Should Ireland have a better equipped Navy and Air Force?

Adrianno28

The Navy is very small for a country and an island with a huge geographic area of sea to protect. It seems to be a few ships that they can roll out to make it look good when clearly a lot more in terms of numbers are needed.

I know we are a Neutral country and all that but reading about our air defence terms like "air defence of the country was non-existent" and "Ireland only has six RBS-70 surface-to-air (SAM) missile launchers and a number of obsolete Bofors guns along with a 15-year-old Giraffe radar with a range of 40 kilometres to mount a low-level air defence" makes me a little concerned

If a hijacked plane or some unforeseen intrusion were to come about what would happen? The British Air Force given a call? Also what happens when for example the US President or a World Leader comes here... do they provide their own defense.. or what happens.. embarrassing. I know that money is tight now but why was more not spend all along to keep us up to date? In the 21st century I think that a modern Air Force and Navy with decent technology and all it entails is the right way to go... thoughts??

PS:
This is not aimed at the Defence Force Personnel who do great work in Ireland and around the world but more at Defence Policy and a lack of a Government long term Defence view for Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/czechs-offer-ireland-cheap-n-cheerful-air-defence-26251048.html

Frosty McSnowballs

It all comes down to money. We don't have any...

Reg002

Unfortunately we have never invested adequately in defence. For years we never had the money, we did invest when there was some money but now we have none again! We should have a basic air defence capability, six to eight jets. Having these skills has a knock on effect for the wider economy and the aerospace industry in general.

Kiltennel

As things stand now, if a commercial jet was to be highjacked the air force wouldn't be capable of intercepting it. AFAIK the RAF look after our air defence if we were to require it, and honestly, what are the chances of that ever happening?

The country barely has the money to meet high priority requirements and right now a well equipped navy and air force would be of very low priority.

spank_inferno

Ireland has never invested in its defence.

Ireland has one of the lowest defence budgets in the world. A peer country like Denmark spends nearly 3 times more.

Investing in defence is also politically unpopular.
Paddy assumes someone else will take care of it (like so many other issues).

marc96

Adrianno28 wrote: »

The Navy is very small for a country and an island with a huge geographic area of sea to protect. It seems to be a few ships that they can roll out to make it look good when clearly a lot more in terms of numbers are needed.

I know we are a Neutral country and all that but reading about our air defence terms like "air defence of the country was non-existent" and "Ireland only has six RBS-70 surface-to-air (SAM) missile launchers and a number of obsolete Bofors guns along with a 15-year-old Giraffe radar with a range of 40 kilometres to mount a low-level air defence" makes me a little concerned

If a hijacked plane or some unforeseen intrusion were to come about what would happen? The British Air Force given a call? Also what happens when for example the US President or a World Leader comes here... do they provide their own defense.. or what happens.. embarrassing. I know that money is tight now but why was more not spend all along to keep us up to date? In the 21st century I think that a modern Air Force and Navy with decent technology and all it entails is the right way to go... thoughts??

PS:
This is not aimed at the Defence Force Personnel who do great work in Ireland and around the world but more at Defence Policy and a lack of a Government long term Defence view for Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/czechs-offer-ireland-cheap-n-cheerful-air-defence-26251048.html

Wouldn't think Ireland is neutral if they let America use Shannon for their war on terror?

spank_inferno

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

It all comes down to money. We don't have any...

13th richest country on earth per capita.

There is and always has been money.

Most countries take it seriously, we don't.

Its just politics, the people are against it, so the government never invested.

SimonLynch

I know someone in the forces who reckons they need more boats and planes for fishery patrol. The Air Corps probably have all they need militarily, pilots are getting more flying hours than most European air forces so I'm told.

spank_inferno

SimonLynch wrote: »

I know someone in the forces who reckons they need more boats and planes for fishery patrol. The Air Corps probably have all they need militarily, pilots are getting more flying hours than most European air forces so I'm told.

Flight hours in what?

What intercept & eliminate capability has the air corps?

SimonLynch

I'm no expert :-) Intercept and eliminate would be zero I'd imagine, the Swiss prop planes can carry guns and rockets but wouldn't be sitting on the runway armed with them.

Flight hours as in they get to go up in the air a lot, plenty of Europeans only going up for the bare minimum (I'm told)

Frosty McSnowballs

spank_inferno wrote: »

13th richest country on earth per capita.

There is and always has been money.

Most countries take it seriously, we don't.

Its just politics, the people are against it, so the government never invested.

Money wise, the country is fcuked. We have had bailouts, the Troika are only recently "gone", every cent the country has, has been scrutinised and accounted for. The DF has been bashed apart by the Government and it's not the end of it. The Minister doesn't even give a fuq about the DF and would rather it was downsized so much that it should be disbanded.

The future budgets for all Departments have been planned for, the Defence Budget will not be raised. If they are, it won't be significant enough give us what the civvies in the Department "know we don't need", so they won't buy it.

I agree with your whole post, the Govt/citizens of this country have no care of Defence because there is no apparent, immediate threat.

Adrianno28

spank_inferno wrote: »

13th richest country on earth per capita.

There is and always has been money.

Most countries take it seriously, we don't.

Its just politics, the people are against it, so the government never invested.

I agree but do you think that Irish people really dont care? If any government said " Look we need a decent military- navy and air force and Army" people would complain, then forget about it and it'd be done... the same as always happens. I dont get why successive governments have it as such a low priority.. but guess its because people do not care enough for it to make it to Government. Sad.

Reg002

marc96 wrote: »

Wouldn't think Ireland is neutral if they let America use Shannon for their war on terror?

And the former Soviet Union used Shannon for years also!

Adrianno28

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I agree with your whole post, the Govt/citizens of this country have no care of Defence because there is no apparent, immediate threat.

And when the proverbial Sh#t hits the fan some day.. it'll be too late as always is the case here.

spank_inferno

Adrianno28 wrote: »

I agree but do you think that Irish people really dont care? If any government said " Look we need a decent military- navy and air force and Army" people would complain, then forget about it and it'd be done... the same as always happens. I dont get why successive governments have it as such a low priority.. but guess its because people do not care enough for it to make it to Government. Sad.

I agree with you.

However governments barely look ahead further than the next opinion poll..

They could & should just get on with it, but every government proves to be soft on hysterical overreactions.
And you can imagine the hysteria the crusties would drum up if, heaven forbid a government decided to defend some air-space.

spank_inferno

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

The future budgets for all Departments have been planned for, the Defence Budget will not be raised.

True, no chance of a budget increase, unless it comes from some sort of EU fund.

There was a lot of belt tightening just to afford the 2 new naval vessels.

Adrianno28

True, I agree. It's a shame that money couldn't be found. New Naval Vessels and new AIr Space defense is a must for the future.. Just hope that someone in Power realizes it .

Xios

spank_inferno wrote: »

Flight hours in what?

What intercept & eliminate capability has the air corps?

They don't really, but here are the Air Corps roles (copypasta)
You can clearly see they do a lot of services and spend a lot of time in the air.

The primary role of the Air Corps is to support the Army, this includes the following:

• Observation and Reconnaissance
• Local Fire Support
• Command and Control
• Limited Tactical Mobility and Logistic Support
• Casualty Evacuation
• In Support of the Naval Service
• Maritime Surveillance and Defence
• National Security
• Economic Zone Surveillance
• Protection of Natural Resources
• In Aid to the Civil Power
• Maintaining and flying Garda Support Unit Aircraft
• Observation Reconnaissance and Search Operations
• Photographic Reconnaissance
• Industrial Explosives Escorts
• Prisoner Escorts
• Cash Escorts
• Protection of Airspace Operations

The secondary role of the Air Corps includes the following:

• Aid to the Civil Community
• Aid to Government Departments
• Aid to the Civil Community
• Recovery and Top cover for search & rescue
• Air Ambulance
• Island Relief
• Snow Relief
• Aid to Government Departments
• Ministerial Air Transport Service
• Pollution Surveys
• Forest and Wildlife Surveys
• Aerial Photography
• Civil ATC Co-operation
• Assisting in Major Disaster relief

spank_inferno

Xios wrote: »

They don't really, but here are the Air Corps roles (copypasta)
You can clearly see they do a lot of services and spend a lot of time in the air.

The primary role of the Air Corps is to support the Army, this includes the following:

• Observation and Reconnaissance
• Local Fire Support
• Command and Control
• Limited Tactical Mobility and Logistic Support
• Casualty Evacuation
• In Support of the Naval Service
• Maritime Surveillance and Defence
• National Security
• Economic Zone Surveillance
• Protection of Natural Resources
• In Aid to the Civil Power
• Maintaining and flying Garda Support Unit Aircraft
• Observation Reconnaissance and Search Operations
• Photographic Reconnaissance
• Industrial Explosives Escorts
• Prisoner Escorts
• Cash Escorts
• Protection of Airspace Operations

The secondary role of the Air Corps includes the following:

• Aid to the Civil Community
• Aid to Government Departments
• Aid to the Civil Community
• Recovery and Top cover for search & rescue
• Air Ambulance
• Island Relief
• Snow Relief
• Aid to Government Departments
• Ministerial Air Transport Service
• Pollution Surveys
• Forest and Wildlife Surveys
• Aerial Photography
• Civil ATC Co-operation
• Assisting in Major Disaster relief

That's fine, but what is your point?

Do you think the Air Corps are adequately resourced to defend Irish Air Space?

Should they be better equipped?

Xios

This is the area the Navy and Air Corp patrols (I think its accurate)
Naval Map for ireland

But in my opinion, our Air Corp and Naval Corp are underfunded to protect such a large area. But, in saying that, i think they've been doing a friggin brilliant job with limited resources.

750 people in the Air corp and 1,500 in the Naval Service. More people work at Google in Ireland than there is in these two military branches.

Xios

spank_inferno wrote: »

That's fine, but what is your point?

Do you think the Air Corps are adequately resourced to defend Irish Air Space?

Should they be better equipped?

Check the post above for this answer

Also,
You asked "flight hours in what?" Do you think the military only exists to blow **** up? The military provides quite extensive services to the public in addition to their security role.

Jawgap

All things considered - in the context of our foreign policy, the threats faced by the country (or lack thereof) and the political aspirations we have as a nation - the defence forces are not too far off being sufficient.

We could probably do with a beefed up maritime patrol capability but we don't need an air defence capability because there is nothing here of sufficient importance to warrant an attack from the air, as currently envisaged.

The army could probably do with a few more bodies, but to support the roles they already have and allow them to do a better job (which is pretty good already) - but there's no need to extend or add to what they do.

Larbre34

Although we are allies in all but name we would have to explicitly sign up to some sort of defence accord to avail of a European defence cohesion fund, and that's a very hard sell in Ireland so we are stuck with what we have. We also have no belligerents in our vicinity, near or far.

However we do have the passive availability of some very modern air and sea forces from our nearby NATO neighbours in terms of air defence and naval cover so we don't really need to spend on it. The essential civilian assistance needs like SAR are now pretty well covered.

It would be nice to have a larger infantry force to work overseas on peacekeeping / enforcement and enough navy ships to travel with them or work independently in far away places on anti-piracy and drug interdiction missions etc, but thats all an idealistic luxury and in reality we are no worse off at home for not having those assets.

Xios

Larbre34 wrote: »

However we do have the passive availability of some very modern air and sea forces from our nearby NATO neighbours in terms of air defence and naval cover so we don't really need to spend on it. The essential civilian assistance needs like SAR are now pretty well covered..

Just to point out, Ireland is not part of NATO, nato countries have no obligation to come to our aid should we find ourselves at war. That's not to say they won't, but they don't have to. As far as NATO is concerned, we're the same as Ukraine.

Scratch that, we're in the Partnership of Peace, so we're in the same boat as Russia, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland etc.

Get Real

Adrianno28 wrote: »

Also what happens when for example the US President or a World Leader comes here... do they provide their own defense.. or what happens.. embarrassing.

I remember when Obama came back in 2011. The day before this MASSIVE helicopter flew over my house, doing an excercise/survey. I could see the guns, and it made a humongous chuck chuck noise. Actually wondered did they fly that over along with his presidential car etc or??

Then went to see him in college green. More for the whole CIA/FBI sht. We passed through tents and the guys searching us were American soldiers/secret service (im guessing) the suits, earpieces and sunglasses. And they addressed everyone by sir and m'am.

Then when we got through, up on the roof of trinity college, there were American soldiers, with sniper rifles, binoculars etc. It really felt like a small foreign army was used.

Now it was really cool to see, and don't get me wrong, the guards did a great job.

But when I saw this military precision, seriousness, shifting eyes at everyone in the crowd type carry on, it really highlighted our lack of military capabilities. (and by that I'm not saying we don't have a well trained defence force, because we do, but scale wise/seeing them in everyday life)

So I think we should have a better equipped service, particularly naval. There's plenty of coastline to protect, if not for military reasons then certainly for the importation of drugs and illegal fishing. But as said, political pressure isn't there to do it, and its not at the forefront of peoples concerns.

Morpheus

Are you sure you werent mistaken? Irish soldiers including Irish snipers and spotter teams were stationed on building tops up and down the quays and in the immediate vicinity along with obamas own inner close protection armed bodyguards.

Gardai, Secret service, etc all worked in close proximity and coordination with each other. AFAIK No american soldiers were deployed with sniper rifles and any that were deployed at all, were not there without diplomatic permission.

The aircraft were included in the presedential flight. chinooks and sikorskys and blackhawks. Irish Ribs were posted on the river and an air and sea cordon was put up by the aircorps and navy, an air defence cordon was in place around the city using giraffe radars and anti aircraft missile defence systems at both dublin and casement aerodrome with PC9s on CAP over the city.

chopper6

Adrianno28 wrote: »

And when the proverbial Sh#t hits the fan some day.. it'll be too late as always is the case here.

Who,exactly is likely to invade us?

irish_goat

Xios wrote: »

This is the area the Navy and Air Corp patrols (I think its accurate)
Naval Map for ireland
More people work at Google in Ireland than there is in these two military branches.

Here's a map of where Google in Ireland cover though.

Map of Google Service Area

An Cigire

The Air Corps had the capability to provide point defence i.e. planned air policing for specific events.

I believe the CASAs also have the capability to preform AWACS functions also.

I would expand the navy & air corps.. But there should be a deployable assets from both the AC & NS in support of overseas missions.

Walk before you run and all that.. This mean domestic 24 hour 365 available assests at home first.

Larbre34

If Obama went to Moscow tomorrow you would see massive american helicopters and transport planes in the skies, that's just the circus that goes with him, if they host country don't like it - he don't come.

OS119

An Cigire wrote: »

..I believe the CASAs also have the capability to preform AWACS functions also...

i've often seen this being stated, but i'm not convinced its true - what is the basis for this suggestion?