Shock absorber linkage seized, help! Pic included...

rat_race

Looking for some advice, lads!

This is a follow on from my other thread where I asked about a way to lift the bike, to figure out my suspension problem: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057166541

My back suspension was not budging, up or down. Today I investigated...

Sooo, I managed to get the rear shock off, and it seems ok -- though I do not have the strength to test whether it bounces, but I can only guess it does.

I think my problem is that the bolts/parts in the linkages are fooked and have seized. I don't know why, the bike is not that old (2010) and it was working fine a few weeks ago...

In the pic, I managed to get the bolt with a green arrow out. That's hooked up to the shock, so I could take the shock off. The two red ones, I just couldn't. I tried with huge leverage, tried lots of things. So I couldn't remove this part from the bike.

That bolt 1, that goes through the top bore -- is what's connected to the frame. I get the feeling that it should be able to swivel up and down freely on the frame (when not connected to anything else that is), but it will not budge at all. Same with bolt number 7...attached to the lever arm. I managed to get the right lever arm off because I could undo the nut. But the left, no way...it's going nowhere. Would I be right in saying that, all the bushings inside these bores should turn freely/easily??? Or is it the bolt that should turn, or what? Bit confused.

See bolt 7 near the bottom, that's what attached it to the swing arm. When I removed that I could test the swing arm and it performed fine -- up and down.

It's fairly mucky and dirty and not as easy as it looks to get at these parts. Firstly, I just don't know how to proceed to get these bolts off...Any advice? Heat isn't really an option because there's o-rings and stuff there. I know I could replace though...

Any advice/tips/help greatly appreciated!

rat_race

Another pic to demonstrate the problem. Sorry for not being a close up, I didn't intend to post it...

blade1

An air gun on bolt head and on the other side if you can pick up a round bar somewhere.
Hit the bar with a hammer while turning the bolt with the air gun.
This normally will get a seized bolt out.
Obviously take care not to damage anything or knock the bike over.

corkgsxr

Penatrating oil. And leave it a few hours with regular reapplys.

or a copper 3 pound hammer.

two wheels good

corkgsxr wrote: »

Penatrating oil. And leave it a few hours with regular reapplys.

or a copper 3 pound hammer.

Yeah, penetrating oil , not that WD40 rubbish - and some patience.

Before "applying" the hammer replace the nut so the nut is flush with end of the bolt. This will protect threads if you don't have a bar or a centre punch.

Over-tightening (slightly/carefully!) the bolt might help break the bond.

Put down a sheet of plastic or some newspaper to stop the staining on paving. You'll be glad later.

Putting a strap between side stand and front wheel will give some extra security/stability .

corkgsxr

two wheels good wrote: »

Yeah, penetrating oil , not that WD40 rubbish - and some patience.

Before "applying" the hammer replace the nut so the nut is flush with end of the bolt. This will protect threads if you don't have a bar or a centre punch.

Over-tightening (slightly/carefully!) the bolt might help break the bond.

Put down a sheet of plastic or some newspaper to stop the staining on paving. You'll be glad later.

Putting a strap between side stand and front wheel will give some extra security/stability .

A copper hammer wont damage the bolts.

and I almost never use wd40. Its probably the most misused product around

rat_race

Thanks guys, I was using degreaser to clean the ends up, for a better view...and admittedly WD40, as it was the closest thing I had for the job. Will get some penetrating oil when the shops open.

FYI, what's really bizarre is that I don't even think the bolts are threaded to anything! I have the nuts off them all (number 6 in the diagram, they're still on the bolt in my bike pic, but they're loose)...I just can't get the bolts out of the bore...

I'll try again. Thanks.

By the way, is this common for linkages? Although a mechanically simple job, it's pretty time consuming. I wouldn't like to be paying for it...

blade1

If those bolts with the sleeves on them aren't moving the way they should, they can get scored over time.
Then what can happen is , where they are scored can get caught on the spacers(no.4 & no.11 in your pic) when u try to remove the bolts.
I gave 2 days belting with a sledge on an old bike I had and then I admitted defeat.
That's where the air gun came in and got them out.

I'm not saying your situation is the same but just a possibility!

CJhaughey

This is pretty common with linkages, the cause is a lack of grease during assembly.
Its fairly likely that you may end up cutting the bolts off to get them out.
Not that big a deal just awkward and time consuming.
If it was me, I would knock the swingarm pivot bolt out and take the whole lot to a vice where you can hammer and punch away in the correct axis which is up and down.
The swingarm pivot bolt is also likely to get seized in place which is a bigger PITA so take the opportunity to grease all the bolts bushes and linkages while they are out.
Once you have the whole thing apart a 4.5" grinder with a stainless steel disc will make short work of the bolts and you can support the linkage with a bit of pipe while you drive the bolts out.

galwaytt

I admire your enthusiasm, doing it outside on the paving !!

This is all-too-common, as pointed out by others.

For now I'd strip as advised, but schedule to redo it again in 12 months. You could steal a march on the next job by planning to have grease nipples fitted to them the next time you have them out. Would take a small bit of thinking, but not much, and make like soooo much easier in the future.

Wtf they're not fitted as standard escapes me.

rat_race

galwaytt wrote: »

I admire your enthusiasm, doing it outside on the paving !!

This is all-too-common, as pointed out by others.

For now I'd strip as advised, but schedule to redo it again in 12 months. You could steal a march on the next job by planning to have grease nipples fitted to them the next time you have them out. Would take a small bit of thinking, but not much, and make like soooo much easier in the future.

Wtf they're not fitted as standard escapes me.

Thanks. Yep, it's another thing to think (worry!) about. Grease nipples, good idea -- didn't know they existed.

Have a Tiger 800 too and sort of neglected the Ninja in terms of cleaning over the last year. Although, I never really cleaned that area properly anyway...

Gonna get some penetrating oil, and hopefully make some progress without causing damage. Best case scenario is that the bushings won't have to be taken out, and the exterior ends just needs a good cleaning, and the bolts need to be cleaned and greased. Worst case is gotta replace the bushings, etc., etc., and I dunno how to do that properly (might be easy)...

two wheels good

galwaytt wrote: »

For now I'd strip as advised, but schedule to redo it again in 12 months. You could steal a march on the next job by planning to have grease nipples fitted to them the next time you have them out. Would take a small bit of thinking, but not much, and make like soooo much easier in the future.

Wtf they're not fitted as standard escapes me.

Good idea!

CJhaughey

galwaytt wrote: »

Wtf they're not fitted as standard escapes me.

Most stuff is built down to a price not up to a standard.
My '88 Honda NX650 has them, newer ones didn't get them.

Cuddlesworth

Where are you based and what size are the bolt heads?

rat_race

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Where are you based and what size are the bolt heads?

Well, the bike is in Wicklow Town, at the folks! I live in Dublin usually, but am back there a good bit though.

Can't remember the size of the bolts, 14-16mm I think...They're not big. I don't even think they're threaded to anything (have the nuts off!)...

rat_race

To add insult in injury, the mother called me this morning to say the bike has blown over during the night. I had it on a paddock stand on the swingarm, and an covered with a Stormex cover. Stupid of me really...really wish I'd put the back wheel back on and left it on the side stand.

Ugh. Lesson learned.

It's still on its side and probably will be for another day or two until I get back. No idea of damage yet. But with most of the fairings and the muffler off, I can rule them out at least. Damn you, seized linkage!!!

Hotblack Desiato

The cover caught the wind and dragged it over it probably would have been ok without the cover.

You should replace all bearings, bushings, and seals you expose on an awkward job like this. You don't want to be doing it again because you cheaped out and put worn parts back together. Lesson I learned the hard way

rat_race

Guys...took the swing arm off for better access. Long story short is I have the linkage moving in the frame, but swivelling on the bolt without a nut, not the bearings -- so it's still totally stuck to the bearings. So I cannot remove the bolt from the linkage still, and hence can't remove the linkage from the frame to try service it. I've tried lots penetrating oil, and huge leverage. I can move the bolt tiny bits, with huuuuuge pressure when I wedge the linkage to the frame and turn it. It is not getting any easier or looser. Am starting to strip the bolt, too. Unbelievable how strong the head is though.

Have a heat gun thingy here. Didn't want to use it because of all the oil and lubricant in this area, and its proximity to the tank and tank breather tubes. What ya reckon?

Failing that, I'm thinking "feck it", get a drill and drill it out. But that really feels like cheating to me...feel like I should be able to do this...

Btw, the fall: broken clutch lever and bit of fairing at the back ... Should have just brought this to a mech? Nahhhhh, this is more fun.

Cuddlesworth

You need an impact wrench. Air, electric whatever.

rat_race

You sure? Admittedly, I haven't used one before...but, if you saw the leverage I was giving this thing, I dunno if an impact gun would be up for the job?

rat_race

Update: I end up grinding the whole linkage off. There was simply no other option, no amount of strength or leverage would budge this without bending the frame (which I actually did a tiny bit). It was a nightmare, very awkward to get at, very close to some wires, breather pipes, and the bike frame.

In the process of this ordeal, I dropped the bike once, breaking the clutch lever and rear fender (actually, the wind blew it over while unattended).

Overall, I removed the rear wheel, calipers, swing arm, shock, all fairing, muffler, header pipes -- finding some other problems: broken exhaust/header band clamp and more seized bolts (header pipes to engine).

Got a second hand linkage shipped from the states, fairly cheap. Got clutch lever and fairing from a breaker. Finally got the bike back together, servicing swingarm, shock, and linkage, and rear wheel spindle, before putting back all back on. Got her running today -- started first time. Still waiting on some minor parts to have her road worthy, and needs a full service too, but think it should be fine.

Learned a sh!t load, but really curious about all these seizing parts, and how to avoid -- the bike is only a 2010. Obviously copper grease is an option, but you can't remove every bolt in a bike and treat it with copper grease just to prevent a problem in 4 years. Annoying.

Wonda-Boy

rat_race wrote: »

Update: I end up grinding the whole linkage off. There was simply no other option, no amount of strength or leverage would budge this without bending the frame (which I actually did a tiny bit). It was a nightmare, very awkward to get at, very close to some wires, breather pipes, and the bike frame.

In the process of this ordeal, I dropped the bike once, breaking the clutch lever and rear fender (actually, the wind blew it over while unattended).

Overall, I removed the rear wheel, calipers, swing arm, shock, all fairing, muffler, header pipes -- finding some other problems: broken exhaust/header band clamp and more seized bolts (header pipes to engine).

Got a second hand linkage shipped from the states, fairly cheap. Got clutch lever and fairing from a breaker. Finally got the bike back together, servicing swingarm, shock, and linkage, and rear wheel spindle, before putting back all back on. Got her running today -- started first time. Still waiting on some minor parts to have her road worthy, and needs a full service too, but think it should be fine.

Learned a sh!t load, but really curious about all these seizing parts, and how to avoid -- the bike is only a 2010. Obviously copper grease is an option, but you can't remove every bolt in a bike and treat it with copper grease just to prevent a problem in 4 years. Annoying.

Fair play, I would never be able to tackle a job like that. Even reading the problems you had my toes are curling with rage/anger/frustration!

Glad you learned a lot made it all worth while.

Cuddlesworth

rat_race wrote: »

Learned a sh!t load, but really curious about all these seizing parts, and how to avoid -- the bike is only a 2010. Obviously copper grease is an option, but you can't remove every bolt in a bike and treat it with copper grease just to prevent a problem in 4 years. Annoying.

For seized bolts you can pick up a electric impact wrench or a compressor and impact wrench from Lidl/Adli when they come up again. You generally need a specific set of sockets for them as well. They will move 99% of stuck bolts. The ones the shops use would be 1000Nm or above but 500Nm of direct impact would break most binds.

deegs

rat_race wrote: »

Update: I end up grinding the whole linkage off. There was simply no other option, no amount of strength or leverage would budge this without bending the frame (which I actually did a tiny bit). It was a nightmare, very awkward to get at, very close to some wires, breather pipes, and the bike frame.

In the process of this ordeal, I dropped the bike once, breaking the clutch lever and rear fender (actually, the wind blew it over while unattended).

Overall, I removed the rear wheel, calipers, swing arm, shock, all fairing, muffler, header pipes -- finding some other problems: broken exhaust/header band clamp and more seized bolts (header pipes to engine).

Got a second hand linkage shipped from the states, fairly cheap. Got clutch lever and fairing from a breaker. Finally got the bike back together, servicing swingarm, shock, and linkage, and rear wheel spindle, before putting back all back on. Got her running today -- started first time. Still waiting on some minor parts to have her road worthy, and needs a full service too, but think it should be fine.

Learned a sh!t load, but really curious about all these seizing parts, and how to avoid -- the bike is only a 2010. Obviously copper grease is an option, but you can't remove every bolt in a bike and treat it with copper grease just to prevent a problem in 4 years. Annoying.

Great lesson, you'll have the best maintained bikes from now on, as you know the damage that can be done.
That said, its very early for a 2010 to be like that. Only thing I can think of is did you power wash it? Or clean it extensively?
Mine is a 2005 and as far as I know the bearings and linkages have never been serviced but is a very good condition.

CJhaughey

Its very common to find new bikes with seized linkage bolts and swingarm pivot bolts.
The cause? Lack of grease when the bikes are being assembled
In the old days bikes were asembled a tub of grease and a little paintbrush to paint it on to to the bolts as the were assembled.
These days most are assembled dry or with the barest smear of grease, the. result is what you have found out.
I would highly recommend fitting grease nipples and stripping and regreasing at regular intervals from new.
It takes a little time but the benefits are substantial.

cantdecide

Annoying job OP but this is a lesson we can all learn. Well done on getting it sorted. I'll be educating myself in the ways of the linkage in the next few weeks too.

rat_race

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Fair play, I would never be able to tackle a job like that. Even reading the problems you had my toes are curling with rage/anger/frustration!

Glad you learned a lot made it all worth while.

Thanks, man!

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

For seized bolts you can pick up a electric impact wrench or a compressor and impact wrench from Lidl/Adli when they come up again. You generally need a specific set of sockets for them as well. They will move 99% of stuck bolts. The ones the shops use would be 1000Nm or above but 500Nm of direct impact would break most binds.

Thanks, I will invest in one of these next time I see them...

deegs wrote: »

Great lesson, you'll have the best maintained bikes from now on, as you know the damage that can be done.
That said, its very early for a 2010 to be like that. Only thing I can think of is did you power wash it? Or clean it extensively?
Mine is a 2005 and as far as I know the bearings and linkages have never been serviced but is a very good condition.

Never power-washed it, I know the damage it can do. Just bad luck. And I did ride this thing in all weather, all year round.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its very common to find new bikes with seized linkage bolts and swingarm pivot bolts.
The cause? Lack of grease when the bikes are being assembled
In the old days bikes were asembled a tub of grease and a little paintbrush to paint it on to to the bolts as the were assembled.
These days most are assembled dry or with the barest smear of grease, the. result is what you have found out.
I would highly recommend fitting grease nipples and stripping and regreasing at regular intervals from new.
It takes a little time but the benefits are substantial.

Thanks CJ -- your knowledge and clear answers are always much appreciated, and helpful to everyone.

cantdecide wrote: »

Annoying job OP but this is a lesson we can all learn. Well done on getting it sorted. I'll be educating myself in the ways of the linkage in the next few weeks too.

Let us know how ya get on!

Cuddlesworth

rat_race wrote: »

Thanks, I will invest in one of these next time I see them...

If you plan on doing loads of work its not a bad idea, you can pick up the electric wrench and socket set for under 100 quid. There is nothing worse than a stuck bolt, as you found out.

cantdecide

cantdecide wrote: »

I'll be educating myself in the ways of the linkage in the next few weeks too.

rat_race wrote: »

Let us know how ya get on!

Badly Bearings completely fecked. Another job for the list...

rat_race

cantdecide wrote: »

Badly Bearings completely fecked. Another job for the list...

At least you got the linkage out... How old are the bearings/is the bike? Are they all fooked (bearings in each bore)?

There were no bearings in my linkage; just bushings. Or maybe there was in one of the three bores, I cannot recall now. There were bearings in the swingarm alright.

What's your plan on getting them out? I don't have a press. I would be tempted to try to small socket one one side, big socket on the other, and a vice. Curious how well this works...

blade1

rat_race wrote: »

At least you got the linkage out... How old are the bearings/is the bike? Are they all fooked (bearings in each bore)?

There were no bearings in my linkage; just bushings. Or maybe there was in one of the three bores, I cannot recall now. There were bearings in the swingarm alright.

What's your plan on getting them out? I don't have a press. I would be tempted to try to small socket one one side, big socket on the other, and a vice. Curious how well this works...

I used a dremmel to cut them out before.