Disgruntled Garda Reserve member

DesertCreat_15

bubblypop wrote: »

Well they had to reduce the numbers somehow.

There has always been some sort of exam done first.
Would you suggest they interview everyone?

I can understand the need to cut down numbers initially, however was there a need to have a stage 2?

As you are well aware stage 2 was considerably more difficult than stage 1, why couldn't that aptitude be used rather than the easier 1st stage ap test?

Kind of seems like a waste to me.

Anyway from that, they could have invited the top 1 to 2k candidates to sit the supervised aptitude test first and progressed them as they see fit.

Those in band 2/3(which should be smaller than they currently are IMO) could have been tested over the following weeks.

Thats how I would have like to have seen it done, but sure I am only a statistic.

hopeful8

DesertCreat_15 wrote: »

I can understand the need to cut down numbers initially, however was there a need to have a stage 2?

As you are well aware stage 2 was considerably more difficult than stage 1, why couldn't that aptitude be used rather than the easier 1st stage ap test?

Kind of seems like a waste to me.

Anyway from that, they could have invited the top 1 to 2k candidates to sit the supervised aptitude test first and progressed them as they see fit.

Those in band 2/3(which should be smaller than they currently are IMO) could have been tested over the following weeks.

Thats how I would have like to have seen it done, but sure I am only a statistic.

But that's not the way it's done is it? And you think it should be that way because YOU'D like it that way? There's no one here disgruntled ye are bitter. They were 100% with the aptitude tests it's used the world over to measure intelligence levels. It's on the stage three notification if someone is found to get marks well below what they got online they will not be considered, so it couldn't be fairer. Lads ye are talking absolute tripe about recognition, ye get expenses, ye get job satisfaction apparently, what more do ye want?

DesertCreat_15

hopeful8 wrote: »

But that's not the way it's done is it? And you think it should be that way because YOU'D like it that way? There's no one here disgruntled ye are bitter. They were 100% with the aptitude tests it's used the world over to measure intelligence levels. It's on the stage three notification if someone is found to get marks well below what they got online they will not be considered, so it couldn't be fairer. Lads ye are talking absolute tripe about recognition, ye get expenses, ye get job satisfaction apparently, what more do ye want?

Just for the record for a second time, i'm not a reserve !

Also see my previous post. Am I Annoyed ? Yes, quite !

Zadie10

hopeful8 wrote: »

There's no one here disgruntled ye are bitter.

Who exactly is bitter?!
I'm through to Stage 3 this week so it's no skin off my nose, I'm just giving my opinion on how I think it should be done (the UK way).
You're the one getting agitated here

Santa Cruz

hopeful8 wrote: »

But that's not the way it's done is it? And you think it should be that way because YOU'D like it that way? There's no one here disgruntled ye are bitter. They were 100% with the aptitude tests it's used the world over to measure intelligence levels. It's on the stage three notification if someone is found to get marks well below what they got online they will not be considered, so it couldn't be fairer. Lads ye are talking absolute tripe about recognition, ye get expenses, ye get job satisfaction apparently, what more do ye want?

This is getting better by the minute.

Leml123

I promised myself that this would be the last time I check out this page. I find it hard to tell if some of the people posting are genuine or just trolling!!

I would also love to know why one particular poster has such a hatred for the reserves. It seems to be very personal whatever it is. People joined the garda reserve for many different reasons. I am not going to get into them all but yes some people joined because they want to contribute to the community. I personally did not join for that reason and I have no problem being honest. I joined because I was basically told to by a superintendent in my garda interview back in 2008. I love the job and get great satisfaction from doing it but I do not want to be a reserve for the rest of my life. I want to progress and improve myself development. If there is no sign of progressing any further then yes, I will resign.

I find it comical when people say they are not in a position to join the garda reserve. I work more than the average working week, the hours I do work conflict with my reserve duties, I study part time and I also try making it to the gym once a week, I also have family and friends. I have had to juggle my life around. There have been times I have done a shift with my unit, even though it may be my only day off that week or I have had assignments or exams due. I've worked times when most people don't want to work or when celebrations or on such as Stephens day, new years eve, paddy's day, festivals, Halloween etc. Times when most people are out enjoying themselves with their family or friends. I do believe that some people genuinely are not in a position t join the garda reserve but for most it is just an easy excuse and it will not be enough if asked at interview stage.

Lastly, I have said it before but those aptitude tests do not prove if someone will make a good garda. They are the easiest way of cutting numbers pure and simple. Yes, they should be used but if you pass the aptitude test you should be called to the next stage at some point, not a case of you might be called but you also might not be. If you meet the requirements, you should progress.

hopeful8

hopeful8 wrote: »

Seriously, I have no gripe with any reserves, I know two gone forward that I believe would be fantastic policemen, others no way they would be suitable. I never said the aptitude tests would dictate whether a person would make a good Garda. I said they used it to get the most intelligent in that regard into an interview room first. Others have posted here saying they think it should be 150 from the reserves and 150 from the civilians, ridiculous. There were what 30,000 applicants? Get the most intelligent as dictated by the tests into an interview room first and see if they tick the boxes required. If they're not move to the next group and so on, that's fairness. As I said the reserves isn't an apprenticeship, it's the reserves.

Leml123

hopeful8 wrote: »

hopeful8 wrote: »

Seriously, I have no gripe with any reserves, I know two gone forward that I believe would be fantastic policemen, others no way they would be suitable. I never said the aptitude tests would dictate whether a person would make a good Garda. I said they used it to get the most intelligent in that regard into an interview room first. Others have posted here saying they think it should be 150 from the reserves and 150 from the civilians, ridiculous. There were what 30,000 applicants? Get the most intelligent as dictated by the tests into an interview room first and see if they tick the boxes required. If they're not move to the next group and so on, that's fairness. As I said the reserves isn't an apprenticeship, it's the reserves.

Sorry ya see the difficulty I have is that the handful of people I know that are top 600 are far from intelligent!!

hopeful8

Leml123 wrote: »

hopeful8 wrote: »

Sorry ya see the difficulty I have is that the handful of people I know that are top 600 are far from intelligent!!

That's fair enough, I'm sure they will be found out if that's the case. All I hope is that they get the right people in, which they will, nobody will bluff the interview I know that much. So as long as you're someway towards the top and suitable I'm sure you will get in, best of luck.

Shady Tady

Leml123 wrote: »

hopeful8 wrote: »

Sorry ya see the difficulty I have is that the handful of people I know that are top 600 are far from intelligent!!

In your opinion!

Leml123

Yeah... anyway best of luck to everyone still in the competition!

Raider190

hopeful8 wrote: »

hopeful8 wrote: »

Seriously, I have no gripe with any reserves, I know two gone forward that I believe would be fantastic policemen, others no way they would be suitable. I never said the aptitude tests would dictate whether a person would make a good Garda. I said they used it to get the most intelligent in that regard into an interview room first. Others have posted here saying they think it should be 150 from the reserves and 150 from the civilians, ridiculous. There were what 30,000 applicants? Get the most intelligent as dictated by the tests into an interview room first and see if they tick the boxes required. If they're not move to the next group and so on, that's fairness. As I said the reserves isn't an apprenticeship, it's the reserves.

Interest perceptions. What qualifies your opinion, what experience of the reserve do you have. ??????

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

hopeful8 wrote: »

Interest perceptions. What qualifies your opinion, what experience of the reserve do you have. ??????

Also an interesting perception. I don't think there is any big secret as to what they do or don't do it's been done to death here. It's obvious that they government and DOJ haven't given them much respect when looking to recruit full time members, I think that says it all!!

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

Raider190 wrote: »

Also an interesting perception. I don't think there is any big secret as to what they do or don't do it's been done to death here. It's obvious that they government and DOJ haven't given them much respect when looking to recruit full time members, I think that says it all!!

And what qualifies you to state that. Do you know how many GRS have moved to stage three....no. Do you know how many will reach the interview stage....no. Do you know how a GRS experience will impress the interview panel....no. Do you know how many GRS will succeed through all stages and become full time members...,..,no.

So No it doesn't say it all. It is all conjecture at this point

hopeful8

Raider190 wrote: »

Interest perceptions. What qualifies your opinion, what experience of the reserve do you have. ??????

Iv worked with them the last 5 years, although none as opinionated or as heroic as you.

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

Shady Tady wrote: »

And what qualifies you to state that. Do you know how many GRS have moved to stage three....no. Do you know how many will reach the interview stage....no. Do you know how a GRS experience will impress the interview panel....no. Do you know how many GRS will succeed through all stages and become full time members...,..,no.

So No it doesn't say it all. It is all conjecture at this point

There will be very few as previously explained here when this campaign started. Do I know where the plane is? No

Zadie10

hopeful8 wrote: »

Iv worked with them the last 5 years

You simply must share your tips with us on how you BS'd through the interview in relation to accepting the opinions of others, and keeping calm under provocation ... Cheers

Santa Cruz

hopeful8 wrote: »

Iv worked with them the last 5 years, although none as opinionated or as heroic as you.

Obviously you are employed in some backwater station and don't mingle with the high ranking movers and shakers that Raider does.

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

There will be very few as previously explained here when this campaign started. Do I know where the plane is? No

Don't think you are right but time will tell.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Obviously you are employed in some backwater station and don't mingle with the high ranking movers and shakers that Raider does.

Another dig Cruz . Ah well to be expected really . Back to the topic

hopeful8 wrote: »

Iv worked with them the last 5 years, although none as opinionated or as heroic as you.

I could say the same with regard to you but why make it personal. Opinionated most definitely ,heroic don't think so. Perhaps you are part of that small number of the regular who prefer the reserves have no opinion and sit quietly in the station. Perhaps that's your experience of the reserve. I don't know. It was a simple question I posted in order to establish if your comments are derived from experience from been in or working with the reserve but your response does you no credit. Oh and by the way how do you know we have not worked together.

hopeful8 wrote: »

Lads get real here, they've taken the best people on the grounds of their results so far, do ye believe that a reserve is that far ahead of a non reserve? They want potential Guards, which is what a reserve and civilian are.

The difference been is one has no experience and the other does . Simple as that

hopeful8 wrote: »

But that's not the way it's done is it? And you think it should be that way because YOU'D like it that way? There's no one here disgruntled ye are bitter. They were 100% with the aptitude tests it's used the world over to measure intelligence levels. It's on the stage three notification if someone is found to get marks well below what they got online they will not be considered, so it couldn't be fairer. Lads ye are talking absolute tripe about recognition, ye get expenses, ye get job satisfaction apparently, what more do ye want?

We expect the same as you ,should you after 5 years apply for a promotion ,to have our experience and commitment recognised and rewarded. Not a lot to ask. As for expenses been receive . How much do you believe we receive. Speaking for myself it doesn't even cover fuel costs. We don't receive boot allowance , sub , overtime etc that you are entitled to. No reserve commits his or hers time to the reserve for the pitiful amount. As for the generalised comment we are bitter perhaps some are , disappointment for those who have not managed to get through the initial stages sure there is but the reserve will continue to serve despite all of this. If as you have stated you have worked with reserves for 5 years then a lot more respect should be expected should it not.

ShodenMcClane

5 posts in a row. Are you computer illiterate? It's really very annoying with all these notifications.

Raider190

ShodenMcClane wrote: »

5 posts in a row. Are you computer illiterate? It's really very annoying with all these notifications.

The computer police are on my tail.

Disengage your notification settings I have and it reduces the number you receive. Not bad for the computer illiterate

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

The difference been is one has no experience and the other does . Simple as that

What did an garda siochana ever do prior to the reserve? What an insult to serving members and members who have served this country and many who have given their lives and were never in a reserve force. Why are so many reserves resigning or being pushed out the door if they are so good. Should we have a reserve reserve so that they have experience in order to get into the reserve. You get training when you join the force and it's a continous learning experience for the next 30 years! 4 hours a week as a reserve is a drop in the ocean! There's a world of difference between being a reserve and a full time member!

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

What did an garda siochana ever do prior to the reserve? What an insult to serving members and members who have served this country and many who have given their lives and were never in a reserve force. Why are so many reserves resigning or being pushed out the door if they are so good. Should we have a reserve reserve so that they have experience in order to get into the reserve. You get training when you join the force and it's a continous learning experience for the next 30 years! 4 hours a week as a reserve is a drop in the ocean! There's a world of difference between being a reserve and a full time member!

Did I insult anyone ..........don't think so. Calm down a bit and step down off the soapbox. Can you qualify the comment about reserves resigning or been pushed out the door. Don't think you can unless you have access to this confidential information. Some reserves do 4 hours per week and some do in excess of 500 hours per year and a small number do in excess of that. The point been at the recruitment stage we have people with experience and we have those who have not. Which as an employer would you consider to be the best option.

Santa Cruz

Experience will of course be an advantage as long as every other aspect of the candidate is favourable. But who wants someone with experience if they are a bit of a plonker?

tictac__x

It's obvious that reserves do have more experience than others may have when it comes to an garda siochana, they have recieved training etc. However for those who do make it to Templemore eventually in this recruitment drive, everyone will receive the same amount of training and instruction during the 32 weeks training, and we have to remember this is training specific to an garda síochána. I think a big factor in the interview is qualities people can bring the table that do not necessarily relate to the job directly such as being a member of the garda reserve. However to be sure this is an advantage to those who are members, not the be all and end all though. As people have said some personal characteristics of candidates will not be suited to the job

Raider190

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Experience will of course be an advantage as long as every other aspect of the candidate is favourable. But who wants someone with experience if they are a bit of a plonker?

Exactly but is this not the situation in all interviews . Would expect anyone who has reached the interview stage both civilian and Reserve alike to have fully prepared and practised given the amount of time and effort which has been put in. So the plonker element if one exists should be well hidden.

tictac__x wrote: »

It's obvious that reserves do have more experience than others may have when it comes to an garda siochana, they have recieved training etc. However for those who do make it to Templemore eventually in this recruitment drive, everyone will receive the same amount of training and instruction during the 32 weeks training, and we have to remember this is training specific to an garda síochána. I think a big factor in the interview is qualities people can bring the table that do not necessarily relate to the job directly such as being a member of the garda reserve. However to be sure this is an advantage to those who are members, not the be all and end all though. As people have said some personal characteristics of candidates will not be suited to the job

Agree totally ,a number of civilians which bring a substantial amount of experience to the table and the interviewers will do their best to allow the candidate to present their personal attributes , qualifications and prior experience in order to secure a place in the college be they current members of AGS or not. The interview will be about exploiting the advantages you have and communicating effectively why you are the best qualified for the position of Trainee Garda.

hopeful8

Zadie10 wrote: »

You simply must share your tips with us on how you BS'd through the interview in relation to accepting the opinions of others, and keeping calm under provocation ... Cheers

Really? It'd be very hard to ruffle me I assure you, iv previously stated I've worked with some unbelievable reserves and I think if right is right they'll get in I hope they do anyway. I'm starting to believe I might have worked with you raider although I haven't worked with a reserve in a long time. Out of interest raider are you in the first 600?

Raider190

hopeful8 wrote: »

Really? It'd be very hard to ruffle me I assure you, iv previously stated I've worked with some unbelievable reserves and I think if right is right they'll get in I hope they do anyway.

Great to hear that.

I'm starting to believe I might have worked with you raider although I haven't worked with a reserve in a long time. Out of interest raider are you in the first 600?

Happy to say I am

hopeful8

Raider190 wrote: »

Happy to say I am

Best of luck

Raider190

hopeful8 wrote: »

Best of luck

Thanks for that.

KERSPLAT!

MOD

Back on topic please

-KERSPLAT!

Raider190

Perhaps we should have a poll regarding this disgruntled issue.

Larbre34

Its about a 3 year journey from being a Disgruntled Garda Reserve to being a Disgruntled Garda. I have a good number of close family and friends who are serving members of between 7 and 25 years. Some of them are in reasonable health, some of them earn reasonably well out of it, but I can tell you all of them have prematurely aged, some of them are struggling badly financially and every one of them is disgruntled.

To the OP, you are young and clearly bright, go find yourself any other career in the world and consider not making it through the selection process as a lucky escape.

leinsterdude

Sorry to say this but other than life experience the reserves is nothing other than an interest.....been there done that, left as was soooo boring and under valued.

Raider190

leinsterdude wrote: »

Sorry to say this but other than life experience the reserves is nothing other than an interest.....been there done that, left as was soooo boring and under valued.

Enter the disgruntled . Why did you leave after putting so much effort into joining

Raider190

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its about a 3 year journey from being a Disgruntled Garda Reserve to being a Disgruntled Garda. I have a good number of close family and friends who are serving members of between 7 and 25 years. Some of them are in reasonable health, some of them earn reasonably well out of it, but I can tell you all of them have prematurely aged, some of them are struggling badly financially and every one of them is disgruntled.

To the OP, you are young and clearly bright, go find yourself any other career in the world and consider not making it through the selection process as a lucky escape.

There is some truth to that. A number of family members in the job. The more senior ones are doing well but the junior ones do struggle. It is clearly a vocation with regard to a career but the benefits are immense in job satisfaction.

Perhaps we should ask the many posters who are full time members what their opinions are on the subject

mycro89

leinsterdude wrote: »

Sorry to say this but other than life experience the reserves is nothing other than an interest.....been there done that, left as was soooo boring and under valued.

And you do realise that that is what it will be like in the gardai? That that is what the job entails? Are you sure it is for you?

I'm just asking.....

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

Enter the disgruntled . Why did you leave after putting so much effort into joining

In fairness it's not that hard to get into the reserve!

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

In fairness it's not that hard to get into the reserve!

You would know that because you have gotten in or tried to get in ?.....

The last reported figure was that for every 14 applicants who applied only 1 was accepted. That's was two or three years ago.

martingriff

Here is the thing as I see it the recruitment for the Garda is a public recruitment so they have to be the same for everone regarless from the start. Could they have had an internal reccruitment for reservists maybe?

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

You would know that because you have gotten in or tried to get in ?.....

The last reported figure was that for every 14 applicants who applied only 1 was accepted. That's was two or three years ago.

It's not a state secret, just cause someone applies and dosent get in dosent mean its hard to get in! Where did you get you 14 to 1 stats?

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

It's not a state secret, just cause someone applies and dosent get in dosent mean its hard to get in! Where did you get you 14 to 1 stats?

Check this out
BREDA HEFFERNAN – UPDATED 26 NOVEMBER 2012 03:19 AM

ALMOST 3,750 aspiring police officers applied to join the Garda Reserve last year but just 271 -- approximately in every 14 -- made the grade
Indeed, the search for a permanent and pensionable job in a time of rising unemployment has seen around 14 job seekers apply for every public service appointment.

In its annual report for 2007, the Commission for Public Service Appointments, the body responsible for monitoring most appointments to the civil service, An Garda Siochana and the Health Services Executive (HSE), found there were 107,415 applicants for just 7,441 posts.

The civil service received the bulk of the interest, with 71,747 job seekers vying for 3,107 posts, while the HSE saw just under 29,000 applicants competing for 2,679 jobs.

The commission also oversaw internal recruitment for 1,810 jobs.

Some 273 gardai were promoted to the rank of sergeant last year, while 90 rose to the position of inspector. The civil service and HSE together filled 1,447 jobs from among their existing workforce.

Last year also saw a sharp rise in the number of complaints being referred to the commission by disgruntled job applicants. It received 20 formal complaints, up from just five in 2006.

Grievances included claims of discrimination on the grounds of age, while one woman complained she missed out on a job because she was pregnant.

Another worker complained they were unfairly treated because the interview panel had based its decision on a biased and untrue assessment report from their supervisor.

Other gripes ranged from employers changing selection criteria after the closing date for applications, to inappropriate people sitting on interview boards. One complainant claimed that the board used restrictive job requirements that were not necessary for the post.

Of the complaints received, the Commission delivered a decision in 12 of them, while another seven will be finalised this year. It ruled it was not the appropriate forum to decide in the remaining
End


And you have side stepped my question how do you know how many reserves leave or as you put it get shown the door.

If 14 people apply and only 1 is accepted of course that means it's hard to get in and I am assume you have not apply. Why don't you try it and then see if you think it's easy to become a member . Become a doer and not just a talker .

OscarWhiskey

Some very interesting posts on this thread.

I'm a reserve and joined solely on the assumption that it would stand to me when I go for the full-time job. I've placed around 800 in stage 2 so am hoping that my experiences in the reserve will eventually stand to me at interview stage.

I wouldn't say I'm disgruntled at how the reserves have been treated in the recruitment drive,I'd be more inclined to say that I'm disgruntled at the current state of the reserves as a whole, but that's for another forum.

I'd love to see the Garda Reserve given a complete makeover, then we can talk about it being a prerequisite for the fulltime job.

Raider190

OscarWhiskey wrote: »

Some very interesting posts on this thread.

I'm a reserve and joined solely on the assumption that it would stand to me when I go for the full-time job. I've placed around 800 in stage 2 so am hoping that my experiences in the reserve will eventually stand to me at interview stage.

I wouldn't say I'm disgruntled at how the reserves have been treated in the recruitment drive,I'd be more inclined to say that I'm disgruntled at the current state of the reserves as a whole, but that's for another forum.

I'd love to see the Garda Reserve given a complete makeover, then we can talk about it being a prerequisite for the fulltime job.

Excellent idea for a new thread . Perhaps contributions from serving members who have ideas on how this root to branch review could work.

Santa Cruz

OscarWhiskey wrote: »

Some very interesting posts on this thread.

I'm a reserve and joined solely on the assumption that it would stand to me when I go for the full-time job. I've placed around 800 in stage 2 so am hoping that my experiences in the reserve will eventually stand to me at interview stage.

I wouldn't say I'm disgruntled at how the reserves have been treated in the recruitment drive,I'd be more inclined to say that I'm disgruntled at the current state of the reserves as a whole, but that's for another forum.

I'd love to see the Garda Reserve given a complete makeover, then we can talk about it being a prerequisite for the fulltime job.

"A complete makeover" after just a few years in existence. Surely this is an admission that they are not serving much purpose as things stand.

Raider190

Santa Cruz wrote: »

"A complete makeover" after just a few years in existence. Surely this is an admission that they are not serving much purpose as things stand.

Ahhh the nay sayer reappears . Anything to slate the reserve. You have so much to comment on the Garda reserve you should at least know when it came into existence .

All organisations change. The reserve has been operating since 2006 so things need to reviewed. The additional powers soon to be devolved is the first of these changes and there will be more to come. As for serving much purpose well you tell that to the many people we assist along with our full time colleagues.

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

Ahhh the nay sayer reappears . Anything to slate the reserve. You have so much to comment on the Garda reserve you should at least know when it came into existence .

All organisations change. The reserve has been operating since 2006 so things need to reviewed. The additional powers soon to be devolved is the first of these changes and there will be more to come. As for serving much purpose well you tell that to the many people we assist along with our full time colleagues.

There are lots of ordinary people who assist people everyday in lots of ways and sometimes in life saving or life changing ways, you don't have to be in the reserve to do that, you happen to be with a fulltime member who would have sorted the problem out anyway with or without you!

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

There are lots of ordinary people who assist people everyday in lots of ways and sometimes in life saving or life changing ways, you don't have to be in the reserve to do that, you happen to be with a fulltime member who would have sorted the problem out anyway with or without you!

I agree there are lots of other ways and I applauded anyone who volunteers but we are discussing the Garda reserve .
Another example of how little you know. There are duties that a Garda reserve does alone without a full time member. There are situations which arise that many reserves have had to deal with on the street and you have no clue.

Have you spoken to a reserve face to face . Don't think so........Really you should know more about a subject if you are to continually make snide comments about it.

Shady Tady

Raider190 wrote: »

I agree there are lots of other ways and I applauded anyone who volunteers but we are discussing the Garda reserve .
Another example of how little you know. There are duties that a Garda reserve does alone without a full time member. There are situations which arise that many reserves have had to deal with on the street and you have no clue.

Have you spoken to a reserve face to face . Don't think so........Really you should know more about a subject if you are to continually make snide comments about it.

Go on so, tell us your war stories!

Raider190

Shady Tady wrote: »

Go on so, tell us your war stories!

Why would I ever to be inclined to do that. You have no interest apart from taking potshots and making snide comments at a well meaning and committed group of men and women who do their best for this country and it's citizens.
Given your previous posts I don't think one such as yourself will ever understand what motivates us and pushes any member of AGS to do the ex ordinary job we do. We all take an oath when we are attested and part of that oath is to protect people like you and your family. If that is not appreciated well then nothing I post will ever change your opinion. There is nothing more certain than a closed mind.