. I don't. And I worked fairly consistently from 2007 until now. Pretty sure I didn't even make €12k in that time. I'm guessing, but I'd say you'd want the bones of €4k a year to survive in college between fee's, books, food, accommodation and going out.

So, naturally, most parents will pick up some or all of the bill. However, I know a good few people who either have to pay that back or out of morale obligation will pay it back anyway (Myself would fall into that category)

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year. Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't know about you but most people don't have €12k hanging around from their summer jobs etc to pay for college for 4 /5 years. I don't. And I worked fairly consistently from 2007 until now. Pretty sure I didn't even make €12k in that time. I'm guessing, but I'd say you'd want the bones of €4k a year to survive in college between fee's, books, food, accommodation and going out.

So, naturally, most parents will pick up some or all of the bill. However, I know a good few people who either have to pay that back or out of morale obligation will pay it back anyway (Myself would fall into that category)

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year. Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

The average degree in America isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The fact that students pay so much for a degree means that a lot of students feel entitled to demand the grades they want.

Calina

ironclaw wrote: »

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

You've a narrow outlook on who does what. I'm funding my own studies this year having worked for over ten years. Admittedly Masters level but the point is not all students are the immediately post secondary school demographic.

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year.

I was of the cohort who actually paid fees of around €3k 20 years ago before so called free fees.

I think most people here recognise they are in Europe where education is seen as a common good, not a privilege. Most European countries don't charge for primary degrees, or if they do, the amount of money involved is less again. Germany experimented and went back to free college access.

ironclaw wrote: »

Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Comparing us with America is just laziness because it's not just about the fees. There are some extremely good universities in the US, but importing their fee structure will not magically turn our universities into Stanford, Carnegie Mellon or MIT. Against that, a lot of their non-elite colleges and the fees concerned have led to massive, massive problems with education fee related debt in the US, along with a bunch of regulations that says it won't be written off, even in bankruptcy.

ironclaw wrote: »

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

Here's the point - I actually really wouldn't mind that. Well I'd mind them drinking it to some extent but that's because I generally think that there are no morally acceptable drinkers to be frank. If it's not alright when you're a student, it's not alright when you're a working person either.

The complaints I have about the university system in Ireland don't generally impact on UCD - but I do consider that a lot of vocational qualifications have been magicked into university degrees which may not be the best approach either for the training concerned or the reputation of having a university degree.

The one policy I would be staunchly against is the introduction of fees. A high level of common education is actually a social good for a lot of different reasons and it should not have an economic barrier per se. However, the structure of how we implement it, and the non-subject driven skills, need to be considered. The one thing people in Ireland sadly lack, across all levels, is critical thinking skills.

steddyeddy

Raphael wrote: »

Many people do, yes. But another large portion of people have their fees waived, because they're in receipt of the grant. The only category's of people who have trouble are.

A) People who aren't eligible for grants, but don't have enough for fees
People who are eligible for grants, but can't afford the 208 euro student centre levy.

People in category A tend to be more won't than can't, or have more cashflow issues than lack of money. People in category B really have more serious issues to consider, as that's unlikely to be the only cost they can't pay.

Most people who are truly financially screwed just plain can't attend college - not because of the fees, but because of all the other costs - books & materials, cost of living, and the lost income from spending 4 years not working full time. That's what I mean when I say free fees is a failure, because it does nothing to address the ancillary costs of attending college. That someone is already managing to handle those but can't afford registration fee is something I have a hard time believing is commonplace.

Well prepare to be shocked. I'm not talking about fees like 8-12k. I'm talking about students who temporarily cannot pay a third of the student levy fee. That's how much people are struggling and I don't think it's fair to exclude those people from the library based on ~90 euro.

UCD is falling over itself to open up access to college to people from disadvantaged backgrounds. Those at the top of the college do indeed believe that everyone has a right to college independent of parental wealth. The sad thing is there's a lot of students who come from a privileged position of having their rent and food paid for who look down on students who are trying to rise out of poverty.

steddyeddy

Calina wrote: »

You've a narrow outlook on who does what. I'm funding my own studies this year having worked for over ten years. Admittedly Masters level but the point is not all students are the immediately post secondary school demographic.



I was of the cohort who actually paid fees of around €3k 20 years ago before so called free fees.

I think most people here recognise they are in Europe where education is seen as a common good, not a privilege. Most European countries don't charge for primary degrees, or if they do, the amount of money involved is less again. Germany experimented and went back to free college access.



Comparing us with America is just laziness because it's not just about the fees. There are some extremely good universities in the US, but importing their fee structure will not magically turn our universities into Stanford, Carnegie Mellon or MIT. Against that, a lot of their non-elite colleges and the fees concerned have led to massive, massive problems with education fee related debt in the US, along with a bunch of regulations that says it won't be written off, even in bankruptcy.



Here's the point - I actually really wouldn't mind that. Well I'd mind them drinking it to some extent but that's because I generally think that there are no morally acceptable drinkers to be frank. If it's not alright when you're a student, it's not alright when you're a working person either.

The complaints I have about the university system in Ireland don't generally impact on UCD - but I do consider that a lot of vocational qualifications have been magicked into university degrees which may not be the best approach either for the training concerned or the reputation of having a university degree.

The one policy I would be staunchly against is the introduction of fees. A high level of common education is actually a social good for a lot of different reasons and it should not have an economic barrier per se. However, the structure of how we implement it, and the non-subject driven skills, need to be considered. The one thing people in Ireland sadly lack, across all levels, is critical thinking skills.

Indeed. I paid my way through my undergraduate, got a scholarship for my masters and got funding for a PhD.

Yet I find students who have their parents pay for rent ect saying that students who haven't got parents to pay fees ect shouldn't be in college.

hdowney

I would and will be one of those who will struggle with all the costs associated with going to college. But I want that degree, I want a decent job (please God) and I am going to work and sacrifice for it. There is no other way

I think there has been a lot of generalization going on in this thread, and (I am sorry if this wasn't meant, it is just an undercurrent I picked up) a bit of 'poor folk shouldn't come to college'. Like they are not entitled because they are poor and the costs produce hardship. College should never only be available to the monied folk.

steddyeddy

Yes indeed. I should have clarified that UCD are locking people out of the library who are temporarily unable to pay what is essentially a student union fee. I don't see how the union can stand over this.