***Important*** Feedback Required

Myrddin

Howdy all

So, we've decided to seek your sage wisdom & advice with regards to a forum we have that's not doing very well. That forum, is the Steam & Valve forum, & we started a discussion after seeing this thread...in which it's pretty clear, that there's some issues we need to address.

Initially, the Steam & Valve forum was proposed as a way of segregating Steam, as a subject, away from the Games forum. The Games forum is here to discuss just that...games. With the imminent arrival of Steam Box hardware, & the likes of Steam OS...we figured it'd be nice to have a place to discuss basically everything Steam, & not clutter up the Games forum with such talk. The 'Valve' element of the Steam & Valve forum, came about as we essentially closed the doors of the dead/flailing Half Life & Counter Strike forums...in order to make way for Steam & valve. So rather than losing any existing community (however small), we thought allowing Valve chat in Steam & Valve would work in keeping the door open for such discussion.

There was to be (other than older Valve titles), no games chat in Steam & Valve...because we didn't want to in any way affect this forum, so Steam & Valve was left with Steam (accounts/issues etc), Steam Box (hardware config & setup), Steam OS (config & setup), Steam Sales (not strictly about a game(s) so Steam seemed a good place), Steam Trades (to discuss the trading of games & items), Valve (older Valve titles) & basically anything related to Steam but not specifically a game(s).

So, fast forward to today, it's six months or so on...& it hasn't exactly worked to plan. We have a forum with no established identity, sparse posting, & users publicly making those same observations. So, what's wrong with the forum, & why aren't people using it? There's possibly quite a few explanations to these questions...maybe those subjects just don't generate the volume of chat we expected? Maybe people are confused about what the forum is there for? Maybe people view it as a ghost town now & are less inclined to post in it? All we know is, something needs to be done about it, & after our own private chat, it's time we sought the advise of your good selves.

Ok, to bring you up to speed...our own private chat has yielded some good suggestions, so we'd like to run them by you & get your thoughts if possible. Perhaps you'll agree with what we have is a good starting point, or perhaps you'll have some entirely different ideas about what to do....the point is, anything you can say is helpful...provided it's constructive feedback

1) Ok, firstly...rather than just limiting pc gaming chat in Steam & Valve to just old Valve games...we'd like to throw the doors open & allow a wider scope of gaming chat. This forum covers the cutting edge of games discussion, the vast majority of threads are about brand new or even upcoming releases. Would it harm this forum if we allowed Steam & Valve to cater to pc games that are out of the limelight? We don't think so....so we propose to allow Steam & Valve to cover not just valve games, but all pc games (provided they are older than's normally talked about in this forum).

If a thread about a two year old game popped up in this forum, it'd be swalled up very quickly with all the more current threads, & end up on page two very fast. Therefore, kicking a thread like that over to Steam & valve, will give that thread a better chance to generate some decent chat, & stay current for longer there (as the thread turnover will likely be slower). If a thread about a brand new game pops up in Steam & Valve, the mods will move it to this forum...& similarly, if a thread about an older game pops up in this forum, then the mods here might kick it over to Steam & Valve. There would be a healthy amount of discretion applied by the relevant mods, but it would be hoped that both forums would compliment each other...rather than conflict with each other.

Also, the Steam & Valve forum would continue covering its existing subjects, so all of the above would remain in that forum too...but with more game chat this time.

2) Given the above changes, the name Steam & Valve wouldn't really fit any longer. We propose to rename the forum, as the 'PC Gaming' forum.

3) As the PC is a gaming platform, it'd be best if the PC Gaming forum was located alongside the other hardware platform forums, like Nintendo, Sony & Xbox. So we propose to move the PC Gaming forum, to live alongside the existing hardware platform forums. So we'd have PC Gaming, Nintendo, Sony & Xbox all living in the same sub-category, which is nice & intuitive, as opposed ot having the console platforms where they are, & the PC Gaming forum up away from them.

4) Finally, the 'Consoles' sub-category, which currently houses Nintendo, Playstation & Xbox...wouldn't be a great name if we were to have PC Gaming living there. So we propose to rename the 'Consoles' sub-category, to 'Gaming Platforms' which is more diverse, & not limited to just consoles.

So, that's where we are at the moment. We'd really appreciate any thoughts & feedback on it, again, just keep it constructive

Cheers folks
Myrddin

K.O.Kiki

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Magill

Yeah, sounds like a good idea to me.

degrassinoel

I think there are too many subforums in the games category anyway.

Condensing them into a more active shorter list of fora would be good idea.

What happens when there's a multiplatform game that everyone wants to talk about? let's face it, that happens with every second release. Look at XCOM and Diablo. Those two topics alone are cross platform and have had a great discussion going for over two years with players of all calibre, pc and consoles alike.

If all the subsections of games were condensed into three or four subforums of Games you would have a lot more activity on those four than what you have on thirty or so subforums atm.

just my 2 cents

MadYaker

I don't think that forum is necessary at the moment. Maybe when the steam box is released and has established itself as another major platform like xbox and PS then the forum would thrive. We don't have an EA/Origin forum, so why do we need one for Steam and Valve.

Myrddin

degrassinoel wrote: »

What happens when there's a multiplatform game that everyone wants to talk about? let's face it, that happens with every second release. Look at XCOM and Diablo. Those two topics alone are cross platform and have had a great discussion going for over two years with players of all calibre, pc and consoles alike.

I think each thread will would have to be judged on its own merits, & that healthy dose of discretion I mentioned will definitely apply. If the thread is very active & is multi-platform, I don't see any reason why it would have to move to another forum

If all the subsections of games were condensed into three or four subforums of Games you would have a lot more activity on those four than what you have on thirty or so subforums atm.

just my 2 cents

Do you mean forums like RPG's, Fighting Games, Massively Multiplayer, MOBA etc etc all as subforums of this main Games forum? To do that there'd be a ton of listed subforums showing at the top of the screen, thus reducing what exists on page 1 greatly...

Cheers for the feedback

Myrddin

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't think that forum is necessary at the moment. Maybe when the steam box is released and has established itself as another major platform like xbox and PS then the forum would thrive. We don't have an EA/Origin forum, so why do we need one for Steam and Valve.

The problem is, Steam Box is never going to establish itself as a 'platform'...it's a pc after all, nothing different from what's already out there. What we're proposing is to rename the forum, open it up to games chat that would disappear quickly from this forum, & as you mention, even include the likes of Origin stuff in there too. It would be PC Gaming, so anything & everything related to gaming on a pc, including the games themselves that are out of the limelight.

johnny_ultimate

If you have any comments about how the games forum is / isn't working in relation to the category at large, feel free to chime in. The last thing we want to do is break what isn't broken, so your honest feedback is really appreciated on this one There is always merit in having some division - the console forums have worked really well since they were revamped a few years ago, and helped keep other forums on track - but it's up to you folks as much as us to figure out the balance! There's a big and knowledgable PC userbase here, and if you feel there's any topics being drowned out in the current structure that's what this theoretical revamp would try and address.

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Seriously considering adding a 'no master race memes or derivatives' rule to the games charter

(Also banning the word fanboy )

Kiith

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Seriously considering adding a 'no master race memes or derivatives' rule to the games charter :pac:

But everyone in the forum will belong to the same race, so we can all raise our glasses of cognac, tip out top hats, and laugh at the filthy console peasants :P

Seriously though, i think it's a good idea. Pc Gaming is as big a topic as any of the other platforms, and it won't do any damage to the Games forum itself. I personally look forward to somewhere i can constantly rant about how brilliant Homeworld, Freespace 2 and System Shock are...to anyone who listens

sweetie

sounds sensible to me

super_furry

Honestly I don't see the point. If it succeeds then it will do so at the cost of the Games forum with PC gaming discussion and much of the multi-platform discussion both being shifted off there. All you have to do is look at the front page to see that multi-platform discussion on games like Diablo, Titanfall, X-Com and Hearthstone (soon to be iPad and Android) are all thriving here, due in no small part to the discussions on the PC version. You move those discussion away to a separate forum and they'll die quickly here. I think the gaming forums are already too diversified, having been pulled back together after a similar move was attempted some years ago.

Part of the reason that the console forums are doing well is because they don't just cover one system, they cover multiple systems over several generations - the proposed PC Gaming forum won't. The older PC games are the province of Arcade and Retro. There's also the fact those forums play host to technical, set-up and hardware discussion and again you're not going to get those kind of discussion in a PC Gaming forum because they're already more that well covered in the Computers and Technology section of the Tech forums.

The way I see it, if the Valve and Steam forum is dying then let it die. Trying to save it in this manner with just hurt the Games forum.

Myrddin

super_furry wrote: »

Honestly I don't see the point. If it succeeds then it will do so at the cost of the Games forum with PC gaming discussion and much of the multi-platform discussion both being shifted off there. All you have to do is look at the front page to see that multi-platform discussion on games like Diablo, Titanfall, X-Com and Hearthstone (soon to be iPad and Android) are all thriving here, due in no small part to the discussions on the PC version. You move those discussion away to a separate forum and they'll die quickly here. I think the gaming forums are already too diversified, having been pulled back together after a similar move was attempted some years ago.

But such threads wouldn't be being moved, if they're thriving here in this forum then that's where they would stay. But for how long will they thrive, will they still be thriving in a year, or two, or three? Probably not, in which case...they become more niche topics of discussion which could potentially live on in the PC Gaming forum...rather than remain in this forum on page 12, swallowed up by far more recent games.

Part of the reason that the console forums are doing well is because they don't just cover one system, they cover multiple systems over several generations - the proposed PC Gaming forum won't. The older PC games are the province of Arcade and Retro. There's also the fact those forums play host to technical, set-up and hardware discussion and again you're not going to get those kind of discussion in a PC Gaming forum because they're already more that well covered in the Computers and Technology section of the Tech forums.

The console forums don't really cater to retro games though, Arcade & Retro does...& it does it well at that. The console forums tick along with mostly current/recent topics. Regards the tech side, I agree that any & all tech discussion (on an in depth level) is really the domain of the Tech forums...this is Games after all

The way I see it, if the Valve and Steam forum is dying then let it die. Trying to save it in this manner with just hurt the Games forum.

I'm not sure I'd agree that what we're proposing will affect the Games forum in any way...it certainly isn't the intent. Would anyone who is a regular on the Games forum notice if there was a discussion about a two or three year old game happening in PC Gaming? You might be entirely right...we'll only know if we try though

degrassinoel

Myrddin wrote: »

I think each thread will would have to be judged on its own merits, & that healthy dose of discretion I mentioned will definitely apply. If the thread is very active & is multi-platform, I don't see any reason why it would have to move to another forum



Do you mean forums like RPG's, Fighting Games, Massively Multiplayer, MOBA etc etc all as subforums of this main Games forum? To do that there'd be a ton of listed subforums showing at the top of the screen, thus reducing what exists on page 1 greatly...

Cheers for the feedback

yes exactly those forums
Fewer forums, more activity is the point i was aiming at.

there are quite a few inactive/slow/dead forums in the games category atm which could probably be closed without anyone but a moderator even noticing.

I think segregating the pc and console is just gonna be a flop. Games(this forum) is active and if anything the inactives ones should go the way of the dodo, and if you're overburdened with mod stuff, you'll have plenty of unemployed forumless mods to pick and choose from too :P

Magill

Nah, most of those forums are relatively active compared to a lot of the sub forums of other topics on boards. Merging them would likely kill off any sort of future discussions on those games. It would also turn the sub forum into a mess of "Superthreads" imo.

The PC Gaming forum would suit as it should leave the games forum intact... but also open the door for more PC specific discussions.

marco_polo

Definately keep all the main game threads here, but I do think a PC Gaming forum would be a better fit than the Steam one and would probably sustain just about enough traffic to become a sustainable forum much like the xbox and ps ones.

Kiith

It would also be handy for finding pc players for recent games, just like in the console forums. A list of pc Titanfall players would be great.

CastorTroy

I think one method of getting traffic to a PC forum would be with the bargains thread. As has been mentioned previously, the Bargains thread on the Games forum is mostly PC games anyway. The Nintendo subforum has its own bargains thread which works really well there, in my opinion. So if each platform's subforum had its own bargains thread away from the main forum instead of the one thread in the main forum it would help those subforums. (Please put away the torches and pitchforks)

But also maybe use the PC forum to create a thread for cd key sites, including experiences with them, reviews and which ones are safe to use.

And a thread where people who are relatively new to PC gaming can ask questions about setup for playing games or ask about their specs for games. I don't mean how to go about building as there is the separate forum for that, but maybe a guide as to what options someone could turn down or off if the game was running slow.

Of course we have the busy threads then around sale time. But again, that thread was pretty Steam specific even though all the other sites had their sales at the same time.

mewso

As someone who is jaded by AAA games these days I see the real distinction being in game types. The main forum should be for cross platform AAA games (as it generally is anyway) and sub forums of genres - RPG, Action, Adventure etc. I know there can be confusion over game types and blurred lines but in most cases it is relatively clear. It's a bit of a mess really and a difficult one to fix but when you have a more or less dead RPG forum, an Elder Scrolls sub-forum below that and a Skyrim thread in the main games forum you have to wonder. Things like discussion on the new Thief game being good can stay here in Games and people can discuss the proper Thief games in an Action/Stealth forum for example

Robert ninja

The whole "Games" master category on boards.ie has been convoluted for as long as I can remember. The minute I saw the Steam forum pop up in it I knew it was weird that it wasn't just a PC forum. Anyway, I think the proposed changes are obviously the better way to go.

Mr Bloat

I think with the Steam and Valve forum, the modes tried to create a solution for which there is no problem. To take each item listed in the OP in turn:

1) I think that the attraction of the Steam box has been vastly overestimated (at least for the foreseeable future). What discussion there is on it (and most other Steam/Valve topics) could easily be covered in a megathread within the Games forum. Other topics like Steam Account issues could also be covered in a single thread, it's not as if they pop up regularly. How many times does a thread about an old game pop up? Surely not often enough to warrant a forum dedicated to it, especially when there is a forum dedicated to retro gaming already.

2) If the S&V forum is renamed to PC Gaming, it's going to create confusion. People won't know that it is primarily there to discuss older PC games and the like. If it is PC Hardware people want to discuss, the PC Building and Upgrading forum already caters for that.

3) If the forum change is going to go ahead I suppose this would be the logical way to apply it.

4) See 3.

All in all, I think splitting anything away from the main Gaming forum is a bad idea. As others have already said, there are too many sub-forums within Games already. Creating a PC Gaming forum will do nothing but take traffic away from forums already dedicated to discussing hardware and older games.

Ape Lincoln

There's a gaming bargains thread in the games forum and most of the posts are about Steam

I've nowt against Steam mind.

Myrddin

Thanks for all the feedback so far folks, it makes interesting reading & it's all helpful.

mewso wrote: »

It's a bit of a mess really and a difficult one to fix but when you have a more or less dead RPG forum, an Elder Scrolls sub-forum below that and a Skyrim thread in the main games forum you have to wonder.

That's a fair point, & when spelled out like that, you do indeed have to wonder. Over the last while we've gotten rid of several forums that were dead, Resident Evil, Command & Conquer, Game Reviews, Counter Strike, Half Life, Sega, Metal Gear Solid, etc....all more or less dead. It is an ongoing kind of thing though, & before retiring a forum, we like to be sure that it's definitely beyond saving, & that all avenues have been explored in attempting to save it.

We will, in time, get around to the RPG's forum & evaluate it

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I think with the Steam and Valve forum, the modes tried to create a solution for which there is no problem. To take each item listed in the OP in turn:

1) I think that the attraction of the Steam box has been vastly overestimated (at least for the foreseeable future). What discussion there is on it (and most other Steam/Valve topics) could easily be covered in a megathread within the Games forum. Other topics like Steam Account issues could also be covered in a single thread, it's not as if they pop up regularly. How many times does a thread about an old game pop up? Surely not often enough to warrant a forum dedicated to it, especially when there is a forum dedicated to retro gaming already.

You're quite correct in that at the time of the Steam & Valve forums inception, there was no real demand for it (Steam Box wasn't out yet, Steam OS wasn't out yet etc)...but the idea was that we got the forum up & running, & make people aware of its existence, so that when these products came to light...they instantly had somewhere to live & an existing userbase ready to chat about them.

Regards the frequency of threads about old games, I think you'd be surprised about how well such threads could potentially thrive in an environment different to one this forum provides. People are far less likely to bother starting a thread about an older game here in Games, as they know it'll be swallowed up within a few hours/a day & be on page 2 before it ever got going. But give people an environment where they know they can comfortably talk about older games (and by older we mean just out of the limelight, it doesn't have to be a text based adventure ) & they just might, be more inclined to do so.

Nothing is certain, & you could end up being completely right...but at least if we try something, we can say we tried & failed...rather than not bothering at all.

2) If the S&V forum is renamed to PC Gaming, it's going to create confusion. People won't know that it is primarily there to discuss older PC games and the like. If it is PC Hardware people want to discuss, the PC Building and Upgrading forum already caters for that.

Well the mods there will have a charter in place that defines the nature of the forum, & for newer users who wouldn't be familiar with how it works, threads can be moved & the user advised. Tis all a learning process Regards discussing hardware, no, that's not what the forum would be for...as you said it's already catered to in Tech so we're mindful of creating any conflict there.

There might be threads about having problems runnign certain games or whatever, & naturally there would be an element of hardware chat that'd creep in there, like "What os/gfx card are you using", "try updating your drivers" & all that kind of thing, which I think should be perfectly fine. Anything further than that though, & it should be sent over to Tech.

All in all, I think splitting anything away from the main Gaming forum is a bad idea. As others have already said, there are too many sub-forums within Games already. Creating a PC Gaming forum will do nothing but take traffic away from forums already dedicated to discussing hardware and older games.

You say its a bad idea to split anything away from the main Games forum, but we're not splitting anything away We're proposing to allow the kinds of discussion to happen in PC Gaming that aren't happening here (somewhat older games, & everything related to pc gaming that isn't about new/current games etc). Also, there are examples of forums that have split content away from Games that are thriving, & in no way affecting this forum - Fighting Games, MOBA, Arcade & Retro, Massively Multiplayer, etc....so it can work, given the right set of circumstances.

It's been mentioned a few times already that there are too many forums within the Games category, & as I mentioned above, we will look at that on an ongoing basis...if it's possible to simplify it down without losing any scope, that's generally the approach we take...but it's a process that has to be done right, so it takes time

Kur4mA

Simples.

Create a poll asking if people are going to bother their arse getting a Steam Box and/or installing Steam OS. I think you'll mostly find the majority of people are not going to bother for the foreseeable future. In other words, a dedicated Steam & Valve forum isn't actually needed and you guys are over-thinking this far too much.

Myrddin

kyub wrote: »

Simples.

Create a poll asking if people are going to bother their arse getting a Steam Box and/or installing Steam OS. I think you'll mostly find the majority of people are not going to bother for the foreseeable future.

Bit late for that, considering the forum already exists

In other words, a dedicated Steam & Valve forum isn't actually needed

Kind of already established that

and you guys are over-thinking this far too much.

Perhaps, not the worst crime in the world to be accused of though Given the Steam forum now exists, I take it by that post you'd just wrap the forum up & take no further action? While that's certainly one option, I think without at least having this discussion, it'd be a shame incase there were any missed opportunities for creating chat that might splinter off from what's already happening in this forum...we are appreciative of the feedback though, & will happily listen to any ideas anyone might have

Lone Stone

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

Myrddin

Lone Stone wrote: »

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

Merge what exactly into one forum? Surely the category as a whole can't be realistically condensed into one forum... I'm all for paring back the list of forums, & making the category more intuitive to navigate...but I'd need specifics

Kiith

Lone Stone wrote: »

Bleh its all about game's merge them into one forum. Im a primarily pc gamer, and i only ever come to this games forum & the mmo one, no need for all the categories.

That doesn't work imo though. I've used other forums in the past, where games have a single thread, and everything is in one forum. It's a nightmare to find view it, and talk of anything bar the newest releases disappears in minutes.

Cuddlesworth

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

Shiminay

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

I say this with the greatest of respect and I am genuinely not trying to troll, but it's not like the site hasn't spent the last 4 years saying "old menus will be going away and won't be getting updated and will stop working"

But that's besides the point.

I'm in two minds about this. There's a lot of sense in renaming the Steam forum to PC Gaming and moving it to the "Platforms" sub-cat (rename Consoles to Platforms and move the "mobile" forum into this area too).

We also need to remember that the Games category doesn't just cater to computer games.

I may put my work hat on and take a look at a re-organisation with the CMods - I've mostly left it in your hands because you've been really pro-active with it these last couple of years

Myrddin

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

And this is when I find out that the forum layout I've been using hasn't had a menu update in well over a year. And I don't like the new one.

Is that the skin you're using you mean? If so, yep, all the older skins are nowno longer supported.

We're perfectly happy to discuss the category as a whole & gain insight into how it can be improved, but right now, today, if we can stick to the PC Gaming forum proposal as laid out in the op...it'd be appreciated

Myrddin

Shiminay wrote: »

I may put my work hat on and take a look at a re-organisation with the CMods - I've mostly left it in your hands because you've been really pro-active with it these last couple of years

That too would be wholly welcome It's clear from users comments, there's definite scope for discussion on improving it anyway