Consultants and doctors

Metal_Maiden

Muise... wrote: »

That's what nurses are for. Doctors do the intellectual, analytical stuff. Sometimes they overlap, but that's the general idea.



Not sure if serious...

If not, I have snark-crush.

See it's not the bedside manner I have an issue with so much as the confident ignorance. Some of them will issue pronouncements on a condition they have barely heard of and never dealt with before. They act as if they know what they're talking about even if they completely don't. It doesn't bother me so much when they just admit 'I don't know'. I mean, it would be great if they tried to find out beyond the most basic of tests, or read even a brief summary of my condition, but I suppose this isn't, y'know, fairyland.

steddyeddy

Lucas Castroman wrote: »

If you're such an expert on your own condition why do you feel the need to attend this doctor.
It's obvious from your post why he/she might be irritated by you.

I could tell you more about the biochemistry of some illnesses than most consultants but I will still attend a doctor. Are people supposed to pretend not to be experts in case they make a consultant uncomfortable?

Czarcasm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I could tell you more about the biochemistry of some illnesses than most consultants but I will still attend a doctor. Are people supposed to pretend not to be experts in case they make a consultant uncomfortable?

Eddy it's the patients that think they're experts on their own illnesses that make everybody uncomfortable. The OP is a perfect example of this phenomenon. To tell a medical professional that they "really have no idea what my condition feels like", that's just arrogant, and to meet so many medical professionals that are so horrible, well, that's either incredibly unfortunate as to be odds on impossible, or far more likely that it's the attitude of the patient themselves that acts like a condescending know-it-all.

kupus

Czarcasm wrote: »

Eddy it's the patients that think they're experts on their own illnesses that make everybody uncomfortable. The OP is a perfect example of this phenomenon. To tell a medical professional that they "really have no idea what my condition feels like", that's just arrogant, and to meet so many medical professionals that are so horrible, well, that's either incredibly unfortunate as to be odds on impossible, or far more likely that it's the attitude of the patient themselves that acts like a condescending know-it-all.

No its not the the attitude of the patients. Ive had run ins in the past with doctors and i fully concur with the OP. A lot of them are t1ts.
They dont liked to be questioned on their authority and being made to look like a fool. and will start this condescending plamase sh1t that sends me up the wall even further.
And as for taking blame that they fcuked up. FOrget about it.

I seem to remember another group of people who thought they were infallible.
Maybe the doctors have taken on the mantle of the priests are always right mentality nowadays.
oh and one more thing i saw recently that doctors would not rat out another doctor if that doc was incapable of doing work. Gotta love the loyalty there over their patients customers well being.

Czarcasm

kupus wrote: »

No its not the the attitude of the patients. Ive had run ins in the past with doctors and i fully concur with the OP. A lot of them are t1ts.
They dont liked to be questioned on their authority and being made to look like a fool. and will start this condescending plamase sh1t that sends me up the wall even further.

Who DOES like to be questioned and made to look like a fool when they have at least seven years of study and probably ten more years of experience over one person that spent a few evenings poring over the internet and thinks that must mean they know better than the cardiologist, the neurologist, or the orthapaedic consultant that will see more people and research more information than that person ever will in their lifetime.

And as for taking blame that they fcuked up. FOrget about it.

And as for the arrogance of the patient thinking that they might NOT actually know better than the person that does this shìt for a living, forget about it indeed.

I seem to remember another group of people who thought they were infallible.
Maybe the doctors have taken on the mantle of the priests nowadays.

Yeah, completely the same thing of course.

pragmatic1

I find most consultants courteous and informative when asked. Some can be dismissing, but when you consider their level of expertise and the level of pressure they work under, I think they can be cut some slack.

JuliusCaesar

Lucas Castroman wrote: »

If you're such an expert on your own condition why do you feel the need to attend this doctor.
It's obvious from your post why he/she might be irritated by you.

I didn't say I was an expert on my condition, although I had read up the peer-reviewed papers on it - I was an expert on a related condition which is in my field. There is an overlap between medicine and psychophysiology (a field within psychology) you may be surprised to hear.

Adamantium

TheZohan wrote: »

Sounds like Lupus.

or Lyme disease, an incredible amount of lupus (and POTS for that matter) cases are now been revealed caused by misdiagnosed Lyme cases. Lyme has become known as "the great imitator", due to the vast amount of other conditions it resembles,as weLL as the furore in the US in particular over whether it is even a real thing. Greatest medical tragedy of the 21st century.

There are more 30 times more people been diagonsed with Long term Lyme than are HIV positive in the USA. It's in the 100's of thousands. I'll get the link to those statistics if I can.

Under our skin is a documentary on the epidemic and the war in the medical community over it.

To the OP, my intention is not to divert you from your current course of treatment or send you down any dark dead end alleys!

Adamantium

Czarcasm wrote: »

Eddy it's the patients that think they're experts on their own illnesses that make everybody uncomfortable. The OP is a perfect example of this phenomenon. To tell a medical professional that they "really have no idea what my condition feels like", that's just arrogant

The truth is never arrogant, when it's the truth. It's not like you have only one life..... oh wait a minute...

Czarcasm

Adamantium wrote: »

or Lyme disease, an incredible amount of lupus (and POTS for that matter) cases are now been revealed caused by misdiagnosed Lyme cases. Lyme has become known as "the great imitator", due to the vast amount of other conditions it resembles,as weLL as the furore in the US in particular over whether it is even a real thing. Greatest medical tragedy of the 21st century.

There are more 30 times more people been diagonsed with Long term Lyme than are HIV positive in the USA. It's in the 100's of thousands. I'll get the link to those statistics if I can.

Under our skin is a documentary on the epidemic and the war in the medical community over it.

To the OP, my intention is not to divert you from your current course of treatment or send you down any dark dead end alleys!

Too late for that now Adamantium, the OP will already have blithely ignored this part of your post and have a new tab open googling Lyme disease already, printed it out and ready to bring with them to shove it in their consultant's face in that "Up yours! This is what I have!" fashion.

MS.ing

doctor =/= consultant

just sayin, unless you know for a fact (rare) that he/she is, the chances are you are talking to one of the doctors on his team made up of different levels of seniority, which CONSULT with the consultant, thats why they are called that.

consultants are not the guys in the trenches (thats the doctors) they are the generals

Adamantium

MS.ing wrote: »

doctor =/= consultant

consultants are not the guys in the trenches (thats the doctors) they are the generals

It explains why many won't get their hands dirty, unless it's pull to your wallet, out of your face down in the mud cold dead corpse

davo10

Consultants are arrogant, self assured and have God complexes. And that's just the type of consultant I want treating me and my family.

I want him/her to feel that if I need surgery they can defy the odds and cure me, God can't do that. If I'm going in to surgery, I don't want them worrying about the patient they operated on before me or John who died this morning from complications. God doesn't answer a beeper at 3am when some kids come in to A&E without their limbs after a car crash or when Dad has a heart attack. HE isn't going to cure your cancer, bypass that blocked artery, put those bones back together the right way, restore your sight etc but that arrogant arsehole you dislike so much just might.

When I see a consultant I want him to make me believe that he/she can make me better, to inspire me with confidence by projecting an air of confidence in their opinions, I don't want them changing their opinion just because I tell them about some some research I googled, that wouldn't give me confidence.

I have GP and consultant friends and they tell me that the first 10 mins of an appointment are often spent convincing a patient what they don't have (google) before they can discuss the ailment they do have.

For all those who say Doctors are dispassionate or detached from their patients ask your self if you could go in to a room and do this, tell a family that despite the Doctors best efforts their son/daughter/mother/father etc has died from their illness/injuries. Sympathise with them while watching their lives fall apart, then leave the room, gather yourself for a moment and then go back to your job of treating sick people and saving lives. Maybe you could do that, I couldn't, maybe that's why they come across as uncaring?

In relation to the intelligence/points argument, sorry but I want a bright spark working on my children not someone who got a D in pass maths and who isn't good at problem solving.

Lastly, you are not paying €150 to see the consultant, you can do that for nothing in the public system, you are paying €150 to jump the que and see him/her in their private consulting rooms in weeks rather than months/years. The advice/diagnosis/treatment will be the same whether you pay or not.

MS.ing

Adamantium wrote: »

It explains why many won't get their hands dirty, unless it's pull to your wallet, out of your face down in the mud cold dead corpse

no its because they are a wealth of knowledge on their discipline, and so are the go to man for the doctors to learn from and for him to pass the knowledge on to for when he retires and an up and coming consultant steps in to fill his shoes. consultants teach doctors, by doctors consulting with them. its an exchange of ideas and experience and opinion.

when your doctor leaves the room he is consulting with colleagues alot of the time (if you are in a day clinic situation for one)

look Im not getting into this, they are a precious resource whether one realises or not, time is limited in hospitals, you (again one) are not the only patient he has, and without offending the drama lamas here, who are the ones coming across as the ones with the god complex, you have to just suck it up and trust his judgement, which is what its coming across in this thread. mistrust.

there are a number of phases of.......life altering news (grief)

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

the sooner or later you come to terms with the cards you were dealt the quicker you get to acceptance.

Adamantium

MS.ing wrote: »

no its because they are a wealth of knowledge on their discipline, and so are the go to man for the doctors to learn from and for him to pass the knowledge on to for when he retires and an up and coming consultant steps in to fill his shoes. consultants teach doctors, by doctors consulting with them. its an exchange of ideas and experience and opinion.

when your doctor leaves the room he is consulting with colleagues alot of the time (if you are in a day clinic situation for one)

look Im not getting into this, they are a precious resource whether one realises or not, time is limited in hospitals, you (again one) are not the only patient he has, and without offending the drama lamas here, who are the ones coming across as the ones with the god complex, you have to just suck it up and trust his judgement, which is what its coming across in this thread. mistrust.

there are a number of phases of.......life altering news (grief)

denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance

the sooner or later you come to terms with the cards you were dealt the quicker you get to acceptance.

It was a joke, jeez.

MS.ing

Adamantium wrote: »

You kicked my arse into touch, I will now use the losing mans retort. it was a joke jeez.

there we go.

Adamantium

MS.ing wrote: »

there we go.

Look I was trying to offer some levity to the OP and myself, the thread in general, and the OP's his/her ordeals in particular in what is an unimaginable situation and the harsh financial implications which (often) go along with it. Nobody writes a first post like that and does so for happy reasons.

Yeah you're an ass kicker, good for you. You think that was loss? That wasn't loss, if it was you've haven't lived! What exactly did I lose? Your respect? **** me I've been losing for years long before you!

Would you like to offer any help now that you're at sitting at a keyboard that a doctor couldn't otherwise offer at this hour of the night? It's not like the OP probably hasn't heard the 5 stages of grief ad nauseum already, who simply just wants to be heard and feel less alone in his/her predicament.

Next time you come to a thread try to be less presumptious and more sympathetic, hell why not have the novel idea of letting the said person grieve over the breakdown of their body, doesn't it say so in your five steps?

kupus

Czarcasm wrote: »

the OP will have a new tab open googling Lyme disease already, printed it out and ready to bring with them to shove it in their consultant's face in that "Up yours! This is what I have!" fashion.

Good heavens, imagine someone who has an opinion on whats wrong with them.
First rrule of business. the customer is always right. now the customer may be wrong 100% and maybe the biggest d!ck in the world but he's still right. Its upto the consultant to change the customers mind. Its up to the consultant to put the customer at ease and then treat customer in whatever way paossible.

davo10 wrote: »

Consultants are arrogant, self assured and have God complexes. And that's just the type of consultant I want treating me and my family.

I have no problem with people that are arrogant, self assured and have god complexes, I know quite a few people like that and its always a pleasure talking with them. Its even better when you get a few of them in the same room. you can see the fireworks from the moon.

THe problem I have is when the arrogance is not backed up by the quality of work. it just means your just another arrogant spoofer.

Czarcasm

kupus wrote: »

Good heavens, imagine someone who has an opinion on whats wrong with them.
First rrule of business. the customer is always right. now the customer may be wrong 100% and maybe the biggest d!ck in the world but he's still right. Its upto the consultant to change the customers mind. Its up to the consultant to put the customer at ease and then treat customer in whatever way paossible.

We've discussed this before y'know -

kupus wrote: »

so you are saying its ok for a doctor to do what they like instead of listening to you as a paying customer.

1st rule of business: the customer is ALWAYS RIGHT.

And my answer now is still the same as it was back then -

Czarcasm wrote: »

Except that a doctors surgery is not a business, and you are not a customer. You are a patient, and an uninformed one at that. The doctor has seven years of medical studies up on you for a start, and then they will see more colds, flus, etc, on a daily basis than you ever will.

As for your assertion that the customer is always right- no they sure as hell aren't, especially an uninformed or misinformed customer (such as those who "know their rights!" and misinterpret the sale of goods and services acts), or in this particular instance- a person who self diagnoses and presents with symptoms of emotional distress.

davo10

kupus wrote: »

First rrule of business. the customer is always right.

THe problem I have is when the arrogance is not backed up by the quality of work. it just means your just another arrogant spoofer.

I would presume the "back up" is the 20 years if training it typically takes to be a consultant. As for "spoofer", my guess is they would be found out before reaching consultancy status.

The first statement above is just BS, when it comes to medicine/sickness/injury, how is the "customer always right"?.

goose2005

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Honestly I feel its partially to do with the ridiculous points it is in the leaving cert and the pressure that people going for high points feel the need to pick medicine. The result being a segment of them that are in medicine for the wrong reasons and ultimately don't really have much compassion or bed-side manners worth talking about.

There are some very good consultants out there who I couldn't fault. But like every other profession there are a good segment who would probably be happier doing other work but stay for the financial reward.

Most consultants probably qualified long before the points system.

dd972

suicide_circus wrote: »

my father has a medical condition, told by GPs and consultants here that nothing could be done and he would "have to learn to live with it". He decided against this sage advice and now visits his homeland (continental europe) every few months where he receives a broad range of innovative treatments and therapies (for free and no waiting list) and has vastly improved his quality of life. if he had listened to medical professionals here, he would likely be in a wheelchair by now.

Prime example of the Gombeen S**thouse who ends up in these types of positions in Ireland, and I bet you my bottom dollar that those 'experts' over here your father spoke to were either arrogant and aloof or full of hail-fellow-well-met hot air, Ireland does both of these types of people to the max, especially in the professions.

MS.ing

youre all morons, follow your own advice and die. or lose your leg or whatever it is your trying to avoid by having a doctor treat you in the first place.

cause its much better to be dead than wrong :pac:

davo10

There used to be a guy called Steve Jobs, bright guy, knew a bit about computers and gadgets, owned a fruit company or something. One of those Gombeen S***thouses told him he had early stage pancreatic cancer and that a fairly routine surgery was needed. Now Steve, being a bright guy thought he knew better, so like a previous poster wrote, he headed off to another country to have a new, exciting treatment that wasn't recommended in his own country. By the time he realised that the Doc with the God complex was right, it was to late, fruit company is still there but Stevie boy isn't.

MS.ing

davo10 wrote: »

There used to be a guy called Steve Jobs, bright guy, knew a bit about computers and gadgets, owned a fruit company or something. One of those Gombeen S***thouses told him he had early stage pancreatic cancer and that a fairly routine surgery was needed. Now Steve, being a bright guy thought he knew better, so like a previous poster wrote, he headed off to another country to have a new, exciting treatment that wasn't recommended in his own country. By the time he realised that the Doc with the God complex was right, it was to late, fruit company is still there but Stevie boy isn't.

feckin hippies

ABC101

davo10 wrote: »

There used to be a guy called Steve Jobs, bright guy, knew a bit about computers and gadgets, owned a fruit company or something. One of those Gombeen S***thouses told him he had early stage pancreatic cancer and that a fairly routine surgery was needed. Now Steve, being a bright guy thought he knew better, so like a previous poster wrote, he headed off to another country to have a new, exciting treatment that wasn't recommended in his own country. By the time he realised that the Doc with the God complex was right, it was to late, fruit company is still there but Stevie boy isn't.

I think it was the fact that Steve was not ready to be opened up at that time... and also his reality distortion field turned against him, thinking he could cure the cancer by going on a special diet etc etc.

On another occasion... Steve asked doctors not to pump his stomach... but they did so anyway.. and he got some item of food into his lung... and then developed pneumonia. He nearly died.. very touch and go at the time... but he recovered and lived for another 2 years.

MS.ing

ABC101 wrote: »

I think it was the fact that Steve was not ready to be opened up at that time... and also his reality distortion field turned against him, thinking he could cure the cancer by going on a special diet etc etc.

On another occasion... Steve asked doctors not to pump his stomach... but they did so anyway.. and he got some item of food into his lung... and then developed pneumonia. He nearly died.. very touch and go at the time... but he recovered and lived for another 2 years.

ill just leave this here

harvard-cancer-expert-steve-jobs-probably-doomed-himself-with-alternative-medicine

Metal_Maiden

Czarcasm wrote: »

Eddy it's the patients that think they're experts on their own illnesses that make everybody uncomfortable. The OP is a perfect example of this phenomenon. To tell a medical professional that they "really have no idea what my condition feels like", that's just arrogant, and to meet so many medical professionals that are so horrible, well, that's either incredibly unfortunate as to be odds on impossible, or far more likely that it's the attitude of the patient themselves that acts like a condescending know-it-all.

Czarcasm, I have nodded along to doctors many times even when I've known they were factually incorrect. As I said, most of them had never treated my condition before and didn't exactly know about it, if they'd even heard of it. They'd know or understand the basic principle (that underlying BP is too low and the heart goes very fast to compensate), and beyond that add their own ideas that were often directly contradictory from doc to doc. I have had my GP Google my fevers in front of me and take the word of web forums; she at least admitted she had no idea. I have only ever argued with consultants twice, when they were just too condescending and insulting on top of being ignorant. My specialist admitted me to hospital because I couldn't walk, and while I knew there wouldn't be much they could do for me long term, I didn't expect some consultant I'd never seen before in my life to come along and suggest that the problem with my 160 standing heart rate, temperatures and collapses was that I should be ignoring them and should see a psychiatrist. So yeah, I really had to tell him he had no idea what my condition was like. I'd like to see him ignore his vision breaking into little segments after a few steps before he finally passes out. Ludicrously dismissive thing to say, and I wonder if he would have said the same thing to someone other than a young woman.

Czarcasm

Metal_Maiden wrote: »

Ludicrously dismissive thing to say, and I wonder if he would have said the same thing to someone other than a young woman.

Metal_Maiden I'm not trying to undermine your experience at all, I just know that from my own perspective that what doctors don't know, we can help them understand. In my own case I have crippling arthritis caused by a condition that had it been caught at birth using a simple standard test, I wouldn't have arthritis now.

I have a click hip defect that basically wasn't detected as a baby, so I was limping for 22 years and people thought I was putting it on. My GP (who was actually brilliant in fairness) couldn't understand it, so sent me to an orthapaedic consultant, who I wasn't in the room with five minutes when he knew exactly what was wrong.

Another consultant in the Cappagh hospital had just come back from the States where he'd learned a procedure called a ganz osteotomy which would mean I wouldn't need a full hip replacement (well, that was the theory anyway as it was a relatively new procedure!). Turns out ten years later I still need a hip replacement. The consultant got it wrong, but he didn't have a crystal ball at the time either.

My own GP that I have now had only heard of a ganz osteotomy, but the consultant he sent me to wanted to hold off on a hip replacement because I was still too young at 36 he said. I told him I couldn't wait, so he had a team from Beaumont come down and do a consultation. In that 15 years I haven't met a single medical professional I could say was anything but exemplary in how they conducted themselves.

I'm also on medication for a heart scare I had a couple of years back, again, consultants were nothing shy of brilliant, and recently just before Christmas I developed uveitis in my right eye as a result of having arthritis, sent to an eye specialist and was told it may never come back, but if it does, there's a risk I might lose my eyesight. Well it came back, and it pains me like it brought it's mother with it. But there's not a whole pile they can do about it except put me on another course of eye drops, but that's merely delaying the inevitable.

Thing is though, I know they're doing their best, so I can't possibly fault them, they aren't magicians and they don't know it all, but I'd still put my faith in their expertise before I'd go scouring the internet and printing out voodoo treatments for all manner of ailments just so I could suggest I know better than they do. The simple fact is I really don't, and when I don't know something I have to trust that the medical profession are doing their best, because relying on Dr. Google just seems like a piss poor strategy at best.

ABC101

MS.ing wrote: »

ill just leave this here

harvard-cancer-expert-steve-jobs-probably-doomed-himself-with-alternative-medicine

I think you might have misunderstood my post...

When I wrote "the fact that Steve was not ready to be opened up at that time" I was referring to his mental, psychological disposition....not the fact that he had cancer and required surgery quickly.

Steve was a perfectionist...had a powerful ability to create a "reality distortion field".. which he used to empower other people or drive certain situations forward. Sometimes he destroyed people as well.

Unfortunately... this worked against him... and he should have taken the recommendation of the doctors and get onto a proper protein diet... but he did'nt.. and unfortunately paid a heavy price.

I suppose he was in denial... and did not want other hands inside his body cutting him up...

If you want a good read.. "Steve Jobs" by Walter Issacson is a good biography...I'm just coming to the end of it myself at the moment.