Online petition to amend/revoke new building regs for self builds under BC(A)R SI.9

mullingar

The petition count is so low

mandy gall

mullingar wrote: »

The petition count is so low

Its only a baby. It needs feeding. Do your best to spread the word. It will grow up and kick the s*** out of the SI9.

mullingar

mandy gall wrote: »

Its only a baby. It needs feeding. Do your best to spread the word. It will grow up and kick the s*** out of the SI9.

That's just it, if we don't feed it it will die a slow painful death.

Anyone good at developing boards.ie signatures ??

The first half decent one will definitely go under my name here

mullingar

Well until someone comes up with a better sig, I'm going with this one

mullingar

I see whoever created the petition dropped their target goal from 10,000 to 1,000

4Sticks

Well over the last year or two we have been building about 3000 one off houses annually only in Ireland - so aiming for 10,000 signatures was pushing it.
Sadly until people are directly confronted by this law - they will remain indifferent to it.

mullingar

It was a bit on the ambitious side considering the amount of people that will be directly affected in the next year/2

cork2

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. This will mean a lot more input in projects from professionals within the industry, professionals and trades standing over their work and being made accountable and much more paperwork and overseeing on the health and safety side of things. Somebody mentioned builders being jealous of self builders to be honest I see that as a childish argument, The side of the industry I'm in is buildings that don't meet regs, are unsafe, or are unfinished and to be honest MOST not all of them are self builds. Somebody also mentioned that in a self build that if the self builder doesn't do it it doesn't get done and I agree but what if that something is a crucial job that two trades deem to be each others job and walk away from it. I'm a construction worker and I'm very good at it. I'm good at it because I spent years learning and training. If you are in the industry and you walk around 99% of self builds you will know they are self builds, the finish just isn't there. Now when it comes to finish if it's what you want fair enough but I'm just pointing out things are missing and there was no builder to pull people on it. Without giving too much information the house I'm currently working on was a single skin timber frame building with imported windows. A single skin timber frame isn't ideal to say the least in this country, but anything is doable. The factory made frame was never designed for the windows nor did they know anything about them. The window company brought windows and fitted them as they would in the country of origin knowing no different. Problem being when it rains outside the rain pours in around the windows and there was nobody onsite to recognise the problem before it was too late. Then carpenters sheeted the outside of the building and did query what was happening but the home owner didn't actually understand the problem. So two years later I'm stripping the house of sheeting and removing the windows. When this house originally went out to tender the cheapest price was 575,000 and the dearest was 730,000 they went the self build route and got there dream home for 420,000 so far trying to dry the house has cost 95,000 euro and it's the tip of the iceberg due to the horrific problems being found everyday and that's just our work. I'd be afraid to see how much they've spent on a structural engineer who tbh I think is at a loss as to the stupidity of the problems found, they've also taken the window company to court and lost and have been advised not to take the timber frame company. These cases are more common than people may like to believe and tbh I feel bad for these homeowners but a part of me says they opted to be the builder it was their call. Project management is the most important part of a build and nobody can do that aswell as a builder or a fulltime employed and experienced project manager. In a lot of countries must be a qualified and certified contractor to build a house and even then building control will over see it. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

wirehairmax

cork2 wrote: »

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. This will mean a lot more input in projects from professionals within the industry, professionals and trades standing over their work and being made accountable and much more paperwork and overseeing on the health and safety side of things. Somebody mentioned builders being jealous of self builders to be honest I see that as a childish argument, The side of the industry I'm in is buildings that don't meet regs, are unsafe, or are unfinished and to be honest MOST not all of them are self builds. Somebody also mentioned that in a self build that if the self builder doesn't do it it doesn't get done and I agree but what if that something is a crucial job that two trades deem to be each others job and walk away from it. I'm a construction worker and I'm very good at it. I'm good at it because I spent years learning and training. If you are in the industry and you walk around 99% of self builds you will know they are self builds, the finish just isn't there. Now when it comes to finish if it's what you want fair enough but I'm just pointing out things are missing and there was no builder to pull people on it. Without giving too much information the house I'm currently working on was a single skin timber frame building with imported windows. A single skin timber frame isn't ideal to say the least in this country, but anything is doable. The factory made frame was never designed for the windows nor did they know anything about them. The window company brought windows and fitted them as they would in the country of origin knowing no different. Problem being when it rains outside the rain pours in around the windows and there was nobody onsite to recognise the problem before it was too late. Then carpenters sheeted the outside of the building and did query what was happening but the home owner didn't actually understand the problem. So two years later I'm stripping the house of sheeting and removing the windows. When this house originally went out to tender the cheapest price was 575,000 and the dearest was 730,000 they went the self build route and got there dream home for 420,000 so far trying to dry the house has cost 95,000 euro and it's the tip of the iceberg due to the horrific problems being found everyday and that's just our work. I'd be afraid to see how much they've spent on a structural engineer who tbh I think is at a loss as to the stupidity of the problems found, they've also taken the window company to court and lost and have been advised not to take the timber frame company. These cases are more common than people may like to believe and tbh I feel bad for these homeowners but a part of me says they opted to be the builder it was their call. Project management is the most important part of a build and nobody can do that aswell as a builder or a fulltime employed and experienced project manager. In a lot of countries must be a qualified and certified contractor to build a house and even then building control will over see it. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

Well said. You always hear about the success stories but there are so many many disasters out there that nobody brags about on the web or down the pub.

mandy gall

cork2 wrote: »

As an individual who works in the construction industry and has done for years I believe this is a generally a good thing. self builds. I don't go out selling car insurance, pulling teeth or representing people in a court room so please don't think you can do my job either.

I would never think I could do your job - i've said before I admire tradesmen. My husband on the other hand is a top class tradesman. In the town we live in there are buildings constructed by Contractors which are an absolute disgrace, falling apart. Then there are self build houses - which are absolutely beautiful. That's a fact. You should sign this petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/self-build-rights-ireland

because according to you, most self builds are crap - so that should mean more work for you coming to fix them. There will be so, so many self builds that simply won't exist with SI9 - so less work for you. You may as well sign!

cork2

mandy gall wrote: »

I would never think I could do your job - i've said before I admire tradesmen. My husband on the other hand is a top class tradesman. In the town we live in there are buildings constructed by Contractors which are an absolute disgrace, falling apart. Then there are self build houses - which are absolutely beautiful. That's a fact. You should sign this petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/self-build-rights-ireland

because according to you, most self builds are crap - so that should mean more work for you coming to fix them. There will be so, so many self builds that simply won't exist with SI9 - so less work for you. You may as well sign!

Haha nice try

mandy gall

You cant blame a girl for trying! I just think the regs should include self builders. We were for sure building to regulations, its very upsetting. I do hope your business thrives in the future! Now please sign :rolleyes:

kkelliher

mandy gall wrote: »

I would never think I could do your job - i've said before I admire tradesmen. My husband on the other hand is a top class tradesman. In the town we live in there are buildings constructed by Contractors which are an absolute disgrace, falling apart. Then there are self build houses - which are absolutely beautiful. That's a fact

I am sure that there are innocent people in prison so should we just ban prisons and let everyone out? You have to have a system that works for the majority and self builders will struggle to meet the requirements of any system that is proposed as they will always be the minority group in the housing sector

whupdedo

mandy gall wrote: »

You cant blame a girl for trying! I just think the regs should include self builders. We were for sure building to regulations, its very upsetting. I do hope your business thrives in the future! Now please sign :rolleyes:

You seem to have lost the run of yourself mandy, your talking of fighting to the death and suicide and being better off dead if this is passed, are you being serious?

You say your husband is a tradesman, well if he, why on earth would he be against regs that will improve his working environment, take out any unqualified (I use the term unqualified loosely as I have worked with unqualified tradesmen that have more experience and common sense than most college graduates on site) and poor tradesmen thus increasing his chances of employment

Health and safety on most self builds is atrocious, i have worked on houses that have been poorly scaffolded, no hard hats no high visibility and who's owners think their new house is a playground for their kids after school, I'm sorry but most tradesmen nowadays don't want their scaffolding put up by a guard, teacher, civil servant or a nurse, and believe me I'm not making this stuff up, I have seen it happen

You say your fighting this on behalf of your five kids who are entitled to build their own house when they grow up, well I hope they do, but only if they can afford to, they have no entitlement no more than I do if they can't afford to build a house to current specs when they eventually build

I won't be signing the petition because as a skilled sometimes unemployed self employed tradesman I am sick to my back teeth of thumpers, cowboys, know it alls thinking they can do the same job that I do for less money while on the social and doing inferior work

mandy gall

whupdedo wrote: »

You seem to have lost the run of yourself mandy, your talking of fighting to the death and suicide and being better off dead if this is passed, are you being serious?

You say your husband is a tradesman, well if he, why on earth would he be against regs that will improve his working environment, take out any unqualified (I use the term unqualified loosely as I have worked with unqualified tradesmen that have more experience and common sense than most college graduates on site) and poor tradesmen thus increasing his chances of employment

Health and safety on most self builds is atrocious, i have worked on houses that have been poorly scaffolded, no hard hats no high visibility and who's owners think their new house is a playground for their kids after school, I'm sorry but most tradesmen nowadays don't want their scaffolding put up by a guard, teacher, civil servant or a nurse, and believe me I'm not making this stuff up, I have seen it happen

You say your fighting this on behalf of your five kids who are entitled to build their own house when they grow up, well I hope they do, but only if they can afford to, they have no entitlement no more than I do if they can't afford to build a house to current specs when they eventually build

I won't be signing the petition because as a skilled sometimes unemployed self employed tradesman I am sick to my back teeth of thumpers, cowboys, know it alls thinking they can do the same job that I do for less money while on the social and doing inferior work

Listen to the Morning Ireland Interview - Feb 28 - a very very depressed carpenter talking about these regs. you must be on another planet if you think these regs are a good thing for tradesmen. Not at all - Direct Labour is gone - only if you are under a Building Contractors wing so to speak will you get work I know many many tradesmen who are not 'in' with any Contractor - so they are screwed now. It is not only me that knows this - there are lawyers, politicians, architects, engineers, surveyors also.
A register of Qualified Tradesmen is now required - available a each local authority - so that people can choose their 'builders' - not the nonsensical 'ciri' - by the way I see you mention 'cowboys on the social' building for the self builder - I dont see how you can say this as the Building Contractor doesnt hold the sub contractors by the hand to make sure they are tax compliant - that is a nonsensical statement. An Independent Building Inspectorate based on the U.K. sysem is THE ONLY system that will satisfy all parties. If we all work together we can achieve this. Sign here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/self-build-rights-ireland

mandy gall

kkelliher wrote: »

I am sure that there are innocent people in prison so should we just ban prisons and let everyone out? You have to have a system that works for the majority and self builders will struggle to meet the requirements of any system that is proposed as they will always be the minority group in the housing sector

I think you've got that backwards - Its the Building Contractors that are the minority group - 60% of one off new houses are self builds.. self builds kept the builders merchants etc..afloat since the cowboy contractors legged it - comparing prisoners to building regs is a paddys day joke i hope.

By the way - do you think non-qualified tradesmen should be allowed on the same register as qualified tradesmen?

whupdedo

mandy gall wrote: »

- by the way I see you mention 'cowboys on the social' building for the self builder - I dont see how you can say this as the Building Contractor doesnt hold the sub contractors by the hand to make sure they are tax compliant - that is a nonsensical statement.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/self-build-rights-ireland

If you knew anything about it you would surely know that a sub contractor working for a builder has to be first registered with the revenue online and if they are not tax compliant them they get a percentage of total cost deducted at source from payment

whupdedo

mandy gall wrote: »

I think you've got that backwards - Its the Building Contractors that are the minority group - 60% of one off new houses are self builds.. self builds kept the builders merchants etc..afloat since the cowboy contractors legged it - comparing prisoners to building regs is a paddys day joke i hope.

By the way - do you think non-qualified tradesmen should be allowed on the same register as qualified tradesmen?

I have met many unqualified tradesmen that are far superior than qualified, the training system for Carpenters plasterers and blocklayers is something that can be learned from site experience without fas training

mandy gall

whupdedo wrote: »

If you knew anything about it you would surely know that a sub contractor working for a builder has to be first registered with the revenue online and if they are not tax compliant them they get a percentage of total cost deducted at source from payment

This is not about tax compliancy - the whole argument is that SI9 exclude self builders - that is my primary concern - im sure of you take a look back at your ancestory i bet your grandfather & great-grandfather were self builders - what would they make of these ridiculous regs? They would tell you sign the petition.

kkelliher

mandy gall wrote: »

I think you've got that backwards - Its the Building Contractors that are the minority group - 60% of one off new houses are self builds.. self builds kept the builders merchants etc..afloat since the cowboy contractors legged it - comparing prisoners to building regs is a paddys day joke i hope.

By the way - do you think non-qualified tradesmen should be allowed on the same register as qualified tradesmen?

I am sorry but this just shows what little actual knowledge of the industry you have. The industry is far bigger than you clearly believe and self builders are without doubt a minor player and hence they are in this positon.

cork2

mandy gall wrote: »

I think you've got that backwards - Its the Building Contractors that are the minority group - 60% of one off new houses are self builds.. self builds kept the builders merchants etc..afloat since the cowboy contractors legged it - comparing prisoners to building regs is a paddys day joke i hope.

By the way - do you think non-qualified tradesmen should be allowed on the same register as qualified tradesmen?

I wouldn't think keeping the builders merchants or the likes afloat is a sensible statement to make at all now to be honest! Self builders paid they're bonuses and commissions alright though because a self builder won't get anywhere near trades prices from the merchants. Merchants look after the opportunity for repeat business.

mandy gall

kkelliher wrote: »

I am sorry but this just shows what little actual knowledge of the industry you have. The industry is far bigger than you clearly believe and self builders are without doubt a minor player and hence they are in this positon.

Correct i am a simple housewife - you are talking as if self building is over in Ireland

kkelliher

mandy gall wrote: »

Correct i am a simple housewife - you are talking as if self building is over in Ireland

No its just not as big a sector as you believe it is. It effects you so you are trying to make it a greater issue than it is. The industry as a whole is much bigger and therefore as i have said from the start, any regs will be based on those who actually work in the industry and not those who dip a toe for a while

whupdedo

mandy gall wrote: »

Correct i am a simple housewife - you are talking as if self building is over in Ireland

You lost all credibility by that simple housewife statement.if you claim to be just a simple housewife then you are posting way above your station in this forum, what knowledge of the building industry would a simple housewife have.

mandy gall

whupdedo wrote: »

You lost all credibility by that simple housewife statement.if you claim to be just a simple housewife then you are posting way above your station in this forum, what knowledge of the building industry would a simple housewife have.

I know alot more than some of the cowboy contractors around. It is totally absurd that the SI9 should prohibit self builders. You dont need much intelligence to understand that. Sybil Fawlty had the right idea with her brolly attack on Mr OReilly! Housewives are extremely good at spotting Bulls*** s mile away! The SI 9 is just that.

BryanF

mandy have a day off to claim down

BryanF

have a week off for suggesting the following

whupdedo wrote: »

You lost all credibility by that simple housewife statement.if you claim to be just a simple housewife then you are posting way above your station in this forum, what knowledge of the building industry would a simple housewife have.

Everyone has the right post on this forum!!!

Hairy mellon

based on recent breg forum posts cost for self-build is +€40,000 due to si.9 for a typical €200,000 house

cost/benefit?

BryanF

Hairy mellon wrote: »

based on recent breg forum posts cost for self-build is +€40,000 due to si.9 for a typical €200,000 house

cost/benefit?

Link?

DOCARCH

BryanF wrote: »

Link?

Here ya go...http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/si-9-costs-for-a-typical-dwelling/

Hairy mellon

apologies i thought direct links weren't allowed- that's the one

galwaytt

DOCARCH wrote: »

Here ya go...http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/si-9-costs-for-a-typical-dwelling/

Indeed. I was told by a local RIAI Arch that he'd want 140 hours per house, so the numbers are fairly consistent.

I do have to raise an eyebrow at the €60k salary that blog is basing it on though....

Hairy mellon

according to ACE survey 2013 60% of RIAI practices were sole traders earning €56k gross per annum- net was quite a bit less (net expenses, office rent, insurances, overheads etc) but gives realistic basis for hourly rate. Remember also add on 23% vat to consumer also...

RITwing

galwaytt wrote: »

I do have to raise an eyebrow at the €60k salary that blog is basing it on though....

How much should an individual , educated and with adequate experience to act as AC/DC be paid then ?

galwaytt

RITwing wrote: »

How much should an individual , educated and with adequate experience to act as AC/DC be paid then ?

Considering that up to the introduction of SI9, and given that AT's were effectively doing this for half that salary, I would ask you the same ??

RITwing

At least €60k.
Now you answer please

RITwing

galwaytt wrote: »

AT's were effectively doing this for half that salary,

None that I know I can assure of that. Are you seriuosly suggesting that those expected to perform such an onerous task should be expected to be paid less than the average industrial wage ?

.

newbie2013

What about the poor ****ers that are a jack of all trades who can build their own house in compliance with the regs, these poor ****ers are finished

RITwing

newbie2013 wrote: »

What about the poor ****ers that are a jack of all trades who can build their own house in compliance with the regs, these poor ****ers are finished

Sign the petition. Next time there is any sort of election let the canvassers know your thoughts.

galwaytt

RITwing wrote: »

None that I know I can assure of that. Are you seriuosly suggesting that those expected to perform such an onerous task should be expected to be paid less than the average industrial wage ?

.

I suggested no such thing.

I pointed out that AT's who up to recently did much of that (SI9 type) legwork, often as employees of Architects, and which is borne out this forum, and who are now cast into professional limbo by the RIAI in particular got nothing like 60k.

I'm all for equity and parity of esteem, but that's a two way street, and there is a real economy to be lived in.

RITwing

You've lost me now.
If you can please answer
What salary do you think an SI 9 AC/DC certifier be fairly paid?
Without your eyebrow being raised.

newbie2013

whupdedo wrote: »

You seem to have lost the run of yourself mandy, your talking of fighting to the death and suicide and being better off dead if this is passed, are you being serious?

You say your husband is a tradesman, well if he, why on earth would he be against regs that will improve his working environment, take out any unqualified (I use the term unqualified loosely as I have worked with unqualified tradesmen that have more experience and common sense than most college graduates on site) and poor tradesmen thus increasing his chances of employment

Health and safety on most self builds is atrocious, i have worked on houses that have been poorly scaffolded, no hard hats no high visibility and who's owners think their new house is a playground for their kids after school, I'm sorry but most tradesmen nowadays don't want their scaffolding put up by a guard, teacher, civil servant or a nurse, and believe me I'm not making this stuff up, I have seen it happen

You say your fighting this on behalf of your five kids who are entitled to build their own house when they grow up, well I hope they do, but only if they can afford to, they have no entitlement no more than I do if they can't afford to build a house to current specs when they eventually build

I won't be signing the petition because as a skilled sometimes unemployed self employed tradesman I am sick to my back teeth of thumpers, cowboys, know it alls thinking they can do the same job that I do for less money while on the social and doing inferior work

Anyone can manage a build with the right attitude. Fs you just have to look at grand designs or other TV programs concerning building houses in the UK where we have people manage very big jobs and finish them to a high standard.

As for these new regs, they have just destroyed an ancient old tradition of one building hisbown home. I actually think its a rule that's against our basic human right. Yes I understand there needed to be a change but these changes are so out of real with common sense its mind blowing. Only the Irish can make something so fcuked up when needing a change!

RITwing

7 The “self-builders”

The regulations provide for a statutory “Undertaking by Builder” and statutory “Certificate of Compliance on Completion” “to be signed by a Principal or Director of a building company only” with a space left blank for insertion of a “Construction Industry Register Ireland registration number (where applicable)”.

On the face of it, the criteria for eligibility to sign the forms, which also include a requirement that these people be “competent” exclude a private person acting in their own capacity from so certifying. The Irish Association of Self Builders say this is increasing their construction costs by 10% due to a need to appoint a contractor to manage their projects. This is on top of the outlays “self-builders” incur to appoint a design Certifier and an Assigned Certifier on each project.

The Minister has opined that a competent self-builder is not excluded from acting on her or his own behalf.

Six months in, it is too early to say how solicitors acting on behalf of funding agencies such as banks or building societies, or on behalf of persons seeking to buy such houses in the event of their being sold, will react to “self-signed certificates”. Is it too cynical to imagine that where a bank wishes to delay a loan, it would never raise a question about such a certificate? Perhaps it is.

source