***Important*** Feedback Required

ShadowHearth

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Can we ban anyone who makes a "PC gaming master race" comment from Games and direct them to PC Gaming? :pac:

Can we just Lock away anyone who says that PC gaming overpriced and too complicated. :pac:


On topic: I sort of liked idea of Pc gaming forum before, but now I dont really want it.
From my own experience I noticed that subforums are pretty much a death sentence to most game threads. I rarely go to other subforums at all, unless I am really bored or there is zero activity in main games forum.

We could have a Gabe Newell appreciationt thread!

Retr0gamer

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Regards the frequency of threads about old games, I think you'd be surprised about how well such threads could potentially thrive in an environment different to one this forum provides. People are far less likely to bother starting a thread about an older game here in Games, as they know it'll be swallowed up within a few hours/a day & be on page 2 before it ever got going. But give people an environment where they know they can comfortably talk about older games (and by older we mean just out of the limelight, it doesn't have to be a text based adventure ) & they just might, be more inclined to do so.

What about discussion about older games which aren't on the PC and are console-only?

Essentially, I don't really see how it's a valid reason to have a PC Gaming forum.

Not that I think we should have one anyway as, ultimately, I think it will do little else other than perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality which rears its ugly head around here with annoying regularity.

Vikings

I'm more of a lurker around here venturing in from time to time to see what games are popular at the time when I want to try something new, with that background here is my thoughts on this:

Each console already has its own subforum, so that is taken care of.

There is a PC Building & Upgrading and Overclocking & Modding forum, so that is taken care of.

A lot of the big games like COD, Battlefield & GTA have their own forums and on top of that there is forums specifically for RPG's, Fighting Games, Strategy games etc.

So what is left to discuss? The odd cross platform game that might not fit into any of the above categories like Batman or Assassins Creed maybe.

And then the range of PC games that are out there.

I don't think there needs to be a dedicated PC gaming forum, the other forum options out there already provide enough diversity. I come here for my PC gaming needs already, why change that?

Myrddin

gizmo wrote: »

What about discussion about older games which aren't on the PC and are console-only?

Without coming across as sarcastic, I would have thought that would be obvious? It wouldn't be called the PC Gaming forum to discuss console-only games in

Essentially, I don't really see how it's a valid reason to have a PC Gaming forum.

Not that I think we should have one anyway as, ultimately, I think it will do little else other than perpetuate the "us versus them" mentality which rears its ugly head around here with annoying regularity.

It would be a concern, but more so one for the mods...

Vikings wrote: »

I come here for my PC gaming needs already, why change that?

We're not looking to change it though

I'm not posting to convince anyone one way or the other, more so that everyone properly understands the proposal & on that basis, gives it fair consideration. I will re-emphasise, we're not looking to change or remove anything from this forum...we're looking to cater to what doesn't get talked about in this forum

Grumpypants

I think there is scope to have a PC gaming sub category if it was open to all aspects of PC gaming not just either the games or the components. I know there is a PC building forum but it is not really aimed at the gaming side of things. A PC category where we can talk about older PC games, Steam/Origin/key site sales, kickstarter, PC components like graphics cards, monitors, keyboards that suit new games etc would be fairly useful.

The PlayStation and Xbox forums used to be very active, i used to post there as you could freely talk about console games without having to put up with every thread getting derailed by someone saying you could built a PC for $300. I would like to see a return to that or at least a relaxing of the rules.

When those categories were changed they really died off as there isn't enough to talk about in relation to consoles without the games.

The games forum then became too busy and a thread would drop to page 2 or 3 very quickly if it was n't flame bait.

Another issue with the forums is that it is not clear what the rules are.

As long as the rules are simple and similar across all the sub categories then it should balance out.

I think Games forum for all new games and new gaming news regardless of the platform would be busy.

PlayStation/Xbox/PC forums for all peripherals and smaller games or games older than 1 year that wouldn't get a fair shot on the games forum would offer a place to discuss other items bar the main stream titles.

jumbobreakfast

If you do create a PC gaming section then consider merging survival sandbox and older gaming subforums into it

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Without coming across as sarcastic, I would have thought that would be obvious? It wouldn't be called the PC Gaming forum to discuss console-only games in

That was my point though. If the lack of discussion about older games in general is a concern then it should be addressed as a whole for all platforms. Using it as a reason to keep a PC Gaming orientated forum around therefore isn't valid.

If, on the other hand, the new forum was to focus more on the PC-orientated side of hardware and gaming services, then it could be quite useful. Basically, keep it a "Platform-only" forum, like the existing console ones and leave all of the games discussion in the general Games forum.

DarkJager

This would be a great idea. The PC Gaming hipsters would have their own place then to circle jerk about being the "master race", away from the rest of us who couldn't care less about it

Raphael

I think the big reason for using a platform based model over a genre based one is that it's a line along which communities align more easily.

People who play games on PC will probably have played a lot of the same games, and will be able to discuss them, likewise xbox or ps3. So having a platform to discuss smaller titles, or older ones that would be drowned out in this forum is a better option than trying to find a genre forum for it.

Some of the genre forums (MMOs for example) work because there is a community there. A group of like minded people who play that genre and try out new games in that genre. Some of the genre forums (RPGs for example) do not, because there is no community surrounding the genre.

I believe that if you dumped the entire games cat back into this forum, it's be ridiculous. If you agree with that, then why is their harm in talking about moving some of the hidden traffic out? No one's talking about kicking every PC gaming thread out of here. Hell, I don't even think threads will really be moved. What will be there is that if your thread gets buried here without anyone seeing it, you can have somewhere with a lower traffic to try posting it.

Myrddin

Grumpypants wrote: »

I think there is scope to have a PC gaming sub category if it was open to all aspects of PC gaming not just either the games or the components. I know there is a PC building forum but it is not really aimed at the gaming side of things. A PC category where we can talk about older PC games, Steam/Origin/key site sales, kickstarter, PC components like graphics cards, monitors, keyboards that suit new games etc would be fairly useful.

I think there might be a very slight tech element that could creep in, such things are inevitable with pc chat...but again we're trying to be absolutely fair to forums that already cater to this stuff outside of the category. If the tech talk would relate to the game in some way, as in what specs maybe you run it on (or can't run it on) then maybe that'd be ok...but when it comes to hardware advice & how-to-upgrade type talk etc...that's really leaving the realms of the Games cat.

The PlayStation and Xbox forums used to be very active, i used to post there as you could freely talk about console games without having to put up with every thread getting derailed by someone saying you could built a PC for $300. I would like to see a return to that or at least a relaxing of the rules.

When those categories were changed they really died off as there isn't enough to talk about in relation to consoles without the games.

I think that change has been by far more successful than not. There's now a centralized hub to discuss games, very little cross-posting (which was an issue when browsing three or four different forums about games), & the console forums took away all the now gaming chat that was still relevant. Yes they lost some traffic, but in terms of usability, I things have very much improved.

Another issue with the forums is that it is not clear what the rules are.

As long as the rules are simple and similar across all the sub categories then it should balance out.

By rules you mean the subject matter of the forum I presume? Or individual forums charters etc? Have you any examples?

I think Games forum for all new games and new gaming news regardless of the platform would be busy.

That's pretty much how its working already though?

PlayStation/Xbox/PC forums for all peripherals and smaller games or games older than 1 year that wouldn't get a fair shot on the games forum would offer a place to discuss other items bar the main stream titles.

Well I won't speak for the other console forums in this regard, but yeah, that's the idea with PC Gaming more or less.

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

If you do create a PC gaming section then consider merging survival sandbox and older gaming subforums into it

Yeah it definitely would give us some scope to reduce the overall category footprint, & consolidate some related forums together.

gizmo wrote: »

That was my point though. If the lack of discussion about older games in general is a concern then it should be addressed as a whole for all platforms. Using it as a reason to keep a PC Gaming orientated forum around therefore isn't valid.

Maybe, if it is successful, we could look at that as an idea alright, but don't forget we have a very popular Arcade & Retro forum which already covers the vast majority of older console gaming discussion. For whatever reason, pc games never really feature all that much in A&R.

If, on the other hand, the new forum was to focus more on the PC-orientated side of hardware and gaming services, then it could be quite useful. Basically, keep it a "Platform-only" forum, like the existing console ones and leave all of the games discussion in the general Games forum.

The hardware thing prob won't be a runner, I'll say that off the bat. There are forums outside of the Games Category that cater to this, & again, I'm not about to cause them problems. I acknowledge some crossover is likely, but it'll be basic stuff. Gaming services, sales, etc etc are all a definite inclusion.

DarkJager wrote: »

This would be a great idea. The PC Gaming hipsters would have their own place then to circle jerk about being the "master race", away from the rest of us who couldn't care less about it

Great, thanks a mill for that...we'll be sure to take it on board :(

Again, thanks all...the different viewpoints really help.

Gbear

In terms of neatness it doesn't seem like all the gaming genres need a sub-forum off the main "Games" dropdown.

Maybe just have the Games/Games structure and have everything related to gaming in that - all genres, all platforms, all events, development, games journalism and media.

Have this forum for discussion of cross platform games and issues (like censorship, internet freedom, piracy, etc).
Have platform specific threads (hardware, software, exclusive games) in their respective platform subcategories.

So inside Games/Games you have threads like you see here now - Titanfall, Assassins Creed, etc.
You'd also have a bunch of subcategory headers - Platforms (which would contain each platform - as many as you like), Events, Journalism and Media, Development.

MMOs and Strategy tend to be PC only so they'd all go to the PC Gaming sub (Games/Games/Platforms/PC Gaming).
Fighting and Racing games would go to their respective platform if exclusive or Games/Games if they weren't.

Myrddin

Gbear wrote: »

Have this forum for discussion of cross platform games and issues (like censorship, internet freedom, piracy, etc).
Have platform specific threads (hardware, software, exclusive games) in their respective platform subcategories.

That sounds similar to how it used to be, where console games were discussed in the console forums...it created a lot of cross posting (as most games are cross-platform), & you'd run the risk of threads not living up to their potential as if they are an exclusive game, they'll be away from the main forum.

So inside Games/Games you have threads like you see here now - Titanfall, Assassins Creed, etc.
You'd also have a bunch of subcategory headers - Platforms (which would contain each platform - as many as you like), Events, Journalism and Media, Development.

It's a nice idea, but I think there might be too many subforums then in this forum...all the real estate they take up means less visible threads on the first page...which means you're potentially going to lose out on chat as page 2 might as well be page 20 for a lot of people. Also, you're burying a lot of forums behind lots of extra clicks, where at least in the drop down menu they're instantly visible & more likely to be visited...

MMOs and Strategy tend to be PC only so they'd all go to the PC Gaming sub (Games/Games/Platforms/PC Gaming).
Fighting and Racing games would go to their respective platform if exclusive or Games/Games if they weren't.

I'd be really, really reluctant to move any forum that's doing well. Fighting Games runs itself, Massively Multiplayer is working too. Strategy could potentially become a subforum of the theoretical PC Gaming forum alright, it would depend on several factors though.

gizmo

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe, if it is successful, we could look at that as an idea alright, but don't forget we have a very popular Arcade & Retro forum which already covers the vast majority of older console gaming discussion. For whatever reason, pc games never really feature all that much in A&R.

Arcade & Retro doesn't cover the types of games you've mentioned as being viable threads for discussion on this forum though, e.g. older in the sense that they're just out of the limelight. Anyway, it's more of a mod issue and is probably something that can be clarified in the Charter. My main concern is simply the risk of splitting potential games based discussion away from the Games forum.

Myrddin wrote: »

The hardware thing prob won't be a runner, I'll say that off the bat. There are forums outside of the Games Category that cater to this, & again, I'm not about to cause them problems. I acknowledge some crossover is likely, but it'll be basic stuff. Gaming services, sales, etc etc are all a definite inclusion.

I should have been more specific here, sorry. I didn't mean general "What graphics card should I get?" type things, moreso topics such as Oculus Rift and the influence VR will have on gaming in the future, in-home streaming tech via SteamOS or nVidia GameStream and smaller, more gaming-orientated peripherals like mechanical keyboards and the gaming specific advantages they offer over their membrane-based brethren.

titan18

Multiple issues really with it (and some of the ideas suggested).

Steam and Valve doesn't really need a sub-forum by itself. Probably one of the largest Steam related threads would be Summer and Christmas Sales. No reason why that can't be in the Games forum as a thread. It tends to be highly active so having it in Gaming Bargains is messy, but doesn't need a whole sub-forum. SteamOS and SteamBox aren't popular enough yet to justify one either, so really you're left with technical issues.

There was a comparison made to putting a new PC Gaming forum in with Nintendo,Xbox and Playstation, and older games would be discussed. For the most part, there's very little game discussion in the console forums. It's about the console itself and it's features, and game discussion tends to relate mostly to upcoming games you're looking forward too, games you should buy etc, rather than individual discussions on something like The Last of Us, or an Xbox only discussion on Titanfall or something. Game discussion is generally contained within the Games forum, barring stuff like MMOs,MOBAs, COD,FIFA, GTA etc. Those sub-forums also help for technical issue discussion, but for PC Gaming, there's too much of an overlap with the Tech forum or PC Building and Upgrading for it to need a separate forum here.


Whilst you could create a PC Gaming forum, I'm not sure how you can split the discussion. MOBAs, MMOs, Football Manager,Sims etc all have their own forums already, so that takes out a lot of major PC-only games and discussion. Having a general Steam community thread, Origin community etc for sharing profiles etc is handy, but whilst it's annoying in the Games forum to see those threads imo, they're not really in need of their own forum. Indie game discussion is something that I could also see end up moving there, but that can take away a lot from the Games forum as instead of seeing a game pop up that takes you be surprise, it's a list of AAA games discussion. Even outside of Indie, but bigger games that wouldn't have a giant marketing budget could end up shut off in their forum rather than appearing on the main Games forum and more people seeing them.


Without stepping on other forums, you're pretty much looking at topics of Steam/Origin/etc profiles, and technical stuff like how can I get a game e.g Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines working on windows 7/8 or something similar. I'm not sure it'd be a very heavily used forum if created without bringing in other stuff, and taking away from others.

Also, if you're getting rid of the Steam forum, get rid of RPG and Strategy whilst you're at it, there's even less of a need for them.

Myrddin

gizmo wrote: »

Arcade & Retro doesn't cover the types of games you've mentioned as being viable threads for discussion on this forum though, e.g. older in the sense that they're just out of the limelight. Anyway, it's more of a mod issue and is probably something that can be clarified in the Charter. My main concern is simply the risk of splitting potential games based discussion away from the Games forum.

Let me try to reassure all of the Games forum users, this forum will not allowed to be affected in any way. Personally I'd consider this forum the flagship forum of the category, & these proposals only serve to suggest that we can possibly take advantage of what's not happening in this forum, not what is happening.

For example, if I pluck a game from page 10 or 20 of this forum & start a thread about it in a theoretical PC Gaming forum...will it in any way affect this forum? I really, really doubt it. When a game is new, current, in the limelight, or already exists in here as an active thread...then that will stay the way it is. But if someone wants to have a chat about Stalker, or Half Life, or Crysis, or Bioshock, or even stuff like Sleeping Dogs etc...those threads would die a death in this forum because the content on page 1 is always so fresh, & the turnover of threads so fast.

A PC Gaming forum might give an angle to allow those threads to actually work out, the turnover there would be slower, & the main thing is it'd in no way affect this forum...in fact the two forums could possibly even compliment each other.

I should have been more specific here, sorry. I didn't mean general "What graphics card should I get?" type things, moreso topics such as Oculus Rift and the influence VR will have on gaming in the future, in-home streaming tech via SteamOS or nVidia GameStream and smaller, more gaming-orientated peripherals like mechanical keyboards and the gaming specific advantages they offer over their membrane-based brethren.

Ah I see, I think those type of things would absolutely be welcome in a PC Gaming forum, they're relevant to pc gaming, & don't conflict with existing fora in any way. So yep, definitely add those to the list of possible subjects.

Myrddin

titan18 wrote: »

Multiple issues really with it (and some of the ideas suggested).

Steam and Valve doesn't really need a sub-forum by itself. Probably one of the largest Steam related threads would be Summer and Christmas Sales. No reason why that can't be in the Games forum as a thread. It tends to be highly active so having it in Gaming Bargains is messy, but doesn't need a whole sub-forum. SteamOS and SteamBox aren't popular enough yet to justify one either, so really you're left with technical issues.

Yep, happy enough to concede that...it's not working as we expected.

There was a comparison made to putting a new PC Gaming forum in with Nintendo,Xbox and Playstation, and older games would be discussed. For the most part, there's very little game discussion in the console forums. It's about the console itself and it's features, and game discussion tends to relate mostly to upcoming games you're looking forward too, games you should buy etc, rather than individual discussions on something like The Last of Us, or an Xbox only discussion on Titanfall or something. Game discussion is generally contained within the Games forum, barring stuff like MMOs,MOBAs, COD,FIFA, GTA etc. Those sub-forums also help for technical issue discussion, but for PC Gaming, there's too much of an overlap with the Tech forum or PC Building and Upgrading for it to need a separate forum here.

It's not directly comparable with the console forums though, for a start, Arcade & Retro covers any & all past console gaming from hardware to software. For whatever reason, A&R is not something that older pc gaming tends to be discussed in, so there is a gap there. Is there an interest in discussing older games? Would it help if there was a place to discuss them & all other aspects of pc gaming? That's what we're looking to evaluate with this thread

Whilst you could create a PC Gaming forum, I'm not sure how you can split the discussion. MOBAs, MMOs, Football Manager,Sims etc all have their own forums already, so that takes out a lot of major PC-only games and discussion. Having a general Steam community thread, Origin community etc for sharing profiles etc is handy, but whilst it's annoying in the Games forum to see those threads imo, they're not really in need of their own forum. Indie game discussion is something that I could also see end up moving there, but that can take away a lot from the Games forum as instead of seeing a game pop up that takes you be surprise, it's a list of AAA games discussion. Even outside of Indie, but bigger games that wouldn't have a giant marketing budget could end up shut off in their forum rather than appearing on the main Games forum and more people seeing them.

The niche genres are certainly catered to, but what of games outside of the scope those forums offer? Indie games would be no different to how all games would be handled...if it's a new or upcoming Indie game then it belongs in this forum...if it's a n indie game out of the spotlight, or slightly older, why not send it over to PC Gaming where the thread would stay current for longer? Of course it might not work out in the end, but on paper at least, it seems like a good idea. Also, it gives us some scope to possibly clean up the category as a whole, by either assimilating some old/dying forums or maybe making them subforums of it.

Also, if you're getting rid of the Steam forum, get rid of RPG and Strategy whilst you're at it, there's even less of a need for them.

Again we're certainly open to category feedback, but one step at a time I think will serve us best

Magill

While a lot of the concerns people have are fair, I still think there is a place for a PC gaming forum.

I'd imagine there will probably be a bit of overlap with some other forums (PC Building in particular) but there is still quite a bit on the hardware side that would just suit better in a forum dedicated for actual gaming on PC... you know like actual gaming gear and new technologies like the Oculus Rift.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least as active as the Xbox forum as there is just a much broader scope for topics than you'd find on either of the consoles outside of the individual games imo.

Unless your plan is to delete the steam forum... i honestly don't get why there would be any objection to renaming it to at the very least include other services such as Origin.

CastorTroy

I suppose the big question is Can you get Gaben to mod it?

Grumpypants

Myrddin wrote: »

I think there might be a very slight tech element that could creep in, such things are inevitable with pc chat...but again we're trying to be absolutely fair to forums that already cater to this stuff outside of the category. If the tech talk would relate to the game in some way, as in what specs maybe you run it on (or can't run it on) then maybe that'd be ok...but when it comes to hardware advice & how-to-upgrade type talk etc...that's really leaving the realms of the Games cat.


.

In terms of talking about hardware I would think the "how to install" or "recommend me a card" threads would go to the PC building forum, but the stuff that would never fit in that forum would work in a dedicated PC gaming forum.

Things like new technologies like the steam box, Oculus Rift, talking about a new line of graphics cards or keyboards etc. New software like the Mantle API or streaming services. Discussions on the best settings for a certain game etc.

Mix in a healthy does of PC games and it would be great. The main cross platform games would still fit in the main Games forum but there are enough PC only games that it would work and make it worth visiting.

Myrddin

Grumpypants wrote: »

In terms of talking about hardware I would think the "how to install" or "recommend me a card" threads would go to the PC building forum, but the stuff that would never fit in that forum would work in a dedicated PC gaming forum.

Things like new technologies like the steam box, Oculus Rift, talking about a new line of graphics cards or keyboards etc. New software like the Mantle API or streaming services. Discussions on the best settings for a certain game etc.

Mix in a healthy does of PC games and it would be great. The main cross platform games would still fit in the main Games forum but there are enough PC only games that it would work and make it worth visiting.

That's more or less it, & I'd be happy with the above.

Just to highlight how fast the threads turn around in this forum, it's less than 24 hours since Grumpypants' post above...& this page was at the top of page 2, where it could easily be missed out on by someone just browsing. So if this was a thread about a game that was a year or two old, & not a brand new thread with a request for feedback, can you see how quickly it would die in this forum? All we're suggesting is, we try out the ideas set out in the first post...we're not suggesting changing this forum in any way shape or form

Kur4mA

Myrddin wrote: »

Bit late for that, considering the forum already exists

Hmm, not really. It's just 1's and 0's at the end of the day... you could remove it.

Sierra Oscar

kyub wrote: »

Hmm, not really. It's just 1's and 0's at the end of the day... you could remove it.

I think it is important to highlight that the Steam & Valve forum came about as a result of a merger of a number of smaller inactive forums, such as Counter Strike & Half Life. It was not something that was just conjured up out of thin air. It was noted that we had various inactive forums, and moves were made to consolidate them. The move actually cut-down on the number of forums we have, it was not an expansion.

SmurfX

I suppose I don't really see the reason why Playstation, Nintendo, Xbox, PC Gaming and even stuff like Pokemon are segregated so much when there's such huge overlap between them all and when most of them have either low traffic or are dying.
I know small boards of highly specific topicality is the boards.ie way but I'd much rather a very active board across the gaming platforms with the necessary general threads instead.

Sulla Felix

I think the games forum works, by and large. There's a bit of shítposting but not all that much. You could delete steam/valve and leave the rest as is tbh.