Dental advice needed

laoismama

Hi
I've just come back from a visit to my dentist to fix a filling that fell out, as I hadnt been to a dentist on a few years, and to be honest dont like going to them, I knew there was probably going to be bad news.
There was, I need root canal treatment on this tooth and he suggested covering in crown, because I have several other teeth missing from both sides upper and lower he said to restore my ability to chew and not put pressure on my remaining teeth I would need bridges and 2 implants.
Anyway all in all he said I required around €9000 worth of work, and Im flabagasted at the cost.
I know people who have gone abroad to get their teeth done cheaper, and there are some good and bad stories, can anyway point me in the right direction for a good service abroad.
Thks

davo10

laoismama wrote: »

Hi
I've just come back from a visit to my dentist to fix a filling that fell out, as I hadnt been to a dentist on a few years, and to be honest dont like going to them, I knew there was probably going to be bad news.
There was, I need root canal treatment on this tooth and he suggested covering in crown, because I have several other teeth missing from both sides upper and lower he said to restore my ability to chew and not put pressure on my remaining teeth I would need bridges and 2 implants.
Anyway all in all he said I required around €9000 worth of work, and Im flabagasted at the cost.
I know people who have gone abroad to get their teeth done cheaper, and there are some good and bad stories, can anyway point me in the right direction for a good service abroad.
Thks

Have you considered dentures? They will be a lot cheaper.

A molar root canal, crown, two implants, a couple of bridges? That's a heck of a lot of treatment, time, lab fees and ultimately cost, do not underestimate the complexity and amount of treatment involved.

The direction you are looking for is East. Laoismama google "dental treatment abroad" or " implants Budapest" and you should get lots of clinics

Do your research, talk to others who have had the complex treatment you need and find out their experience before you travel. Your treatment is going to be different from someone who had a load of crowns and from someone who had a couple of implants, it's a combination of both and there will be more scope for it to go pear shaped. Treatment like yours will require multiple visits so bare that in mind.

By the way, €9k for two implants, multiple bridges, root canal treatments are crowns may not be excessive, it just seems a lot to you because you need it all at once.

laoismama

davo10 wrote: »

Have you considered dentures? They will be a lot cheaper.

A molar root canal, crown, two implants, a couple of bridges? That's a heck of a lot of treatment, time, lab fees and ultimately cost, do not underestimate the complexity and amount of treatment involved.

The direction you are looking for is East. Laoismama google "dental treatment abroad" or " implants Budapest" and you should get lots of clinics

Do your research, talk to others who have had the complex treatment you need and find out their experience before you travel. Your treatment is going to be different from someone who had a load of crowns and from someone who had a couple of implants, it's a combination of both and there will be more scope for it to go pear shaped. Treatment like yours will require multiple visits so bare that in mind.

By the way, €9k for two implants, multiple bridges, root canal treatments are crowns may not be excessive, it just seems a lot to you because you need it all at once.

Thanks for that will check those but my friends saying Budapest has had alot of bad press lately for dental, anyway cheers for reply

wandererz

A few years ago my wife broke a stem on a crown while on holiday in Kusadasi, Turkey. We found a dentist just up the road from where we were and she was great. It turns out that she gets called into the local hospital for the difficult cases that they can't handle.

She's also worked or done some of her studies at the hospital in Birmingham.
I did my research on her before going in and there are lots of Irish & UK people who have had extensive work done and have nothing but complements.

She advised that the stems used by the dentist here were the old style and shouldn't have been used. She had spent 12000 euro with that dentist here in Ireland!!!

Anyway, the dentist in Turkey charged 145 for the stem replacement and quoted 250 or so for a new crown.

The next day, after my wifes recommendation, i went in for a checkup and she looked at some work for me that another dentist here wasn't certain about and had to get the specialist partner to look at etc.
She said that the procedure wasn't a big deal and to just give her some notice to book me in the next time.

We are booked to go back this June so that my wife can get a root canal and possibly some of her crowns replaced.

Two weeks flight & accommodation worked out to 1000 euro for the two of us.

At that price you could go have as much work done as is comfortable, have a nice sunny holiday for two weeks or more and get the rest done later.

davo10

wandererz wrote: »

A few years ago my wife broke a stem on a crown while on holiday in Kusadasi, Turkey. We found a dentist just up the road from where we were and she was great. It turns out that she gets called into the local hospital for the difficult cases that they can't handle.

She's also worked or done some of her studies at the hospital in Birmingham.
I did my research on her before going in and there are lots of Irish & UK people who have had extensive work done and have nothing but complements.

She advised that the stems used by the dentist here were the old style and shouldn't have been used. She had spent 12000 euro with that dentist here in Ireland!!!

Anyway, the dentist in Turkey charged 145 for the stem replacement and quoted 250 or so for a new crown.

The next day, after my wifes recommendation, i went in for a checkup and she looked at some work for me that another dentist here wasn't certain about and had to get the specialist partner to look at etc.
She said that the procedure wasn't a big deal and to just give her some notice to book me in the next time.

We are booked to go back this June so that my wife can get a root canal and possibly some of her crowns replaced.

Two weeks flight & accommodation worked out to 1000 euro for the two of us.

At that price you could go have as much work done as is comfortable, have a nice sunny holiday for two weeks or more and get the rest done later.

By "stems" I presume you mean "post & core", the platform used to retain a crown on a weakened tooth. By "broke" I assume you mean the crown came out or the abutment broke. The "old style" stem you refer to is probably cast in either gold or a semi precious metal and the new type is either a carbon fibre post or zirconia (white). Both types are case specific, a zirconia post may be newer and have better aesthetics but is also weaker and more prone to fracture than a cast post. I've used carbon fibre posts and I've noticed that after a couple of years they bend and the crown starts to displace. Your Turkish dentist may have removed a perfect, strong post and replaced it with a more technologically advanced, aesthetically better but weaker post. Time will tell whether the strength is an important factor. By the way, a cast post is often more expensive to have made and very rarely breaks except as a result of trauma, so the dentist took out an expensive one and put in a cheaper one, a carbon fibre post would have cost her a fraction of a cast one.

If a crown comes out is usually a failure at the crown-tooth interface, ie the cement gives way due to chewing on something sticky etc. In most cases it's just a matter to placing a new layer of cement and re-seating it (€50) you got a new post and new crown (€395).

laoismama

Thanks for all your feedback, in fact several people have now mentioned Turkey to me also, as being as good as, if not better than some Irish Dentists and prices seem alot more affordable, still not cheap may I add. I'll do some checking into turkey I think, and see what I can find.

davo10

laoismama wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback, in fact several people have now mentioned Turkey to me also, as being as good as, if not better than some Irish Dentists and prices seem alot more affordable, still not cheap may I add. I'll do some checking into turkey I think, and see what I can find.

Laoismama every country has good and bad everything, the trick is to make sure you get a good one, not necessarily a cheap one. Finding a cheaper dentist who does complicated treatments poorly is a recipe for disaster, find a good one and you are on a winner so do your research carefully and not just on a computer, testimonials on clinic websites are banned in Ireland for good reason, they tend to be written by the clinic themselves.

There are some really good Hungarian clinics but they are not the ones who offer free flights or 50% discounts on multiple implants who cater only for the bargain hunters looking only at price.

laoismama

of course you re right about good and bad but in all honesty all I can see in recent articles on the web is customer after customer complaining about poor work done in Hungary, so thats really putting me off going there, its so hard to know what to do, but the web is the only place I have to find out.
at the moment the best options I have is nrth ireland or turkey, but Im still a bit unsure as from what I understand you dont actually see anyone before you go to turkey, it all goes on your xray. i feel abit uneasy about that, I think I'll look into nrth ireland, much more expensive but sure I'll see what I can find

Skatedude

I've always wondered how you can get implants abroad. they need to be done in two stages with about 6 months between. Do you have to fly out twice?

davo10

laoismama wrote: »

of course you re right about good and bad but in all honesty all I can see in recent articles on the web is customer after customer complaining about poor work done in Hungary, so thats really putting me off going there, its so hard to know what to do, but the web is the only place I have to find out.
at the moment the best options I have is nrth ireland or turkey, but Im still a bit unsure as from what I understand you dont actually see anyone before you go to turkey, it all goes on your xray. i feel abit uneasy about that, I think I'll look into nrth ireland, much more expensive but sure I'll see what I can find

There are excellent clinics in the North doing implants, check for qualifications such as Oral Surgeon or Prosthodontist. Watch out for clinics placing implants where dentists have just done a few weekend courses, risks of problems are inversely proportion to qualifications and specialist training. If you go to the British Dental Council register of specialists, look in the oral surgeon and prosthodontist categories, you will be safe having implants with clinicians on these.

Laoismama, implants and bridgework are not run-of-the-mill treatments, check your rights in the country where you are having it done if things go wrong. In Ireland North & South you have a lot of rights.

davo10

Skatedude wrote: »

I've always wondered how you can get implants abroad. they need to be done in two stages with about 6 months between. Do you have to fly out twice?

At least twice, assuming there are no complications nor adjustments necessary. Lots advertise aftercare in Dublin but if probs occur, you have to go back.

kibbutz

Hi

I got six zirconium crowns, two fillings and teeth cleaning last year by a dentist in Kusadasi, I was very wary at first about going to a dentist abroad even though I've been to Turkey many times but needed to get the work done and could never afford here. Anyway my cousin told me about an agent he went through here in Ireland who organises everything for you to go over to a Dentist in Kusadasi and this Dentist comes over to Ireland a couple of times a year to do free consultations and follow up checks on people who go to him regularly. Got in touch with agent and she was fab, all I had to do was send photos of my teeth and she got back to me with what I possibly needed done and a price. Went to see the Dentist here and really felt comfortable with him and his english was great but best of all the price Went over and his dentist surgery was top of the range and could not have been happier with the results. So I certainly reccommend going to Turkey

laoismama

Hi Kibbutz, do you mean you dealt with an Irish person here? that sounds great and any idea when this dentist comes?
is he regularly here? can you tell me more details please so I can get in contact and find out for myself please cheers

kibbutz

laoismama wrote: »

Hi Kibbutz, do you mean you dealt with an Irish person here? that sounds great and any idea when this dentist comes?
is he regularly here? can you tell me more details please so I can get in contact and find out for myself please cheers

Yes they are totally irish but have lived in turkey for many years. They were so friendly n helpful. I think the dentist is over soon, it was around April I met him last year. They're called kombined medical so u can look into them yourself

laoismama

kibbutz wrote: »

Yes they are totally irish but have lived in turkey for many years. They were so friendly n helpful. I think the dentist is over soon, it was around April I met him last year. They're called kombined medical so u can look into them yourself

Thanks I found their website and got in contact, excited, he will be here in 2 weeks and their prices are crazy compared to here. Also he only uses Swiss/American made prostethics which is a relief because alot of the hungarians use cheaper chinease versions. I have been doing my research. Thks kibbutz I am so hopeful and happy after speaking with the irish lady from kombined medical.

bobo74

hi all

I have been researching implants in Ireland and have come across Inter Med Clinic on Dorset St in Dublin

http://sosmile.com/


They offer full implant and crown treatment over a phased 6/7 months with 4-5 visits including xrays for 1200 euro which seems extremely good.

The head person Dr Stenka also has a practice in Poland and qualified almost 20 years experience. Has anyone used them any feedback as want to ensure quality is of high standard.

thanks

Oral Surgeon

You guys remind me of this ad...!!

Oral Surgeon

You can do all the research you want but be aware that good quality dental treatment takes time and costs money. If someone was offering you half price heart surgery you would smell a rat but often people forget these things when it comes to their oral health...
Also be wary of very helpful Irish reps. Be under no illusion, their primary objective is to get you to have as much treatment as possible, necessary or not, they make a % commission for their troubles... Here is a rep posing as a patient on boards today. She was shilling for her own dental clinic...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056526627&page=7

Draw your own conclusions....

bobo74

@ OS - this service is not in some far off land but available in Dublin city centre directly. The dentist in question is a qualified Oral surgeon in mid 1990's and registered with the Irish Dental council so is not some fly by night operator. No intermediatary or commission just a straight forward service available directly.

What is the problem with that prey tell?? not liking some competition in the marketplace??

Oral Surgeon

bobo74 wrote: »

@ OS - this service is not in some far off land but available in Dublin city centre directly. The dentist in question is a qualified Oral surgeon in mid 1990's and registered with the Irish Dental council so is not some fly by night operator. No intermediatary or commission just a straight forward service available directly.

What is the problem with that prey tell?? not liking some competition in the marketplace??

Hi bobo, you seem to be defending your choice quite aggressively, I've seen this before, you are trying to convince yourself that cheaper treatment is the same as other specialist treatment that is more in line with the going rate. I have no problem with competition, I actually work in probably the cheapest specialist clinic offering specialist treatment in the country...
Many clinicians have been granted access to specialist registers as they have proven some form of equivalant training in the past. This is not necessarily proof of a good clinician. A "true" specialist will limit their practice to one specific area of dentistry and focus on that. I did 3 years of full time training in oral surgery, this unfortunately was to the detriment of my other skills in dentistry so I would not dream of doing a filling, root canal, crown or denture. I leave that to those who do that every day.
The clinic you refer to may have an oral surgeon in name but not in practice. Is this oral surgeon also a prosthodontist, if not you may have good surgery but bad prosthetics....

I know the economics of dentistry and if you have a premises in Dublin, pay bills, pay staff and use good quality implants and lab work then €1200 is less than the break even cost of the treatment.
So, knowing the difference between fixed and variable costs, the only way to make this treatment pay is to do it fast, ie lessen the time you spend in the chair using the clinics rent rates wages bills etc and then to order cheaper implants and cheaper lab work.
Then and only then, can this €1200 be profitable for a clinic to provide.
So yes you get a cheaper implant but get it done too quick and with cheaper materials.
If that's what you want then ok.
Os

laoismama

Oral Surgeon wrote: »

Hi bobo, you seem to be defending your choice quite aggressively, I've seen this before, you are trying to convince yourself that cheaper treatment is the same as other specialist treatment that is more in line with the going rate. I have no problem with competition, I actually work in probably the cheapest specialist clinic offering specialist treatment in the country...
Many clinicians have been granted access to specialist registers as they have proven some form of equivalant training in the past. This is not necessarily proof of a good clinician. A "true" specialist will limit their practice to one specific area of dentistry and focus on that. I did 3 years of full time training in oral surgery, this unfortunately was to the detriment of my other skills in dentistry so I would not dream of doing a filling, root canal, crown or denture. I leave that to those who do that every day.
The clinic you refer to may have an oral surgeon in name but not in practice. Is this oral surgeon also a prosthodontist, if not you may have good surgery but bad prosthetics....

I know the economics of dentistry and if you have a premises in Dublin, pay bills, pay staff and use good quality implants and lab work then €1200 is less than the break even cost of the treatment.
So, knowing the difference between fixed and variable costs, the only way to make this treatment pay is to do it fast, ie lessen the time you spend in the chair using the clinics rent rates wages bills etc and then to order cheaper implants and cheaper lab work.
Then and only then, can this €1200 be profitable for a clinic to provide.
So yes you get a cheaper implant but get it done too quick and with cheaper materials.
If that's what you want then ok.
Os

@Oral Surgeon and Bobo

Thanks for your remarks and recommendations,
Everyone I guess has their own opinion.
But I have in last while been looking up prices v service/product quality, both here in Ireland and abroad. Like any service, at the end of the day dentists are in business to make money, and that said for many years here people paid over the odds for dentistry, until more and more started to look abroad for cheaper alternatives and by the way cheaper doesnt necessarily mean poorer quality. Dont forget most doctors surgeons operating in Irish hospitals are foreign, but for some reason you seem to think if these professionals were operating in their native countries their expertise would be considered lesser quality. I think for long enough people here have been robbed for private medical care and now with competition in the marketplace from countries where, overheads/staff costs are less, we start to see the Irish medical profession starting to drop their prices.
To be honest I have not decided what I will do yet, there is no doubting in my mind from what Ive read on the internet there are a huge amount of complaints about eastern europeon dentists, setting up a 'clinic' in ireland where in fact all work is carried out abroad save an xray or oral exam in their Irish clinic. The eastern europeon market seems to be awash with poor quality products that are made mostly in china.
I have not on the otherhand read any negitive articles about Turkish Dentistry except that it is much cheaper. I emailed the Irish representitive for kombined medical, I put your remarks to her, she said of course she earned something, who works for nothing? but she has dual nationality and is employed by the turkish dentist to liase with interested clients. Her job was not to tell me what work I needed but to organise and facilitate my travel arrangements and answer any worries queries I had. She sent me before and after photos of work that has been done, something I might add my Irish Dentist does not have or offer, is she lying fabricating I dont know but given the turkish dentist will be here in a few weeks doing free consultations I think I'll go and check him out myself.
Can I also add when I asked my Irish dentist for a copy of my Opg xray to send to Turkey he tried to tell me it was for his file, hang on but I paid for it? so eventually I got it.
C'mon medical services in this country are a laugh unless you pay privately.
And of course my dentist said 'oh wouldnt go abroad to have work done' why is it only in Ireland we train medical professionals properly? How pompus of us the lies we've been fed for years. Dentistry is a business end of story, making money for quality work to get more customers is the ethos of most small businesses. If I can pay half the price to go abroad, have a little holiday too, get my teeth done, then that is what I think I will do.
By the way the dentist for kombined medical uses Swiss/American products, she gave me the company names and I checked their websites, I emailed them and they confirmed they supply to this dentist. I feel on dental overload since this all began and Ive learned so much I'll keep ye all posted about how I get on.
Thanks again for all your help, you've made me investigate this more than I normally would have.

keithclancy

laoismama wrote: »

C'mon medical services in this country are a laugh unless you pay privately.
And of course my dentist said 'oh wouldnt go abroad to have work done' why is it only in Ireland we train medical professionals properly? How pompus of us the lies we've been fed for years. Dentistry is a business end of story, making money for quality work to get more customers is the ethos of most small businesses. If I can pay half the price to go abroad, have a little holiday too, get my teeth done, then that is what I think I will do.
By the way the dentist for kombined medical uses Swiss/American products, she gave me the company names and I checked their websites, I emailed them and they confirmed they supply to this dentist. I feel on dental overload since this all began and Ive learned so much I'll keep ye all posted about how I get on.
Thanks again for all your help, you've made me investigate this more than I normally would have.

In fairness, I have always found Dental work in Ireland to be of a good standard, although expensive this is due to the cost of running a business in Ireland.

Saying that, I would point out that there is a risk going to a dentist you know nothing about in a foreign country, I usually will only go to a dentist based on word of mouth, the first time you go to any dentist you are not familiar with there is a risk.

Also, if you have an issue with the work then your consumer protection is severely degraded since it is difficult to access systems of redress in the country it occurred in.

Not saying its a bad idea to go abroad, but its a bit of a gamble.

E.G. Like this guy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2584510/Eating-Mars-bar-pulled-teeth-Firefighter-pays-price-opting-budget-dental-surgery-aboard.html

Also not saying that they don't make mistakes in Ireland, but at least you would be able to pursue the problem in Ireland were as doing it in Hungary (or wherever) you are just left out of pocket, not even taking into account the extra time you would have to spend sorting the problem out.

If cost is an issue for you then there are other cheaper options like the Dental Hospital:

http://www.ucc.ie/en/media/academic/dentalschool/Pricelistupdated5Nov13excladmincodes.pdf

Healthcare tourism is something to think seriously about before opting for it! I live in the Netherlands and work in Germany and my experience is that the EU is not the homogeneous entity you think it is when it comes to Healthcare

davo10

laoismama wrote: »

@Oral Surgeon and Bobo

Like any service, at the end of the day dentists are in business to make money, and that said for many years here people paid over the odds for dentistry, until more and more started to look abroad for cheaper alternatives and by the way cheaper doesnt necessarily mean poorer quality. Dont forget most doctors surgeons operating in Irish hospitals are foreign, but for some reason you seem to think if these professionals were operating in their native countries their expertise would be considered lesser quality.

Can I also add when I asked my Irish dentist for a copy of my Opg xray to send to Turkey he tried to tell me it was for his file, hang on but I paid for it? so eventually I got it.
.

Laoismama, I like to dispel a few myths which you refer to here:

A small percentage of dentists here offer dental implants and advanced cosmetic treatments, a tiny percentage of the population want dental implants and of those who do, a tiny percentage travel abroad. Falling dental prices has absolutely nothing to do with people travelling abroad. What it does have to do with is increased domestic competition, greater transparency and the recession. People are mistaken if they think clinicians worry about people travelling abroad.

Secondly, medical staff from foreign countries working here have often trained here or elsewhere with recognised/equivalent qualifications. When the HSE have become less selective, there have been many high profile cases of foreign Doctors not having the required knowledge and skills.

The OPG does belong to the practice, you are entitled to a copy only and if it is a film x-ray, they are difficult and expensive to duplicate. If it's digital, it's easy to burn to a disc.

Turkey is not part of the EU, you will not be covered by EU consumer legislation.

As for whether the agent was lying, take a trip over to the dental forum and read the last couple of pages on the recent treatment abroad thread (Excellent experience......) An agent for a foreign clinic was just caught out pretending to be a patient, turns out she runs a Facebook page for the clinic and was stealing before and after photos from a well known irish clinic and pretending the treatment was done in Hungary. Deceitful, embarrassing for her and the clinic she works for, she gains financially by pretending to be Joe Bloggs and reeling people in for expensive treatments abroad.

laoismama

davo10 wrote: »

Laoismama, I like to dispel a few myths which you refer to here:

A small percentage of dentists here offer dental implants and advanced cosmetic treatments, a tiny percentage of the population want dental implants and of those who do, a tiny percentage travel abroad. Falling dental prices has absolutely nothing to do with people travelling abroad. What it does have to do with is increased domestic competition, greater transparency and the recession. People are mistaken if they think clinicians worry about people travelling abroad.

Secondly, medical staff from foreign countries working here have often trained here or elsewhere with recognised/equivalent qualifications. When the HSE have become less selective, there have been many high profile cases of foreign Doctors not having the required knowledge and skills.

The OPG does belong to the practice, you are entitled to a copy only and if it is a film x-ray, they are difficult and expensive to duplicate. If it's digital, it's easy to burn to a disc.

Turkey is not part of the EU, you will not be covered by EU consumer legislation.

As for whether the agent was lying, take a trip over to the dental forum and read the last couple of pages on the recent treatment abroad thread (Excellent experience......) An agent for a foreign clinic was just caught out pretending to be a patient, turns out she runs a Facebook page for the clinic and was stealing before and after photos from a well known irish clinic and pretending the treatment was done in Hungary. Deceitful.

I take on board everything you are saying of course but to dispel a few of your own points,
There have also been plenty of high profile cases against Irish Medical Professionals, I only asked for a copy on disc of opg xray, of course Irish dentists are fearful if they are losing business to other countries, they have to maintain their practises at the end of the day, Just checked, turkish dentists have the same equivalent qualifications as our europeon dentists.
To be honest the agent issue dosent bother me, Im getting the chance to meet the dentist and get a full evaluation from him. I will make a decision after that, Jesus I know enough now
Look I'm thankful to everyone who has had an input on this whether I agree or not most points are very valid and certainly give food for thought, for everyone.
The issue here shouldnt be clouded by agents deceitfulness they arent the dentist.
The main issue is should Irish people travel abroad to avail of cheaper but it seems equally as good medical services.
And what Ive seen so far, they should certainly consider it.
Thks again

davo10

laoismama wrote: »

There have also been plenty of high profile cases against Irish Medical Professionals, I only asked for a copy on disc of opg xray,

of course Irish dentists are fearful if they are losing business to other countries, they have to maintain their practises at the end of the day,

Yes there have been many high profile cases because clinicians know that if they fall short of required standards, it is easy for patients to make a complaint to the medical/dental council and bring them to court. That is a mighty incentive to make sure patients are treated to the highest standards. How easy of you think it would be for you to make the same complaints abroad?

Nope on the "fearful" each is much more concerned about the guy down the street than some guy a thousand miles away. I know people who are considering travelling think they are giving their local GDP one in the eye, honestly it won't make a difference to their practice where you go.

keithclancy

laoismama wrote: »

The main issue is should Irish people travel abroad to avail of cheaper but it seems equally as good medical services.

My opinion of this is that the Language factor is a big part of it for me.

You might think that their English is perfect but there can be misunderstandings when there are problems.

Even in the Netherlands where there is excellent healthcare they'll just give you a booklet explaining something in Dutch and tell you to get a friend to translate it for you (Although now I understand Dutch)