Fair Deal Scheme and Nursing home charges

feebie

Hope this is in the right forum.

Wondering if anyone here has experience with the Fair Deal Scheme. My Dad has dementia and is in a nursing home under the Fair Deal Scheme for the past 3 years. Under the scheme, he is supposed to pay 80% of his OAP to the nursing home (he will also pay part of the proceeds of the sale of his house to the HSE). After he had been in the nursing home about 1 year, they raised their fees by about EU30 per week... we were (and are) happy with the care he was getting so paid the increase. Now they have come back with another increase (approx 25 per week).

It was my understanding that once we signed on for the Fair Deal, that would be it, he would pay his 80% and we would pay for incidentals such as toiletries, hair cuts etc., We have advised the nursing home he can't pay any more .. his pension will barely cover it and he'll have nothing left for his newspaper / haircuts... they say if we don't pay increase now, they'll bill us when house is sold? I spoke with someone in Fair Deal area of HSE but they weren't too helpful.. I will call again and try to speak with someone a tad more knowledgeable but in the meantime I thought I'd reach out here in case someone has had a similar experience.

Thank you.

ljcoolk

Your grievance is with the Nursing Home not the scheme itself. I take it you signed a contract with the chosen Nursing Home its probably in the fine print. What exactly are the nursing home charging the extra money for ? if its for activities and as you state your father has dementia more than likely he is not partaking in these activities, why pay for services you are no receiving. Don't pay !

Here is a link with regards what is covered under the scheme

http://www.dohc.ie/issues/fair_deal/informatinsheet%20_fees.pdf?direct=1

As far as the nursing home office are concerned the issue is between family and the nursing home, they do not get invloved , its basically the nursing home being money hungry, its scaremongering. My advice is don't pay the extra and if the scaremongering continues contact your local TD they should pursue the matter with the nursing home directly !

The nursing home have no legal basis taking money from deceased applicants another form of scaremongering, by any chance is this nursing home part of a larger chain ? tackle management on the legality of this claim and you will soon see them back down

feebie

Thanks ljcoolk, I understand that our grievance is with the nursing home itself and we are refusing to pay (home is not part of a chain), we will tackle management re legality as suggested. We were initially told that extra charges were for activities.. when we pointed out that my Dad didn't participate in any activities they backtracked and said it was for "everything" (we already supply toiletries and pay for haircuts, chiropodist,), definitely feels like scaremongering.. we will dig our heels in.

Looks like we are not alone http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0318/603088-fair-deal/ ..

ljcoolk

feebie wrote: »

Thanks ljcoolk, I understand that our grievance is with the nursing home itself and we are refusing to pay (home is not part of a chain), we will tackle management re legality as suggested. We were initially told that extra charges were for activities.. when we pointed out that my Dad didn't participate in any activities they backtracked and said it was for "everything" (we already supply toiletries and pay for haircuts, chiropodist,), definitely feels like scaremongering.. we will dig our heels in.

Looks like we are not alone http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0318/603088-fair-deal/ ..

Nursing homes are crying the pauper when in fact they've never been more profitable. If they have an issue with the rate agreed with the ntpf they should bash it out and not pass the cost onto residents, definitely fight for the cause talk to other residents family members take on a united front and consult a local tds I've seen this method work in the past. All the best

pog it

OP, are you able to avail of any tax relief on the 80% you are paying?

feebie

My Dad pays 80% of his state pension pog it, we supplement when necessary to pay for incidentals like haircuts, toiletries, chiropodist etc., but bulk of payment is made by my Dad himself.

pog it

feebie wrote: »

My Dad pays 80% of his state pension pog it, we supplement when necessary to pay for incidentals like haircuts, toiletries, chiropodist etc., but bulk of payment is made by my Dad himself.

Yes I realise that and most people in a nursing home normally have some form of pension paying the costs anyway - same for my father.
We were able to avail of 41% tax relief on what he pays the nursing home. I think you should look into that too.

So instead of my dad paying 800 a week, he is paying about 450 a week.
Now my dad has a private pension so that may be a factor, and I realise that.
I still think you should consult a good accountant as even if you can't get that 41% you may be entitled to some other tax relief for this.

Try the accountancy section here or on askaboutmoney as well.

feebie

Thanks pog it, will check with accountant.

manana

In the USA it is illegal for a nursing home to make a relative go guarantor as a condition of entry. Has anyone been asked to sign such a contract here?

Please note : "Places paid for by the HSE are often referred to as “contract beds”, “WnVA beds” or “delayed discharge beds”. If your place in a private nursing home is paid for by the HSE, you should use the complaints procedure for public nursing homes." ( health complaints.ie) ie HIQUA has a role in the contacts.

sad dub

Having similar problem our mother in a public bed in a large Dublin hosp told she needs long term care and that we have to proccess fairdeals to get loan for nursing home or pay 1200 a week in hosp bed bills my mother lived on her own and has a medical card and is on state old age pension found hosp notice on charges given to family v intimidating told to look at nursing homes ,when we started to look discovered that most Dublin nursing homes have lots of extra costs over and above my mothers means ,we dont have enduring power of attorney and cant pay these charges from our own pockets ,nor should we be excepted however surely this bullyboy approach by public hospital illegal .we are between a rock and a hard place ,any advice we have been told if we choose a home and no bed we have to keep giving more names of nursing homes however only the public ones dont have extra charges under fairdeal and not many on the list we were given to sell my mothers home would take up to 2 yrs under ward of court she has dementia ,and we are told shed not competent now feel they have our backs to the wall

looksee

sad dub wrote: »

Having similar problem. Our mother in a public bed in a large Dublin hosp. We were told she needs long term care and that we have to proccess fairdeals to get loan for nursing home, or pay 1200 a week in hosp bed bills.

My mother lived on her own and has a medical card and is on state old age pension.

We found the hosp notice on charges given to family v intimidating. We were told to look at nursing homes. When we started to look we discovered that most Dublin nursing homes have lots of extra costs over and above my mothers means. We dont have enduring power of attorney and cant pay these charges from our own pockets ,nor should we be expected.

However surely this bullyboy approach by public hospital is illegal .We are between a rock and a hard place. Any advice? We have been told if we choose a home and there is no bed we have to keep giving more names of nursing homes, however only the public ones dont have extra charges under fairdeal and there were not many on the list we were given. To sell my mothers home would take up to 2 yrs under ward of court. She has dementia ,and we are told she's not competent. Now feel they have our backs to the wall

Mod: sad dub I have taken the liberty of adding some punctuation and paragraphs to your post to make it easier to understand. Please read my version and see if it is what you were intending to say.

I understand that you are upset and anxious about this situation, and it may be that people here can help you.

looksee

Sad dub, are you saying that there is some reason why you cannot use the fairdeal process? It is not quite clear why you feel there is a bullying approach?

CiDeRmAn

I have a friend involved with the Fair deal approach here in work, I'll try to get a view on how it is to work and get back here with the information.

Annahouse3

feebie wrote: »

Hope this is in the right forum.

Wondering if anyone here has experience with the Fair Deal Scheme. My Dad has dementia and is in a nursing home under the Fair Deal Scheme for the past 3 years. Under the scheme, he is supposed to pay 80% of his OAP to the nursing home (he will also pay part of the proceeds of the sale of his house to the HSE). After he had been in the nursing home about 1 year, they raised their fees by about EU30 per week... we were (and are) happy with the care he was getting so paid the increase. Now they have come back with another increase (approx 25 per week).

It was my understanding that once we signed on for the Fair Deal, that would be it, he would pay his 80% and we would pay for incidentals such as toiletries, hair cuts etc., We have advised the nursing home he can't pay any more .. his pension will barely cover it and he'll have nothing left for his newspaper / haircuts... they say if we don't pay increase now, they'll bill us when house is sold? I spoke with someone in Fair Deal area of HSE but they weren't too helpful.. I will call again and try to speak with someone a tad more knowledgeable but in the meantime I thought I'd reach out here in case someone has had a similar experience.

Thank you.

These fees sound like private fees the nursing home are charging you. Seperate to fair deal. Once your contribution is determined under fd it can't change unless you ask fir re assessment. If you feel charges nh are asking for are unnecessary I would consider reporting them to hiqa

milltree

A relative has recently moved into a Nursing Home. She is currently being funded by the Transition payment from the hospital where she was being treated until the Fair Deal scheme is approved. However, in addition to the contribution from her pension, which is the basic OAP pension, she will also have to pay a service charge. She has hardly anything left from her pension, so will be left with nothing for herself at the end of the week, and has very little savings. My question, if anyone can is, can she claim tax relief on the service charge portion which she has to pay herself?

Uriel.

milltree wrote: »

A relative has recently moved into a Nursing Home. She is currently being funded by the Transition payment from the hospital where she was being treated until the Fair Deal scheme is approved. However, in addition to the contribution from her pension, which is the basic OAP pension, she will also have to pay a service charge. She has hardly anything left from her pension, so will be left with nothing for herself at the end of the week, and has very little savings. My question, if anyone can is, can she claim tax relief on the service charge portion which she has to pay herself?

Is it a private nursing home or hse?
I'm not sure what you mean by service charge

She can claim tax relief on her contribution under fair deal.