CID Question

evolving_doors

Godge wrote: »

No point in asking if you have leverage.

The only worthwhile leverage would be another job offer which was more secure. At the moment, with hundreds of teachers out there in unsecure positions, you could probably be replaced.

I'm not so sure about all the mention of hundreds of teachers up along this thread. Do hundreds of teachers have qualifications in say sign language!

I'm not suggesting that the op has definitely something 'regular teachers ' don't have (maybe he could set us straight !). I'm merely saying that the special education sector is a different animal to the regular positions that might arise. Also remember that the op already has a little leverage in that he has his feet in 2 schools with one school willing to fund his further education.

Maybe I'm totally off the wall on this so ...without reveling too much op... Are you just a regular Joe with the 'hdip' or do you have a USP that would enhance your bargenning power...

Yonks ago in another school every teacher was pencilled in for a 'chat' with the principal towards the end of the year. For every teacher the discussion of a career path and further education took place, I think it was a good idea as it gave both sides a better understanding of where they were at. Perhaps op consider your approach like this' more so than 'demanding a cid' . Ask for an informal chat before the year is out.. a lot of other employees do appraisels with their bosses so think it nothing out of the ordinary. Both sides can comne away from it with in a better position!

mufflets2

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm not so sure about all the mention of hundreds of teachers up along this thread. Do hundreds of teachers have qualifications in say sign language!

I'm not suggesting that the op has definitely something 'regular teachers ' don't have (maybe he could set us straight !). I'm merely saying that the special education sector is a different animal to the regular positions that might arise. Also remember that the op already has a little leverage in that he has his feet in 2 schools with one school willing to fund his further education.

Maybe I'm totally off the wall on this so ...without reveling too much op... Are you just a regular Joe with the 'hdip' or do you have a USP that would enhance your bargenning power...

Yonks ago in another school every teacher was pencilled in for a 'chat' with the principal towards the end of the year. For every teacher the discussion of a career path and further education took place, I think it was a good idea as it gave both sides a better understanding of where they were at. Perhaps op consider your approach like this' more so than 'demanding a cid' . Ask for an informal chat before the year is out.. a lot of other employees do appraisels with their bosses so think it nothing out of the ordinary. Both sides can comne away from it with in a better position!

I am an ordinary joe p.e. And science teacher teaching only pe in these special needs schools , i have however a lot of experience teaching pe to students with special needs (which is a whole different ball game, forgive the pun)
There will be no more than 10/12 hours work as a pe teacher in each of these schools but I am enjoying it and would like to stay,
As I said the school principals are very keen for me to stay, for reasons outlined previously.
And so I was thinking of asking them to make the next contracts CID

evolving_doors

mufflets2 wrote: »

I am an ordinary joe p.e. And science teacher teaching only pe in these special needs schools , i have however a lot of experience teaching pe to students with special needs (which is a whole different ball game, forgive the pun)
There will be no more than 10/12 hours work as a pe teacher in each of these schools but I am enjoying it and would like to stay,
As I said the school principals are very keen for me to stay, for reasons outlined previously.
And so I was thinking of asking them to make the next contracts CID

I wouldn't harp on about the CID so much to them... Maybe talk in terms of 'your future in their school' .. Also if you reveal your hand too early about a cid you might only be reminding them to drop your hours on year 2 (if your not in year 2 already)...

mufflets2

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm not one to be rocking the boat myself...but in saying all that, I have a sense that if you don't ask you don't get.. Also from the op's perspective the dynamic of employment in special education environment is a little bit different....

To make a grand sweeping statement, I think with the cutbacks in education (snas edpsychs seno's ) and heightened pressure on teachers I think the push for inclusive education has been forgotten about. The aim was to push a lot of students out of special centres into mainstream along with their peers, but really for a lot of students its more integration than proper inclusion. Personally I know of seno's who have stated that if a particular student's needs are so great then really they shouldn't be looking for an SNA but instead should be sent to a special school.

I'd take a punt that the special education sector... Namely special schools... will see a resurgance in demand once parents realise that 'certain students' can learn to live independent lives with proper programs in place, more so than going through the academic route and coming out after 6 years no better off whilest most of their peers head to college.

Getting back to the op's original point... Who knows, maybe the op might find out that he's wasting his time in those schools going by what he garners from the 'chat' he's engaging in.

Be sure to let us know op....

Armelodie wrote: »

I wouldn't harp on about the CID so much to them... Maybe talk in terms of 'your future in their school' .. Also if you reveal your hand too early about a cid you might only be reminding them to drop your hours on year 2 (if your not in year 2 already)...

Ok thanks
I think that it only feels like I have been harping on about it because this post has gone on so long,
there is no one in either school able to do my hours at the moment and so its all or nothing.
It is impossible for someone else to judge the dynamics of my situation. all I really wanted to know is whether a cid were possible.

I take your point on the dangers of appearing pushy
Thanks again

TheDriver

Be careful of a major fact- pe teachers are very plentiful out there at moment and extremely easy to replace.....

mufflets2

TheDriver wrote: »

Be careful of a major fact- pe teachers are very plentiful out there at moment and extremely easy to replace.....

ok cheers

whiteandlight

I'm afraid that if you are just a standard teacher that you really do not have a bargaining position here in relation to a CID. You should be approaching your principals about next year but I'm afraid requesting a CID when there are tons of PE teachers out of work and they can replace you may set off alarm bells in your principal.

Go and speak to them about your hours for next year and emphasise that you want to stay in the school/area but I wouldn't be mentioning a CID tbh, they can still let you go!

Peter Flynt

solerina wrote: »

No, you wont be getting a CID right now and I would advise you not to ask for one...they are only given out after 3 years working on your own hours....(as the poster above said, schools can give you one immediately on day 1 or year 1 but they wont) so if you are still in either/both schools after 3 years you will be given a CID for either/both. If you are 'reasonably certain' that both principals would give you a CID then whats the rush, you will get one when you are legally entitled to one

Not strictly true that. You can be on someone elses hours for the first 2 years but you have to be on your own hours in the third year.

Peter Flynt

mufflets2 wrote: »

Can CID contracts not be leveraged to suit the teacher instead of the principal.

humour me a second please

If one felt that the principals were very pleased with your work and afraid that you might be considering leaving in search of a regular full-time position in a single school (i am not I am enjoying what I am doing)- leaving them going through people who stay short term or struggle with the roll.

then would it not be a good move to ask for a CID contract sooner rather than later.

Principals don't offer CIDs. Boards of Management do. So approaching a Principal and asking them for a CID before you're legally due one is sort of pointless . . as they are not in a position to give you a CID.

I also strongly doubt that the DES would sanction a CID before the 3 years is completed.

The Red Shoes

Just curious where the information that a CID can be given before three years have been completed is from? Is there a circular or official document that states that? All I have been able to find is that a CID is only given once three years have been completed. I've never heard of someone getting it earlier or that it was even possible. Genuinely interested to know the answer as this information would be of benefit to a colleague of mine.

OP no harm in speaking to your principals about it. You know the individual personalities involved which is really what it comes down to. In my school some hours are dept paid, some school paid. If you say nothing then you get the school paid hours while the principal will give the dept hours to those who express a desire for them/ dissatisfaction with school paid hours. That's down to his own personality, another principal might resent you asking. You're the best judge of how they'll respond in your case.

mufflets2

The Red Shoes wrote: »

Just curious where the information that a CID can be given before three years have been completed is from? Is there a circular or official document that states that? All I have been able to find is that a CID is only given once three years have been completed. I've never heard of someone getting it earlier or that it was even possible. Genuinely interested to know the answer as this information would be of benefit to a colleague of mine.

OP no harm in speaking to your principals about it. You know the individual personalities involved which is really what it comes down to. In my school some hours are dept paid, some school paid. If you say nothing then you get the school paid hours while the principal will give the dept hours to those who express a desire for them/ dissatisfaction with school paid hours. That's down to his own personality, another principal might resent you asking. You're the best judge of how they'll respond in your case.

I think that you have it in one
Only the person in the situation can understand the dynamics of that particular situation.
I just wanted to know if an aerly cid were possible
which I think it is.

Peter Flynt

mufflets2 wrote: »

I think that you have it in one
Only the person in the situation can understand the dynamics of that particular situation.
I just wanted to know if an aerly cid were possible
which I think it is.

I don't think the DES are going to sanction your CID.

rainbowtrout

The Red Shoes wrote: »

Just curious where the information that a CID can be given before three years have been completed is from? Is there a circular or official document that states that? All I have been able to find is that a CID is only given once three years have been completed. I've never heard of someone getting it earlier or that it was even possible. Genuinely interested to know the answer as this information would be of benefit to a colleague of mine.

OP no harm in speaking to your principals about it. You know the individual personalities involved which is really what it comes down to. In my school some hours are dept paid, some school paid. If you say nothing then you get the school paid hours while the principal will give the dept hours to those who express a desire for them/ dissatisfaction with school paid hours. That's down to his own personality, another principal might resent you asking. You're the best judge of how they'll respond in your case.

The idea behind CIDs was to protect employees from being put on temporary contracts on an indefinite basis or being let go from a job for no reason, or because the manager wanted to give someone else a job even though the current employee was doing their job up to the standard required. It doesn't just pertain to teaching, it's across all forms of employment.

Legally teachers are entitled to a CID after 3 years but like any other worker could be given one beforehand, only the Dept of Ed/ETBs now don't give out CIDs until they have to. In the past teachers could be made permanent on their first day in the job (like me) or could be waiting many years to be made permanent (16 years for some of my colleagues) or never be made permanent, or worse be in a job for years and be let go after a long period of time.

The CID was supposed to alleviate this problem, but what it has done in teaching is create a situation where teachers don't get them until they are legally entitled to them, and often they don't get them for full hours.

I have heard of CIDs being awarded for less than 4 years service (as was the requriement pre Haddington Road), but they were rare enough and pre-recession too by and large. There are old threads on this forum where they would have been discussed.

mufflets2

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I don't think the DES are going to sanction your CID.

I hav'nt decided whether to ask for one yet but why would you expect that to be the case?

Peter Flynt

mufflets2 wrote: »

I hav'nt decided whether to ask for one yet but why would you expect that to be the case?

Because the DES don't sanction CIDs without all aspects having being completed.

I've known teachers having completed 3/4 years and have had to start jumping through hoops as setup by the DES with appeals etc. . .much more commonplace.

I don't think you should ask for a CID. Your Principal has a lot of other issues on their mind.

You should remain focussed on retaining your job and not giving the Principal a reason to give your job to someone else.

mufflets2

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Because the DES don't sanction CIDs without all aspects having being completed.

I've known teachers having completed 3/4 years and have had to start jumping through hoops as setup by the DES with appeals etc. . .much more commonplace..

I would be grateful if you could elaborate on this
what type of hoops or "aspects" ect could need to be overcome?

Peter Flynt

mufflets2 wrote: »

I would be grateful if you could elaborate on this
what type of hoops or "aspects" ect could need to be overcome?

If a request from a Principal for a CID went in (before the 3 years are up) I'd be pretty certain that the DES would refuse to sanction it on the basis that the candidate has not reached the 3 years.

Many teachers have had problems getting their CIDs. . . not necessarily from management. Management may apply for a CID on behalf of a teacher. The DES will want to see the justification for the CID and can refuse to sanction it.

mufflets2

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a request from a Principal for a CID went in (before the 3 years are up) I'd be pretty certain that the DES would refuse to sanction it on the basis that the candidate has not reached the 3 years.

Many teachers have had problems getting their CIDs. . . not necessarily from management. Management may apply for a CID on behalf of a teacher. The DES will want to see the justification for the CID and can refuse to sanction it.

ok thanks

Caiseoipe19

Apologies, slightly off topic but it doesn't really warrant a new thread...

When is it that a principal offers a contract renewal to a non-CID teacher for the next year?

Peter Flynt

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Apologies, slightly off topic but it doesn't really warrant a new thread...

When is it that a principal offers a contract renewal to a non-CID teacher for the next year?

Depends some may offer in April, May or June or as late as August even.

I always feel sorry for non-CID teachers at this time of year.

It really pisses me off how some management leave teachers into July almost before telling them of their fate.

Caiseoipe19

Ah right, thanks.

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Depends some may offer in April, May or June or as late as August even.

I always feel sorry for non-CID teachers at this time of year.

It really pisses me off how some management leave teachers into July almost before telling them of their fate.

because sometimes allocations don't come to schools til this late or redeployment into the school. We can tell people they probably will be there next year but until we have it in writing, we can't give it in writing. Worse to give people a probably scenario which has a chance of no job.......

Kalimera

The DES will not permit any appointments until the Director of Redeployment indicates that the school may proceed with appointments as nobody is being redeployed to that school. This has been in early June over the last three years.

AvHalo34

How long do I have to be employed by an ETB on a contract before they have to provide me with a CID?

evolving_doors

AvHalo34 wrote: »

How long do I have to be employed by an ETB on a contract before they have to provide me with a CID?

Depends on the nature of your contract!
But when your 2 years have passed they have to offer a CID for the same job in the 3rd year. But they can advertise for it too!