CID Question

mufflets2

Hi all
I have searched and couldnt find an answer to this one.

I am working in two separate schools, teaching hours that are my own and will always be required (as far as anyone can see)
I have been in this position for a year and a half now.
Both schools seem very happy with my work

Can I ask for, can the schools give me - CID contracts this coming year instead of the usual one year contract renewals?

Thanks in advance for any advice given

Peter Flynt

mufflets2 wrote: »

Hi all
I have searched and couldnt find an answer to this one.

I am working in two separate schools, teaching hours that are my own and will always be required (as far as anyone can see)
I have been in this position for a year and a half now.
Both schools seem very happy with my work

Can I ask for, can the schools give me - CID contracts this coming year instead of the usual one year contract renewals?

Thanks in advance for any advice given

A CID can only be obtained after 3 years of service (used to be four). If a school grants a CID then it must be sanctioned by the DES and I've never heard of anyone getting granted two CIDs from two separate schools.

It seems strange that you would wish to have two separate contracts for two schools as surely your goal cannot involve splitting your energies between two employers.

In theory I suppose it's possible to be granted two separate CIDs.

rainbowtrout

Technically a school can give you a CID the day you start with them but they don't. They are legally obliged to give you a CID after 3 years and schools tend not to give CIDs until they are obliged to. You can ask for one, but you probably won't get one.

There's also no reason why you can't get two CIDs for two different schools. Are the schools two department schools, 2 ETB schools or one of each? If they were 2 ETB schools and were in the same ETB and you started working in both at the same time, you would probably get 1 CID after 3 years with the hours split between both schools.

evolving_doors

The department has allowances for a resource teacher to split their work between schools if necessary. (in the 2007 guidelines on SEN). So its not beyond the bounds of possibility in terms of having 1 cid I spse.

mufflets2

"A CID can only be obtained after 3 years of service "

"Technically a school can give you a CID the day you start"

Thanks folks but
Two opposite answers from two different people leaves me exactly where I was in the beginning
Unless someone knows for certain?


"Are the schools two department schools, 2 ETB schools or one of each"

I do not know what an ETB school is, but They are both special needs schools and I get paid by one payment from Dept, putting both hours together.

I am reasonably certain that both principals would give me a cid contract if they could , but I do not want to be asking for something that is not possible and look stupid.

all advice welcome

spurious

mufflets2 wrote: »

I do not know what an ETB school is,

ETB is what they now call VECs.

rainbowtrout

mufflets2 wrote: »

"A CID can only be obtained after 3 years of service "

"Technically a school can give you a CID the day you start"

Thanks folks but
Two opposite answers from two different people leaves me exactly where I was in the beginning
Unless someone knows for certain?


"Are the schools two department schools, 2 ETB schools or one of each"

I do not know what an ETB school is, but They are both special needs schools and I get paid by one payment from Dept, putting both hours together.

I am reasonably certain that both principals would give me a cid contract if they could , but I do not want to be asking for something that is not possible and look stupid.

all advice welcome

You can be offered a CID at any point but schools don't give them out unless they have to.

Put this as another scenario. CIDs have replaced permanent contracts in schools. Would you in any other workplace go to your employer if they had you on rolling 1 year contracts, go and ask for a permanent contract or would you wait to be offered one, if they were legally obliged to give you one anyway after 3 years, because that is basically what you are proposing.

ETB is the new name for VECs. I assume you would know if you were working for one.

A principal is not going to give you a CID because you ask for one.


Why are you reasonably certain that a principal would give you a CID if they could? If they could wouldn't they have done it already?

solerina

mufflets2 wrote: »

"A CID can only be obtained after 3 years of service "

"Technically a school can give you a CID the day you start"

Thanks folks but
Two opposite answers from two different people leaves me exactly where I was in the beginning
Unless someone knows for certain?


"Are the schools two department schools, 2 ETB schools or one of each"

I do not know what an ETB school is, but They are both special needs schools and I get paid by one payment from Dept, putting both hours together.

I am reasonably certain that both principals would give me a cid contract if they could , but I do not want to be asking for something that is not possible and look stupid.

all advice welcome

No, you wont be getting a CID right now and I would advise you not to ask for one...they are only given out after 3 years working on your own hours....(as the poster above said, schools can give you one immediately on day 1 or year 1 but they wont) so if you are still in either/both schools after 3 years you will be given a CID for either/both. If you are 'reasonably certain' that both principals would give you a CID then whats the rush, you will get one when you are legally entitled to one

mufflets2

Ok Thanks , so they can if they want

I am reasonably certain because both jobs involve two full days work only and both schools had been through numerous people who were unwilling or unable to do either job for any length before I arrived .
and both principals talk to me about future plans in the school and one is paying a lot of money from school funds for me to do a course specific to the school needs.

It is my first year in one school and I had less hours for half the year in the other last year.

also it would be nice to have a bit of job security in writing eh?

Many thanks

seavill

Lovely to have the security but personally wouldn't ask. If you are that safe one more year playing the game won't make any difference

rainbowtrout

True, but there are schools that are over quota and one of your schools could find itself having a permanent teacher redeployed into your position, or a drop in numbers attending the school could mean a permanent teacher in your school would take your hours.

Now while this may not happen, a principal is not going to take the risk of giving you a CID when they don't need to. It's sounding positive that they are making plans for the future with you in mind, just don't go asking for the CID when it won't be awarded until it has to be.

mufflets2

Can CID contracts not be leveraged to suit the teacher instead of the principal.

humour me a second please

If one felt that the principals were very pleased with your work and afraid that you might be considering leaving in search of a regular full-time position in a single school (i am not I am enjoying what I am doing)- leaving them going through people who stay short term or struggle with the roll.

then would it not be a good move to ask for a CID contract sooner rather than later.

seavill

Would the one that paid for your course not be extremely pissed off that you were thinking of leaving after them doing that, or even worse be even more pissed off if they found out you were only doing it to try get a CID

mufflets2

I never said that I was thinking of leaving or implying it to the principal
I never said that I was "only doing it to" to get a cid . I said that I enjoy what I am doing

can you not see what I am saying about the use of CID contracts by a teacher?

rainbowtrout

mufflets2 wrote: »

Can CID contracts not be leveraged to suit the teacher instead of the principal.

humour me a second please

If one felt that the principals were very pleased with your work and afraid that you might be considering leaving in search of a regular full-time position in a single school (i am not I am enjoying what I am doing)- leaving them going through people who stay short term or struggle with the roll.

then would it not be a good move to ask for a CID contract sooner rather than later.

In a nutshell no. You're asking the same question over and over again hoping to get a different answer. Experienced teachers are giving you the same answer.

Teachers are ten a penny at the moment. You may consider yourself indispensable but if you threaten to up and leave, they will find a replacement. You are not the only person who could do that job, there are plenty of other people out there who are equally capable and would jump at the chance of contracted work without hassling their principal for a CID before 3 years are up.

Also the notion that you would be leaving to search for a single full time position wouldn't cost a principal a second thought. Those kind of jobs don't exist. If they did, you would be in one instead of working in two part time positions.

rainbowtrout

mufflets2 wrote: »

I never said that I was thinking of leaving or implying it to the principal
I never said that I was "only doing it to" to get a cid

can you not see what I am saying about the use of CID contracts by a teacher?

You have zero leverage. The balance of power lies with the principal. You can't bargain with a contract that you don't have. In fact if you were to try and bargain over the CID they may see you as more hassle than it's worth and find a way of dispensing with your services at the end of the year. It happens.

seavill

mufflets2 wrote: »

I never said that I was thinking of leaving or implying it to the principal
I never said that I was "only doing it to" to get a cid

can you not see what I am saying about the use of CID contracts by a teacher?

I know you never said you were thinking of leaving I got from your last post you were asking could you basically not use your current position to your advantage and try to use that to get the principals to give you the CID early but making it look like if they didn't give you one early you might find something better

Is that what you were asking or did i pick it up completely wrong?

mufflets2

rainbowtrout "but if you threaten to up and leave,"

Just forget about it.

CIDs can only be leveraged by principals , to suggest otherwise is just allien.

what makes you think I am not an experienced teacher?

anyway thanks everyone for the Information.

mufflets2

seavill wrote: »

I know you never said you were thinking of leaving I got from your last post you were asking could you basically not use your current position to your advantage and try to use that to get the principals to give you the CID early but making it look like if they didn't give you one early you might find something better

Is that what you were asking or did i pick it up completely wrong?

You kind of have it
leaving the bargaining , leveraging and threatening out of it
If everyone is pleased with your work should you not ask for a CID instead of a regular contract next year if you felt that the principals would give you one?

seavill

Again personally I wouldn't but that's me I'm not one for rocking the boat.

If you feel you deserve it and they are reasonable people go for it but probably what most of us are saying here is if you feel you are safe why bother to rock the boat when you will get it nearly this time next year.

Up to you but at least you know the answers to your questions now

evolving_doors

Given that the OP is working in a special school (unless I've misread) I think that the skillset they may have is a bit more niche than in a regular school. Also, considering that training/further study is being encouraged then it would appear that the OP is being considered as a valuable asset to some extent.
From my perspective it should not go against the op to ask for some type of certainty, conversely to some if the advice here (i.e. wait for your 3 years then ask). asking a principal might make the OP look like a motivated teacher who wants to get on in their career in that particular school. Also being split between two schools 'might' strengthen their hand, i.e. if I don't get him the other school will. Im coming from the special needs skill set angle moreso than say a ' regular subject teacher' of which are more in supply.
If it is a special school(s) that you are in OP id say get yourself into every short course run by the SESS/NCSE just to heighten your knowledge too.
By all means ask about CIDs, why stop there though? Show them you mean businesses and ask about permanacy. You never know when or how many teachers may be thinking of leaving, consider if a job did come up and the choice came down between someone who kept their head down and someone who was actively seeking to promote themselves in a school...who would you pick?

Id say go for it op, show your intent. But the real skill is in the asking... It might be an outright no but I have a feeling that it will stand to you in the long run.

mufflets2

Armelodie wrote: »

Given that the OP is working in a special school (unless I've misread) I think that the skillset they may have is a bit more niche than in a regular school. Also, considering that training/further study is being encouraged then it would appear that the OP is being considered as a valuable asset to some extent.
From my perspective it should not go against the op to ask for some type of certainty, conversely to some if the advice here (i.e. wait for your 3 years then ask). asking a principal might make the OP look like a motivated teacher who wants to get on in their career in that particular school. Also being split between two schools 'might' strengthen their hand, i.e. if I don't get him the other school will. Im coming from the special needs skill set angle moreso than say a ' regular subject teacher' of which are more in supply.
If it is a special school(s) that you are in OP id say get yourself into every short course run by the SESS/NCSE just to heighten your knowledge too.
By all means ask about CIDs, why stop there though? Show them you mean businesses and ask about permanacy. You never know when or how many teachers may be thinking of leaving, consider if a job did come up and the choice came down between someone who kept their head down and someone who was actively seeking to promote themselves in a school...who would you pick?

Id say go for it op, show your intent. But the real skill is in the asking... It might be an outright no but I have a feeling that it will stand to you in the long run.

I think that you are right,
Nothing lost in the asking.

Many thanks to all.

TheDriver

beware however of redeployment panels especially if its an ETB school as its ultimately the ETB which decides the CIDs and not always the principal. Also remember that even though its a special school with a specific skill set, any teacher could be redeployed into it. Are there other teachers in the same timescale as you who also would be entitled to CIDs in a year or two?

If anyone came into me looking for a CID before time, I would be very cautious.

solerina

mufflets2 wrote: »

I think that you are right,
Nothing lost in the asking.

Many thanks to all.

You agree with the one poster who said what you wanted to hear...despite the fact that many of us have told you not to ask for a CID....I have never heard of anyone asking for a CID...when someone becomes elligible they get one, thats it !!!
Moral of the store: if you keep asking the same question over and over someone will eventually tell you what you want to hear :rolleyes:

mufflets2

To solerina , the reason that I persisted is that many such as yourself did not appear to understand what I was asking or seem capable of entertaining the possibility that a teacher could really be in a position to have some controll over the timing of the allocation of a CID contract , some jumped to conclusions about threats and bargaining and some threw in irrelevance
"I have never heard of someone asking for a CID"

Instead of listening.
I presumed that if I could get people to understand that this May not be a fairly common situation I would get considered responses ,and then I listened more to those who appeared to understand such as Armelode instead of those going on about what they already know.

The moral May instead be that
Listening is an important skill in teaching as well as in life

mufflets2

TheDriver wrote: »

beware however of redeployment panels especially if its an ETB school as its ultimately the ETB which decides the CIDs and not always the principal. Also remember that even though its a special school with a specific skill set, any teacher could be redeployed into it. Are there other teachers in the same timescale as you who also would be entitled to CIDs in a year or two?

If anyone came into me looking for a CID before time, I would be very cautious.

Worth considering
Many thanks

mufflets2

seavill wrote: »

Again personally I wouldn't but that's me I'm not one for rocking the boat.

If you feel you deserve it and they are reasonable people go for it but probably what most of us are saying here is if you feel you are safe why bother to rock the boat when you will get it nearly this time next year.

Up to you but at least you know the answers to your questions now

I take your point ,
I don't think that there is any harm in rocking the boat a bit,
Thanks.

evolving_doors

I'm not one to be rocking the boat myself...but in saying all that, I have a sense that if you don't ask you don't get.. Also from the op's perspective the dynamic of employment in special education environment is a little bit different....

To make a grand sweeping statement, I think with the cutbacks in education (snas edpsychs seno's ) and heightened pressure on teachers I think the push for inclusive education has been forgotten about. The aim was to push a lot of students out of special centres into mainstream along with their peers, but really for a lot of students its more integration than proper inclusion. Personally I know of seno's who have stated that if a particular student's needs are so great then really they shouldn't be looking for an SNA but instead should be sent to a special school.

I'd take a punt that the special education sector... Namely special schools... will see a resurgance in demand once parents realise that 'certain students' can learn to live independent lives with proper programs in place, more so than going through the academic route and coming out after 6 years no better off whilest most of their peers head to college.

Getting back to the op's original point... Who knows, maybe the op might find out that he's wasting his time in those schools going by what he garners from the 'chat' he's engaging in.

Be sure to let us know op....

rainbowtrout

mufflets2 wrote: »

Can CID contracts not be leveraged to suit the teacher instead of the principal.

humour me a second please

If one felt that the principals were very pleased with your work and afraid that you might be considering leaving in search of a regular full-time position in a single school (i am not I am enjoying what I am doing)- leaving them going through people who stay short term or struggle with the roll.

then would it not be a good move to ask for a CID contract sooner rather than later.

Now why would they be afraid of you leaving, unless you had hinted at it in conversation??? Principals are only too aware of what the jobs market is like for teachers at the moment.

This is where people like myself got the idea of you bargaining for your CID - it was based on what you wrote.

mufflets2 wrote: »

To solerina , the reason that I persisted is that many such as yourself did not appear to understand what I was asking or seem capable of entertaining the possibility that a teacher could really be in a position to have some controll over the timing of the allocation of a CID contract , some jumped to conclusions about threats and bargaining and some threw in irrelevance
"I have never heard of someone asking for a CID"

Instead of listening.
I presumed that if I could get people to understand that this May not be a fairly common situation I would get considered responses ,and then I listened more to those who appeared to understand such as Armelode instead of those going on about what they already know.

The moral May instead be that
Listening is an important skill in teaching as well as in life

Plenty are listening, and the replies are coming from teachers with experience. As solerina said, you kept asking the same question until you got the answer you wanted. There are loads of teaching jobs that have an uncommon set of subjects, it still doesn't mean the principal of the school will bend over backwards to keep you. I have an unusual combination of subjects, but I know that if I upped sticks and left that at worst my job would be split in two and one of the more unusual subjects I teach (computer programming) would be dropped, simple as that.

Snip: Please do not comment on posters "tone". If you have an issue use the report button.

mufflets2

rainbowtrout

"Now why would they be afraid of you leaving, unless you had hinted at it in conversation??? Principals are only too aware of what the jobs market is like for teachers at the moment.

This is where people like myself got the idea of you bargaining for your CID - it was based on what you wrote."

I have explained why they might be afraid of my leaving already.

"it still doesn't mean the principal of the school will bend over backwards to keep you."
No idea where you are getting this.

SNIP: Do not comment on posters "tone". If you have an issue please use the report button.

some seem quiet upset that I am not taking their advice automatically
I am not sure if it is because they feel that they have some higher authority with over 1000 mesages posted or that I am not appreciating their efforts.
please be assured it is not the latter.

Armelodie

"Getting back to the op's original point... Who knows, maybe the op might find out that he's wasting his time in those schools going by what he garners from the 'chat' he's engaging in.

Be sure to let us know op...."

I will pass back to the forum any Information that might be helpfull
and let you know how I get on.

Cheers

Godge

mufflets2 wrote: »

I think that you are right,
Nothing lost in the asking.

Many thanks to all.

No point in asking if you have leverage.

The only worthwhile leverage would be another job offer which was more secure. At the moment, with hundreds of teachers out there in unsecure positions, you could probably be replaced.