Ireland.... Corrupt & Backwards country

Gmol

We're not particularly corrupt compared to others, we''re human and most people here would pawn their granny for an apartment in Bulgaria

Legs.Eleven

Your post quoted another post that said "If you think we're bad, head over to Spain"...

Yep. I agreed with him.

Also, I'm not trying to compare to America, my whole point is that it's pointless drawing comparisons with other countries. We should decide what's acceptable for ourselves

Not in this thread but you do make comparisons with the US in many of your posts I've read. Naturally you would as you live there.


Comparisons are good for a sense of perspective because it seems a fairly sizable proportion of Boards posters don't have it.


I'd be interested in hearing what kind of corruption the current Irish government are involved in. I'm aware of what went on within the FF but not the FG/Labour coalition so much.

BuilderPlumber

jonnny68 wrote: »

Definitely not, Ireland is probably one of the most corrupt in Europe.

I have read corruption indexes but these are all propaganda. The Western countries come out whiter than white whereas African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries don't (a lot of them admittedly deserving their poor rating: North Korea being an example!!). But yes Ireland is a very corrupt country that gets off lightly in most ratings because we have good relations with both the West and other power blocks! On the other hand, we may be corrupt but there are at least 60 ones worse than use too!

orangesoda

Depends where you are, in some country roads with old cottages on them you may as well be in 1814, if you squint you can almost see horses and carts and flat caps

Artful_Badger

Mr. G wrote: »

There are other reasons, for example connectivity, location, young educated workforce, relatively positive industrial relations, no seismic activity, green image etc. It's not just the low corporation tax, though I'd imagine that would be a major factor.

I agree with that, but tax is not the only reason.

I'm sure all those things are factored in and Ireland has a lot going for it in terms of what you mentioned but its hard to look past the tax particularly when all this Dutch Irish Sandwich talk keeps hitting the news with these huge companies paying very little tax after all their tax avoidance measures.

Its hard to take all those other things seriously when every second week one of these companies is being quizzed by governments over the fact they pay shag all tax after they move it from billy to jack and then back to Ireland. As low as Ireland corporation tax is they still dont pay it after all is said and done.

It is worth noting though that I'm no financial expert.

dxhound2005

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I have read corruption indexes but these are all propaganda. The Western countries come out whiter than white whereas African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries don't (a lot of them admittedly deserving their poor rating: North Korea being an example!!). But yes Ireland is a very corrupt country that gets off lightly in most ratings because we have good relations with both the West and other power blocks! On the other hand, we may be corrupt but there are at least 60 ones worse than use too!

So is there any variation at all between the results? How many different indices have you compared?

SpaceTime

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I have read corruption indexes but these are all propaganda. The Western countries come out whiter than white whereas African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries don't (a lot of them admittedly deserving their poor rating: North Korea being an example!!). But yes Ireland is a very corrupt country that gets off lightly in most ratings because we have good relations with both the West and other power blocks! On the other hand, we may be corrupt but there are at least 60 ones worse than use too!

OK, come back to me when the Government seizes your house and hands it over to an oligarch-developer to build a hotel on (as happens in China).

Or, when you have to pay a police officer a bribe to avoid arrest on trumped up charges (as happens in quite a lot of countries).

Unfortunately, there's no grand conspiracy, just a lot of places are FAR FAR FAR worse.

Many countries have no free press, threat of arrest if you challenge the state in anyway, risk of torture, no or highly questionable property rights, corrupt judicial systems where rule of law is used politically against people, no democratic accountability, totally corrupt administrations etc etc etc.

On taxation/regulation of companies:

City of London, Switzerland, Luxembourg etc etc all rate rather highly as places you pay little tax or that will allow you to operate businesses with light touch regulation. We're far from unique in that regard.

We are far from perfect and we've a lot of work to do if we aim to meet the very high bar set by the countries that do top that list (mostly the Scandinavian ones) but it's worth striving to get there.

But, seriously a bit of perspective rather than this wallowing in self-flagellation would be quite helpful!

Wompa1

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Yep. I agreed with him.




Not in this thread but you do make comparisons with the US in many of your posts I've read. Naturally you would as you live there.


Comparisons are good for a sense of perspective because it seems a fairly sizable proportion of Boards posters don't have it.


I'd be interested in hearing what kind of corruption the current Irish government are involved in. I'm aware of what went on within the FF but not the FG/Labour coalition so much.

Off the top of my head, this comes to mind as being pretty suspect:

http://thestory.ie/2011/12/04/enda-kenny-overruled-two-ministers-to-give-e35000-pay-rise/comment-page-1/

Also the minced words in relation to our special tax rate for companies. Not sure of the inner workings at play but I assume the Minister for health would have juristiction over the panel selection for the Savita case seeing as though it was as highly visible as it was. That panel selection was a slap in the face.

Also, corruption can happen at various different levels. I'm sure we're all aware of corrupt sh1t happening in our local areas with our TD's, City\County Councils or Public Servants.

Adamantium

Vast swathes of Europe are socialist in times of economic stress and it always makes things worse, we need to learn from history and do the exact opposite. Yet history is apparently some record to look at and assume that tings are always better now, as opposed for a blueprint for not what not to do. We know history, yet "we always say, we weren't to know" "Ah no actually, we were" It's there in the record

Voters don't know basic economics. Its not about money. Its about reality, it's about stuff. If you take, without making some more valuable to give back; multiplied by millions of people making hundreds of decisions over thousands of days will crash any human society in every area. Its glacial, and as sure as gravity.

Mr. G

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I'm sure all those things are factored in and Ireland has a lot going for it in terms of what you mentioned but its hard to look past the tax particularly when all this Dutch Irish Sandwich talk keeps hitting the news with these huge companies paying very little tax after all their tax avoidance measures.

Its hard to take all those other things seriously when every second week one of these companies is being quizzed by governments over the fact they pay shag all tax after they move it from billy to jack and then back to Ireland. As low as Ireland corporation tax is they still dont pay it after all is said and done.

It is worth noting though that I'm no financial expert.

This sort of thing is being tackled. Increasing the rate is not the answer.

I think we have come a long way in the last 50 years. The church unfortunately set us back. Over the last few years, heavy topics which I won't go in to such as abortion, contraception, sex age, gay relationships/marriage have all been tackled. Whether we agreed or not, it still highlighted how much we are a democratic society that allows for members of the LGBT community equal and fair treatment, where our education system does not favor any religion etc.

I disagree to say we are backward. When people think of backward in Ireland, they think of poor Jimmy down the road with his wellingtons leaning against the wall at the back of mass every Sunday. Just because we don't communicate by email to someone sitting beside us doesn't mean we are backward. Socialising is important, especially for ones mental health.

The introduction of 4G and FTTC/FTTH has come within time of our European counterparts. Broadband penetration has risen dramatically in the last few years. We still have a bit to go.

Now we're not perfect don't get me wrong. But having a negative attitude towards Ireland in the sense that we are laidback is not the way to go about improving our country.

SpaceTime

Adamantium wrote: »

Voters don't know basic economics. Its not about money. Its about reality, it's about stuff. If you take, without making some more valuable to give back; multiplied by millions of people making hundreds of decisions over thousands of days will crash any human society in every area. Its glacial, and as sure as gravity.

We also basically politically hung FF out to dry over what happened through a democratic election. That's actually highly unusual and shows that we do have serious levels of democratic accountability, far more than the UK or US have in many respects.

I think the electorate showing that it's prepared to hold parities fully accountable has been sea change in politics here and will end a lot of cronyism and corruption.

The old civil war voting mentality where people zombie-voted for FF or FG appears to be over and you're seeing people actually use the PR-STV voting system in a very powerful way. That's something we didn't do in the past.

I actually think Ireland displayed a great degree of financial and political literacy, much more than I've seen elsewhere in Europe where the electorates have been very quick to just swing towards a populist target like immigration or extreme anti-EU stuff - you're seeing a rise of very strange hardline right wing parties in quite a few countries.

There was a pretty impressive level of public discourse in Ireland about economics in the last few years. Most people now have a grasp of what went wrong.

It's one of the most politically engaged places I've ever lived (and I've lived in a few places)

I find more people here have very well-informed opinions based on actual facts than other places where I find they're just either 'socialist' or 'capitalist'.

Take the US for example, people tend to be either die-hard democrats or die-hard republicans. There's not all that much middle ground. In the UK too, the Tory vs Labour thing is pretty pointless.

It's a LOT more nuanced here.

Boskowski

It depends on how you define corruption. If you picture a slimy fella with a big moustache slipping a brown envelope over the desk then its probably not. If you picture slightly steamed looking TD in horse racing bar agreeing to fix some big shot's planning permission or speeding ticket in exchange for some dubious favour then probably yes.

Artful_Badger

Mr. G wrote: »

This sort of thing is being tackled. Increasing the rate is not the answer.

I think we have come a long way in the last 50 years. The church unfortunately set us back. Over the last few years, heavy topics which I won't go in to such as abortion, contraception, sex age, gay relationships/marriage have all been tackled. Whether we agreed or not, it still highlighted how much we are a democratic society that allows for members of the LGBT community equal and fair treatment, where our education system does not favor any religion etc.

I disagree to say we are backward. When people think of backward in Ireland, they think of poor Jimmy down the road with his wellingtons leaning against the wall at the back of mass every Sunday. Just because we don't communicate by email to someone sitting beside us doesn't mean we are backward. Socialising is important, especially for ones mental health.

The introduction of 4G and FTTC/FTTH has come within time of our European counterparts. Broadband penetration has risen dramatically in the last few years. We still have a bit to go.

Now we're not perfect don't get me wrong. But having a negative attitude towards Ireland in the sense that we are laidback is not the way to go about improving our country.

I dont think we're backward either and I never said increase corporation tax. I dont know enough about it to say increase it or not tbh.

My only gripe is this "Top multinationals choose to set up in Ireland" talk to say how great a nation we are when it comes to business. When the biggest reason that they are here is because it allows them to avoid paying huge amounts of tax because of the unique way the tax system is set up in relation to other countries. Sure good things can still come of it and we still have a lot to offer. But its nothing much to brag about.

SpaceTime

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I dont think we're backward either and I never said increase corporation tax. I dont know enough about it to say increase it or not tbh.

My only gripe is this "Top multinationals choose to set up in Ireland" talk to say how great a nation we are when it comes to business. When the biggest reason that they are here is because it allows them to avoid paying huge amounts of tax because of the unique way the tax system is set up in relation to other countries. Sure good things can still come of it and we still have a lot to offer. But its nothing much to brag about.

Well, it's a few things:

Low tax
Similar business environment to the US or UK which is familiar to them.
Legal system that's very similar to UK (and US) law for contracts etc.
and English-speaking workforce.
Direct access to the world's largest consumer market : The EU which we are part of.

Those videos are as much an advert pitched towards execs in companies as they are an advert for tourism / the diaspora.

At the end of the day at the moment it's all about jobs, jobs, jobs ... We're effectively pulling in companies ahead of other countries and we're taking tax in the form of PAYE and PRSI contributions + the spill down into the rest of the economy of the wages (often quite high relative to other countries) earned.

We're definitely pimping ourselves out a bit, but that's kinda a necessary evil to keep the lights on.

The key focus now should be developing indigenous industries in technology and high-value added food (big potential there) on the back of the economic activity that we are seeing that's being driven by the inward investment from multinationals.

There's a lot of technology transfer, knowledge transfer and spin offs too in terms of having those kinds of companies present here. It's not all as negative as some people paint.

We really aren't pulling in cheap, manufacturing multinationals either. We're getting some very interesting stuff that is actually useful in terms of the kind of spin offs it creates ... e.g. pharma/bio pharma spun out quite a significant engineering industry in Ireland which is now developing similar projects all over the world. We have a few pretty serious companies in that area. It's also had a deep impact on the universities and on R&D and also supply chain companies etc.

The needs of those multinationals have driven things like development of transport and logistics, telecoms etc etc..

The key thing though is we need to be doing more to leverage that to create more Irish businesses too. Ultimately, having the knowledge, tech and R&D here is will will sustain us long term.

joe swanson

jonnny68 wrote: »

Definitely not, Ireland is probably one of the most corrupt in Europe.

link please to your evidence

J_E

jonnny68 wrote: »

Definitely not, Ireland is probably one of the most corrupt in Europe.

lol to this... Bit of a word vomit thing to say rather than an informed opinion - and I would not even consider myself all that interested in political affairs for the most part.

Artful_Badger

Cydoniac wrote: »

lol to this... Bit of a word vomit thing to say rather than an informed opinion - and I would not even consider myself all that interested in political affairs for the most part.

Is that you Joey Essex ?

KyussBishop

Do people not see that the "what about 'other country x'" stuff, just distracts from corruption in Ireland, and helps protect it - because when you say "but it's worse elsewhere", you're automatically (whether you mean to or not) advocating, implicitly, that nothing should be done about corruption here.

There's not really any other point, to saying something is worse elsewhere, other than that.

Again, I know that's not what many people mean when they make that point, but that seems to inevitably be how it will come across. regardless of intent.


Better to slam people (who say stuff like "Ireland is the most corrupt in Europe") for lack of proof, and for diminishing their own point with hyperbole, than to make an argument against that which simultaneously reads as advocating doing nothing about corruption, or settling for lesser standards.

KyussBishop

Private corruption is something that is extremely important to consider in this discussion, because the most politically important part of our economy - the monetary system - is not in democratic control, but is in control (largely) of the banks and the (non-democratically-controlled) central bank (and beyond that, the ECB); the most potent location for potential corruption there, being with the banks (through having control of the allocation of money, and through having extremely light regulations, which allowed them to be extraordinarily reckless).

Some of the leading criminologists and experts on financial fraud, like William K. Black, have done an analysis on Ireland and said that our property boom nearly certainly co-incided with massive industrywide fraud, among developers, banks and finance.

Femme_Fatale

KyussBishop wrote: »

Do people not see that the "what about 'other country x'" stuff, just distracts from corruption in Ireland, and helps protect it - because when you say "but it's worse elsewhere", you're automatically (whether you mean to or not) advocating, implicitly, that nothing should be done about corruption here.

There's not really any other point, to saying something is worse elsewhere, other than that.

Again, I know that's not what many people mean when they make that point, but that seems to inevitably be how it will come across. regardless of intent.

But the very same could be said about when people say "Oh Ireland is the most corrupt country in Europe" - that diminishes the corruption of the countries that are actually more corrupt than Ireland rather than being less corrupt, as well as being bullsh1t.
There's definitely no point in saying "You think Ireland's bad? What about xyz" if a person starts talking about corruption in Ireland, as that's just whataboutery. But as Legs said, saying "Actually no, it's far less corrupt than xyz" in response to the unfounded allegations is just putting things in perspective. There's no point in flouting out and out lies.

TireeTerror

Try living in the countryside, full of backward inbreds!

KyussBishop

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But the very same could be said about when people say "Oh Ireland is the most corrupt country in Europe" - that diminishes the corruption of the countries that are actually more corrupt than Ireland rather than being less corrupt, as well as being bullsh1t.
There's definitely no point in saying "You think Ireland's bad? What about xyz" if a person starts talking about corruption in Ireland, as that's just whataboutery. But as Legs said, saying "Actually no, it's far less corrupt than xyz" in response to the unfounded allegations is just putting things in perspective. There's no point in flouting out and out lies.

It does diminish corruption in other countries, and should be countered - but their argument can be slammed, without risking implying that we should settle with how things are - and I fully understand that's not what people are trying to imply, it just inevitably comes across that way, because it's not really possible to phrase it otherwise.

ClovenHoof

That video the OP posted was cringe inducing. We use to laugh at Americans for schmaltzing their own mythology up, that vid is even worst.

We have won **** all Olympic medals. Dreadful record at sport in general, and I don't think I saw Thin Lizzy being mentioned in that music list.

Sound of Silence

KyussBishop wrote: »

Do people not see that the "what about 'other country x'" stuff, just distracts from corruption in Ireland, and helps protect it - because when you say "but it's worse elsewhere", you're automatically (whether you mean to or not) advocating, implicitly, that nothing should be done about corruption here.

There's not really any other point, to saying something is worse elsewhere, other than that.

Again, I know that's not what many people mean when they make that point, but that seems to inevitably be how it will come across. regardless of intent.


Better to slam people (who say stuff like "Ireland is the most corrupt in Europe") for lack of proof, and for diminishing their own point with hyperbole, than to make an argument against that which simultaneously reads as advocating doing nothing about corruption, or settling for lesser standards.

Any sort of debate would run in circles endlessly if we considered every posters hyperbole to be some kind of valid point worth addressing.

If someone says that Ireland is the most corrupt Nation in Europe, then the burden of proof should rest firmly in their lap. Nobody is dodging the apparent reality of the situation by simply pointing how ludicrous these statements are and how they muddy the debate.

J_E

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Is that you Joey Essex ?

I have no idea who that is but doesn't sound hopeful...so I shall say not at all.

KyussBishop

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Any sort of debate would run in circles endlessly if we considered every posters hyperbole to be some kind of valid point worth addressing.

If someone says that Ireland is the most corrupt Nation in Europe, then the burden of proof should rest firmly in their lap. Nobody is dodging the apparent reality of the situation by simply pointing how ludicrous these statements are and how they muddy the debate.

I agree with you, it's just that the way people disagree with this isn't to pan it for being hyperbole, but to start comparing Ireland to other countries in a way that implies our problems aren't so bad, which also implies (whether the poster intended it or not) that it's less worth acting on as a result.

Ironically, that (unintended) implication helps to muddy the debate even more; think of how easy it is for someone to disrupt debate and get others to (seem as if they are) play(ing) down corruption:
Someone can come onto the thread and just say "Ireland's the most corrupt country in Europe" - then that generates a slew of posters who then (unintentionally) end up making posts that play down corruption (even though that's not the actual viewpoint of the posters, it's inevitably what it come across as).


Maybe better to pan hyperbole, by saying "your exaggeration harms your overall argument, because it's pretty easy to show Ireland isn't the most corrupt country - you may have a point in the rest of what you say, but don't make it so easy to dismiss, by pairing it with hyperbole whose premise is easy to debunk".

I'm not saying that's how it should be done - I'm just putting it as an example, of how to counter the hyperbole, without unintentionally seeming to play-down corruption.

Legs.Eleven

KyussBishop wrote: »

I agree with you, it's just that the way people disagree with this isn't to pan it for being hyperbole, but to start comparing Ireland to other countries in a way that implies our problems aren't so bad, which also implies (whether the poster intended it or not) that it's less worth acting on as a result.

Ironically, that (unintended) implication helps to muddy the debate even more; think of how easy it is for someone to disrupt debate and get others to (seem as if they are) play(ing) down corruption:
Someone can come onto the thread and just say "Ireland's the most corrupt country in Europe" - then that generates a slew of posters who then (unintentionally) end up making posts that play down corruption (even though that's not the actual viewpoint of the posters, it's inevitably what it come across as).


Maybe better to pan hyperbole, by saying "your exaggeration harms your overall argument, because it's pretty easy to show Ireland isn't the most corrupt country - you may have a point in the rest of what you say, but don't make it so easy to dismiss, by pairing it with hyperbole whose premise is easy to debunk".

I'm not saying that's how it should be done - I'm just putting it as an example, of how to counter the hyperbole, without unintentionally seeming to play-down corruption.

I see your point but it's impossible for me to NOT make a comparison to the country I live in. I don't mean to make light of corruption in Ireland but my posts were in response to the hyperbole, which is a very consistent feature to these threads and ruins discussion in my opinion.

I'd be happy enough now to concentrate on corruption in Ireland now that I've made my point.

Mint Aero

Correction to title if I may

Ireland... Corrupt & Backward Little Country

suicide_circus

Ireland is the most corrupt country in the world. ..except for all the countries in Africa....and South America...and Eurasia...and Eastern Europe...and most of Asia...but yeah apart from them, totes most corrupt ever!

everdead.ie

The corruption index has us 21st out of 177 countries worldwide and we are not miles away from the top ten I think the main issue in Ireland is the lack of transparency in dealing with corruption the PAC has been a recent and most welcome tool that has been bringing transparency and I hope this will continue.

I hope in the next 10 years to improve that position because I don't believe we have so many more corrupt persons here than anywhere else.

robbiezero

Wouldn't say that we are a particularly corrupt country.
But there is a prevailing view among a lot of our managing elite that the taxpayers money is a big trough to be shared amongst well-connected snouts. All quite legal.
And up until recently such snouts or cute hoors were admired by the average Joe for their cleverness (shrewdness) in managing to get themselves so well sorted.
I think it is only recently largely due to the recession that this is starting to change as the media are getting the idea that the general public now get quite annoyed and like to find out about people that are fleecing the citizen (not using the word taxpayer as money going to the snouts is money that could be used for all).

trichome

As somebody who works in the public service I totally agree. Our politians are corrupt to the core and were as backwards as they come. Just look at our patheic broadband coverage/speeds.

everdead.ie

trichome wrote: »

As somebody who works in the public service I totally agree. Our politians are corrupt to the core and were as backwards as they come. Just look at our patheic broadband coverage/speeds.

This is really just down to population density and in fairness the government are going to be rolling out the ESB network to supply broadband speeds to smaller towns that currently don't get access to fast networks that are available in the cities.

Augmerson

All democracies and capitalist economies are corrupt. We are corrupt. Are we corrupt to the point that you need to bribe a doctor to see your sick child or bribe a cop to let you continue travelling on the road when he stops you randomly? No thankfully. But there is corruption - it's well known. We all know the examples and cases. I'm glad I'm not in eastern Europe, Africa or South America but tbh I'd just rather there was no corruption at all.

Chazz Michael Michaels

trichome wrote: »

As somebody who works in the public service I totally agree. Our politians are corrupt to the core and were as backwards as they come. Just look at our patheic broadband coverage/speeds.

I know, and when I went to coffee machine this morning my coffee came out luke warm. This is bull****...


Meanwhile, in Cambodia...

KyussBishop

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I see your point but it's impossible for me to NOT make a comparison to the country I live in. I don't mean to make light of corruption in Ireland but my posts were in response to the hyperbole, which is a very consistent feature to these threads and ruins discussion in my opinion.

I'd be happy enough now to concentrate on corruption in Ireland now that I've made my point.

You don't need to compare to other countries at all - can just pan the hyperbole, for being hyperbole.

I think what ruins the discussion usually, is people playing-down corruption - whether they intend it or not; that's far more harmful than hyperbole.

I mean, you said the above, then go on to thank this:

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I know, and when I went to coffee machine this morning my coffee came out luke warm. This is bull****...


Meanwhile, in Cambodia...

When there was nothing wrong with trichome's post, and when trichome didn't say anything like "Ireland is the worst" etc..

Chazz Michael Michaels

KyussBishop wrote: »

You don't need to compare to other countries at all - can just pan the hyperbole, for being hyperbole.

I think what ruins the discussion usually, is people playing-down corruption - whether they intend it or not; that's far more harmful than hyperbole.

I mean, you said the above, then go on to thank this:


When there was nothing wrong with trichome's post, and when trichome didn't say anything like "Ireland is the worst" etc..

Why are airplane seats so uncomfortable? I hate this country, it sucks.

KyussBishop

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Why are airplane seats so uncomfortable? I hate this country, it sucks.

So you think corruption in Ireland, is a triviality comparable to uncomfortable airplane seats, and - in the same vein - complaining about it is an exercise in pettiness?

So, people thanking this guys post: Know what you're thanking, because that's contributing to playing down corruption.

Chazz Michael Michaels

KyussBishop wrote: »

So you think corruption in Ireland, is a triviality comparable to uncomfortable airplane seats, and - in the same vein - complaining about it is an exercise in pettiness?

So, people thanking this guys post: Know what you're thanking, because that's contributing to playing down corruption.

Hey, I'm over here, stop speaking to that scarecrow.

KyussBishop

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Hey, I'm over here, stop speaking to that scarecrow.

If my interpretation is wrong, what are you saying in that post?

Chazz Michael Michaels

KyussBishop wrote: »

If my interpretation is wrong, what are you saying in that post?

This thread is about two things.

BuilderPlumber

KyussBishop wrote: »

So you think corruption in Ireland, is a triviality comparable to uncomfortable airplane seats, and - in the same vein - complaining about it is an exercise in pettiness?

So, people thanking this guys post: Know what you're thanking, because that's contributing to playing down corruption.

In the grand scheme of things, Ireland is one of the better countries in the world. Sure, there are ones you can name like Somalia, Eritrea, North Korea and Ethiopia that are far, far worse. But these are third world dictatorships that have the death penalty, cults around their leaders and all that jazz.

Ireland is also decidedly less corrupt than the world's superpowers. Certainly, big business lobby groups esp. arms industry have a corrupting influence over US, Israel, etc. There are also of course countries in Europe that are far more corrupt like Italy and even France is going this way these times.

BUT Ireland is a corrupt country for its type. For a small and relatively unimportant country, we are massively corrupt. Corruption comes in many forms: the top getting away with everything, excessive salaries, no punishment for misappropriating funds. Corruption is more than just government too: in Ireland, we have seen banks, academic institutes, and so-called quangoes all practice total corruption.

We are no superpower. We are not really democratic (there is no such thing) but we are not a total out and out dictatorship like North Korea and far from it. But we cannot compare ourselves to these: these are different animals. What we need to compare ourselves to is other similar countries to us. Then, we can judge if we are above or below the average corruption for our type.

Legs.Eleven

You don't need to compare to other countries at all - can just pan the hyperbole, for being hyperbole.

I think what ruins the discussion usually, is people playing-down corruption - whether they intend it or not; that's far more harmful than hyperbole.

Eh.....yeah. You've made your point. Grand. You don't need to repeatedly make the same point when I said I'd stop.

I mean, you said the above, then go on to thank this:


When there was nothing wrong with trichome's post, and when trichome didn't say anything like "Ireland is the worst" etc..

I thanked it cos I thought it was a funny comment.

Tbh you going on and on about this ruining the discussion. I said I'd leave it.

KyussBishop

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things, Ireland is one of the better countries in the world. Sure, there are ones you can name like Somalia, Eritrea, North Korea and Ethiopia that are far, far worse. But these are third world dictatorships that have the death penalty, cults around their leaders and all that jazz.

Ireland is also decidedly less corrupt than the world's superpowers. Certainly, big business lobby groups esp. arms industry have a corrupting influence over US, Israel, etc. There are also of course countries in Europe that are far more corrupt like Italy and even France is going this way these times.

BUT Ireland is a corrupt country for its type. For a small and relatively unimportant country, we are massively corrupt. Corruption comes in many forms: the top getting away with everything, excessive salaries, no punishment for misappropriating funds. Corruption is more than just government too: in Ireland, we have seen banks, academic institutes, and so-called quangoes all practice total corruption.

We are no superpower. We are not really democratic (there is no such thing) but we are not a total out and out dictatorship like North Korea and far from it. But we cannot compare ourselves to these: these are different animals. What we need to compare ourselves to is other similar countries to us. Then, we can judge if we are above or below the average corruption for our type.

We shouldn't compare ourselves to anyone - if there is corruption, wherever it is, it should be stamped out - and we shouldn't let comparisons to other places, get in the way of focusing on that.

BuilderPlumber

KyussBishop wrote: »

We shouldn't compare ourselves to anyone - if there is corruption, wherever it is, it should be stamped out - and we shouldn't let comparisons to other places, get in the way of focusing on that.

Exactly.

BuilderPlumber

KyussBishop wrote: »

We shouldn't compare ourselves to anyone - if there is corruption, wherever it is, it should be stamped out - and we shouldn't let comparisons to other places, get in the way of focusing on that.

Corruption spreads like wildfire when it takes root in any country. In Ireland, corruption was always a factor ever since Dev collected money to set up the press. In my life time, I remember the following corruption scandals (I'm sure I have forgotten a few!!):

-State collusion with the IRA: most notably the arms trial.
-The Telecom scandal: involved Charlie Haughey and his govt.
-The beef tribunal: involved Haughey and Goodman.
-Various phone tappings. Mostly Fianna Fail related.
-Fundraising for Brian Lenihan Sr's operation and the money kept by Haughey associates.
-Greencore scandal: Haughey and co again.
-The Fr Smith/Harry Whelahan affair: Albert Reynold's govt falls and Bertie is in on the act to hang Reynolds.
-P. Flynn. Yes, this and the next few only need a name!!
-Ray Burke.
-Frank Dunlop.
-Liam Lawlor.
-Bertie Ahern.
-Anglo Irish bank/developers scandal: involved Bertie's govt hugely.
-Politicians especially since Bertie's time living it up while the country is in recession.
-Cutbacks to people's jobs and salaries while the top cream it off.
-The HSE.
-The UCC financial irregularities.
-The WIT financial irregularities and flamboyant lifestyle of its head.
-Irish Water.
-CRC.
-G-SOC.

That's the history of this state over the past 40 years or so. Two individuals account for a lot of the above and their first names are Charles and Bartholemew!

dxhound2005

KyussBishop wrote: »

We shouldn't compare ourselves to anyone - if there is corruption, wherever it is, it should be stamped out - and we shouldn't let comparisons to other places, get in the way of focusing on that.

Maybe you could tell us how other countries stamped out corruption.

KyussBishop

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Corruption spreads like wildfire when it takes root in any country. In Ireland, corruption was always a factor ever since Dev collected money to set up the press. In my life time, I remember the following corruption scandals (I'm sure I have forgotten a few!!):

-State collusion with the IRA: most notably the arms trial.
-The Telecom scandal: involved Charlie Haughey and his govt.
-The beef tribunal: involved Haughey and Goodman.
-Various phone tappings. Mostly Fianna Fail related.
-Fundraising for Brian Lenihan Sr's operation and the money kept by Haughey associates.
-Greencore scandal: Haughey and co again.
-The Fr Smith/Harry Whelahan affair: Albert Reynold's govt falls and Bertie is in on the act to hang Reynolds.
-P. Flynn. Yes, this and the next few only need a name!!
-Ray Burke.
-Frank Dunlop.
-Liam Lawlor.
-Bertie Ahern.
-Anglo Irish bank/developers scandal: involved Bertie's govt hugely.
-Politicians especially since Bertie's time living it up while the country is in recession.
-Cutbacks to people's jobs and salaries while the top cream it off.
-The HSE.
-The UCC financial irregularities.
-The WIT financial irregularities and flamboyant lifestyle of its head.
-Irish Water.
-CRC.
-G-SOC.

That's the history of this state over the past 40 years or so. Two individuals account for a lot of the above and their first names are Charles and Bartholemew!

I have to say, I'm not up to scratch on the history of Irish corruption - though I got this book the other day, which looks like it should be a good primer (handy having everything - except the most recent tribunals - referenceable in one place):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-Corruption-Ireland-1922-Crooked/dp/0719086884

BuilderPlumber

KyussBishop wrote: »

I have to say, I'm not up to scratch on the history of Irish corruption - though I got this book the other day, which looks like it should be a good primer (handy having everything - except the most recent tribunals - referenceable in one place):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-Corruption-Ireland-1922-Crooked/dp/0719086884

Yes. This is an excellent book and gives a history of most of the ones I listed. For a country of its size and population, we are essentially riddled with corruption. But Why? Whatever the reason, our system seems to breed it. Our governments, our banks, our semi state bodies, our academic institutions, our health system, our church and of course big businessmen with friends in high places all have proven to be corrupt.

Corruption has roots in many things (greed, ego, insecurities, debt, funding a lavish lifestyle, etc.) and some people laugh it off and say that a 'bit of a fiddle' is what oils the wheels of the state. This attitude sickens me. You would swear corruption was a victimless crime. Corruption is the reason for some of these issues (both Irish and non Irish examples):

-Why Ireland's unemployment rate is so high.
-Why there is not enough money to fund services for the disabled, elderly, etc.
-Why many educated young people have to emigrate.
-Why American forces trashed Iraq in 2003 leaving a hopeless anarchic post apocalypse land that would not be out of place in a Mad Max film.
-Why the Nazis killed so many people and protected their greedy thieving regime at all costs.

I could go on and on. In Ireland, we have two main types of corruption:

1. Financial. That is the Haughey and Ahern scandals and the like. Also, those in the banks, WIT, Irish Water, etc.
2. Coverup scandals: The banks come into this again as do Fianna Failers defending Bertie. Also, of course, the church covering up abuse and defending abusers.

Both types are sickening. And Irish society is riddled with both and often both in the one event.

SpaceTime

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Maybe you could tell us how other countries stamped out corruption.

Two words : transparency and accountability.

We have historically lacked transparency in various key decision making areas. It's improving but, it could be speeded up.

Whistle blower origin protection legislation for example.

Forcing standards of accounting and publication on all publicly funded bodies, including not-for-profits in health and education.

Etc