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Borrow €400k from AIB and only pay back €250k

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    #212
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    drumswan wrote: »
    Not stark at all, moving to the UK followed by a subsistence existence on welfare vs continuing to live in privately owned four hundred thousand euro house with two incomes for a knockdown mortgage rate. You are talking like these are somehow equivalent.

    This is my last post on this thread. If the choice was working your entire life paying off a loan and not even owning the house at the end of it what would you do? I suggested social welfare after a UK bankruptcy as that is the minimum they could expect after just 12 months in the UK. I also mentioned that they can return to the workforce debt-free. Both are far better options than working for the bank and that is the economic reality that is going to have to be faced in this and tens of thousands of other cases.


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    #213
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Ayla Most Sequel wrote: »
    Debt for equity swap.

    He ignored this option because it doesnt suit his argument.

    What is supposed to happen is that those who are financially doing well are supposed to be able to buy or rent a particular type of home in a particular type of area. This provides incentive for people to work hard and make sensible, prudent financial decision which benefit the ecomony as a whole. Instead what is happening is that we have people like these sitting pretty, creating artificial scarcity, driving rents and property prices up and penalising the people who are supposed to be driving the recovery, sucking more of their money into the property black hole.


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    #214
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    This is my last post on this thread. If the choice was working your entire life paying off a loan and not even owning the house at the end of it what would you do? I suggested social welfare after a UK bankruptcy as that is the minimum they could expect after just 12 months in the UK. I also mentioned that they can return to the workforce debt-free. Both are far better options than working for the bank and that is the economic reality that is going to have to be faced in this and tens of thousands of other cases.
    There are ALREADY hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland who will work their entire lives paying for housing who wont own a property at the end of it. Thats REALITY.

    Owning property is not a god given right, YOU need to pay for it, not the bank, nor the taxpayer, or your neighbour - YOU.


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    #215
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    This is my last post on this thread. If the choice was working your entire life paying off a loan and not even owning the house at the end of it what would you do? I suggested social welfare after a UK bankruptcy as that is the minimum they could expect after just 12 months in the UK. I also mentioned that they can return to the workforce debt-free. Both are far better options than working for the bank and that is the economic reality that is going to have to be faced in this and tens of thousands of other cases.


    But its ok for the rest of us to have to pay rent plus the mortgages of people like this, or our own mortgages plus the mortgages of people like this? We are all "working for the bank" already, now we will be working for the bank and defaulters.


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    #216
    who_ru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭who_ru


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/social-housing-waiting-lists-indicate-that-new-phase-of-construction-is-now-needed-1.1648604

    90,000 on the social housing waiting list....waiting.......waiting.......waiting.


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    #217
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users Posts: 5,146 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Suffer the greedy Celtic Tigers and chancers who borrowed/lived & partied beyond their means, for they shall receive mercy :o:(:mad:

    ..........and they can now LOL @ the rest of us who are paying for it !!


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    #218
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Yes the bank probably will get more money this way, so from the banks point of view, letting these deadbeats off with 150K is the lesser of two evils. But that's not really the point.
    This family is off the hook for a large portion of their mortgage, a sum that would amount to giving somebody a free house in most of the country. And who pays for that? the tax payer.
    I thought I was being smart not buying a house in the biggest property bubble in history. Turn's out I was a huge f**cking eejit. Here I am still renting AND paying other peoples mortgages, I can't afford kids but I pay for other people's kids. If you're smart enough to live within your means in this country you should always carry Vaseline and knee pads.

    Unfortunate image, but very true.
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Did I miss something? Do you know this is happening or is it a belief you have?

    Ehhh hello!!
    this is AIB we are talking about.

    The bank that gave us ICI, Rusnak, non resident accounts, overcharging, get the financial regulator to help shoot their internal auditor that whistleblew and spilled the beans, Nevis offshore hidden share/pension schemes, offshoot stock broking firms convincing clients to invest in sinking bank, etc.

    They have had a bigger stench of sh** about them than all the sewage plants in Ireland put together.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #219
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,438 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    green_screen wrote: »
    Ah sure, let's just take the houses from them and leave them homeless, probably costing the taxpayer even more to rehome them.


    The loss of a home does not imply that the State would have to house them.

    Example:

    Unaffordable mortgage = 2000 pm

    Arrears - repossess

    Move into accomm that they can afford at, say, 1000 pm.


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    #220
    Michael54321
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Michael54321


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    Suffer the greedy Celtic Tigers and chancers who borrowed/lived & partied beyond their means, for they shall receive mercy :o:(:mad:

    ..........and they can now LOL @ the rest of us who are paying for it !!

    stupid comment to make, what age are you ?....10 were you around during the tiger


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    #221
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    The Irish Times is reporting another 2 debt forgiveness deals by AIB, both in excess of 140k each (no further details available).


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    #222
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    The Irish Times is reporting another 2 debt forgiveness deals by AIB, both in excess of 140k each (no further details available).

    If your a tax payer grab hold of some lub bend over and get ready for the rapping from these deals...How phucking dare they ramp this up..


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    #223
    Michael54321
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Michael54321


    it is the cheapest option for the tax payer in the long run


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    #224
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is the cheapest option for the tax payer in the long run

    How is that? how is letting off someone of 50% of their mortgage repayments straight away cheaper? If they sold the house and any other assets the couple had they would recoup 50% + so either back up your claim or stop spinning..You also do not take into account the effect this is going to have..Already the papers are reporting 2 other deals of 140+ in AIB..Everyone now will want their slice of the magic pie provided by the phucking magic tax payer money tree..Cheaper in the long run..REALLY


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    #225
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is the cheapest option for the tax payer in the long run

    If you're considering the long run to be 40-50 years, and factoring inflation into the equation- then yes. Right here, right now, nope......


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    #226
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    If you're considering the long run to be 40-50 years, and factoring inflation into the equation- then yes. Right here, right now, nope......

    Also it wont be cheaper even in the long run we have taken out a loan for these write downs which will paid off over the next 50 odd years.


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    #227
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is the cheapest option for the tax payer in the long run

    May not be. This could lead to strategic defaulting which we will have to pay for. For policy reasons alone this should not have been allowed.


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    #228
    Michael54321
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Michael54321


    it is cheaper, any or the people who are after getting debt write off's are still paying back more than the house is worth. If the bank evicted them and they went bankrupt, the local authority would have to house them, if they were in certain jobs like accountants or Garda they would loose their job for being bankrupt. THey would then be in a local authority house on social welfare


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    #229
    Michael54321
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Michael54321


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Also it wont be cheaper even in the long run we have taken out a loan for these write downs which will paid off over the next 50 odd years.

    I believe the husband from the 1st write down was in his 50s, he would have to work until he was more than 100


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    #230
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    I believe the husband from the 1st write down was in his 50s, he would have to work until he was more than 100

    Well surely he has a life insurance the bank could get the cash back on his death and if things keep up like this in this country then I and the other tax payers wont be able to retire full stop as there will be feck all left for pensions...Already retirement age has gone from 65 to 67 to 68..by the time I retire it will be up to 75..But no one has the cop to understand that a simple write down for this person has repercussions and links to the spend/tax take and how much we borrow as a nation...So less of the emotive crap as there are people on housing lists with sick kids who could probably have bought this house or rented it from the bank..So for every bleeding heart story for someone getting a deal there are 3/4 for those who are being phucked over by this deal


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    #231
    mjv2ydratu679c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭mjv2ydratu679c


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is the cheapest option for the tax payer in the long run

    Nope - debt for equity would be cheaper.


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    #232
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users Posts: 17,041 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is cheaper, any or the people who are after getting debt write off's are still paying back more than the house is worth. If the bank evicted them and they went bankrupt, the local authority would have to house them, if they were in certain jobs like accountants or Garda they would loose their job for being bankrupt. THey would then be in a local authority house on social welfare

    This whole thing about negative equity is such a sham. At the time they agreed the house was worth 400k, and were happy to buy it. What impact does it have on them if the market thinks the value has now gone down?

    As far as I am concerned negative equity only impacts on people who buy to sell, and thats just a bad investment. Like shares or anything else, where a bad investment = loosing money, not getting a bail-out.


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    #233
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    green_screen wrote: »
    Ah sure, let's just take the houses from them and leave them homeless, probably costing the taxpayer even more to rehome them.

    People made mistakes, big fcuking deal. I'd rather my taxes go towards housing somebody /keeping them in their home, than on the numerous people I know defrauding the social welfare.

    It's always the same false dichotomies wheeled out. Would you not rather your taxes went on improving everyones lives? Better facilities for all rather than a cash windfall for a family of 4.


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    #234
    Thomas D
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    I can only hope that this family are shunned in the local community like the beggars they are. I'd make sure I'd be up asking for a pint any time I saw someone like them out in the pub.


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    #235
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Thomas D wrote: »
    It's always the same false dichotomies wheeled out. Would you not rather your taxes went on improving everyones lives? Better facilities for all rather than a cash windfall for a family of 4.

    If the government want to be fair about this ..all deals should be off the table and taxes cut..giving Everyone Working a bit more cash , helping those who are snowed under with their mortgage, but the current picking and choosing vested interest groups such as mortgage holders is a farce


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    #236
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,656 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    Did I miss something? Do you know this is happening or is it a belief you have?

    It's a belief I have, I have no doubt in my mind at some stage in the future that we will be hearing about how AIB employees got favourable mortgage write offs. I hope I'm wrong on this but this is Ireland.

    Do you think that the system is straight and will treat all people equally ?


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    #237
    skafish
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭skafish


    Michael54321 wrote: »
    it is cheaper, any or the people who are after getting debt write off's are still paying back more than the house is worth. If the bank evicted them and they went bankrupt, the local authority would have to house them, if they were in certain jobs like accountants or Garda they would loose their job for being bankrupt. THey would then be in a local authority house on social welfare

    Negative Equity? What has that got to do with this situation? If the reports are correct, these people have no intention of moving, so the current value of the property is only relevant to the bank, and then only if they re posess.
    Most of the people I know are in negative equity. I am. So what?
    I borrowed money from a financial institution. I signed what I understood to be a legally binding contract to repay that money, along with an agreed amount of interest. The fact that I used that money to buy a house that is currently worth about half what I paid for it in no way lessens my obligation to repay what I agreed to repay.

    Or rather, it didn't until this act of lunacy.

    My income has been cut. My wife is currently out of work.

    By the logic of this write down, the bank (sorry, every tax payer in the country) should pay for my car. Its only worth about 25% of what I paid for it 6 years ago. I cant afford to clear my credit card this month (electricity and oil take priority this month). Will all you nice people out there pay it for me?

    Or will I just act like a mature adult, take responsibility for my actions, and spread out the payments. Sure, it will cost a bit of extra interest, and we won't have much of a family holiday this year. A few day trips, a few picnics on the beach. Great.

    But muppets or cute hoers who abused the system and refuse to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions?

    Aw, hell, lets just give them a hand out of €150K. My kids and grandkids will pay their mortgage, so they don't have to.

    I'm not so much annoyed at the reduction in the debt level, by the way. It may well be that this is the most beneficial arrangement for the bank, as has been stated.

    What I find most galling is that if, or rather, when circumstances improve for this family, the bank, which, by the way is owned by us, the citizens of the country, has no recourse to reclaim some or all of this write down.

    Are there alternatives?
    Certainly, many have already been suggested. Here is another:

    This family can no longer afford to live in their current house. why not swap this house for another that they can afford, and move the owners of the cheaper house (or one with the mortgage paid, or almost paid) and where the owners are prepared to and can afford to take on the additional debt?


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    #238
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Ayla Most Sequel wrote: »
    Nope - debt for equity would be cheaper.

    Fancy putting some figures on that, detailing why the person would choose debt for equity swap rather than dump the entire debt and go bankrupt in UK.


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    #239
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    David Hall reports receiving in excess of 1000 inquiries from people in not dissimilar positions to the couple who received the 140k debt forgiveness, in the last week, as Taoiseach Enda Kenny calls AIB's move a great deal for the borrowers.........

    The Indo are reporting this in a story entitled- New Wave of Families seek debt deals

    I'm appalled. Why should anyone bother paying their mortgages? There are hundreds of thousands of struggling families somehow managing to pay their bills- having cut back on absolutely everything- who are about to be hit with a slew of further stealth taxes- yet we have these shenanigans going on.........

    Arrrrgghhhhhhh........


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    #240
    mjv2ydratu679c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭mjv2ydratu679c


    OMD wrote: »
    Fancy putting some figures on that, detailing why the person would choose debt for equity swap rather than dump the entire debt and go bankrupt in UK.

    30% of loan written off Bank gets 30% equity in house, 40% etc... it's not rocket science.

    If the person doesn't like it fine they can go to the UK and go bankrupt which is not the bed of roses a lot of people on this thread make it out to be. Goodbye chances of ever owning a house again or getting a car loan. It's usually taken as a very last resort.

    Not sure why your so against the debt for equity swap idea - obviously your one of the few who is happy to pay extra taxes & higher rents or cope with higher interest rates on your mortgage to pay for these no strings attached gifts.


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    #241
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,995 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    OMD wrote: »
    Fancy putting some figures on that, detailing why the person would choose debt for equity swap rather than dump the entire debt and go bankrupt in UK.

    In this case? The loss of two jobs and their net income circa 900k over 15 years, a capital payment of 1.5 times the gross wage of one earner lost including inflation and wage rises, pension contributions for close 15 years lost, including one defined benefits pension, its very unlikely they will find employment again at their age in this economy. And of course no house, cars or assets of any kind.

    Why do you assume bankruptcy in England is a great option?


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