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News / media articles
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19-03-2014 10:39am#1See the journal.ie today for supposed leak on HSE DFB plan for removal of ambos.....
Anyone know when an upcoming primetime programme on HSE Ambulance service is scheduled for? or is it a myth...0
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Just on that subject, I heard in the news earlier of an ambulance in Dublin that had a sick child within and the vehicle broke down with all the doors locked on it. So a paramedic with the child was locked into the back of it until they were released by the fire service.
I wonder how in this and age this can happen? Surely locks in ambulances should be fail safe instead of fail secure.
Was it a DFB or NAS ambulance?0 -
most news sties say dfb, rte said dfb but used a hse vehicle as the picture for itJust on that subject, I heard in the news earlier of an ambulance in Dublin that had a sick child within and the vehicle broke down with all the doors locked on it. So a paramedic with the child was locked into the back of it until they were released by the fire service.
I wonder how in this and age this can happen? Surely locks in ambulances should be fail safe instead of fail secure.
Was it a DFB or NAS ambulance?0 -
Just seen it advertised last night 'The truth about the ambulance service' ?prime time next Tuesday night....
Sorry .... 'The Ambulance service uncovered.'0 -
crackcrack30 wrote: »Just seen it advertised last night 'The truth about the ambulance service' ?prime time next Tuesday night....
Sorry .... 'The Ambulance service uncovered.'
Promo for prime time
Related articles
25/03/2014 Breaking news article Writer: Unknown
25/03/2014 RTE article Writer: Unknown
25/03/2014 Independent article Writer: Alan O'Keefe
Seems to be a witch hunt on lately, funny that the Irish Mirror is not leading the march.
25/03/2014 Appology for ambulance wait after RTA - Irish Times Writer: Kitty Holland
24/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Examiner Writer: Elaine Keogh
24/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Hearld Writer: Elaine Keogh
23/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Independent Writer: Elaine Keogh
23/03/2014 Ambulance services needs co-ordination - The Independent Writer: Emer O'Kelly
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Journal Writer: Ronan Duffy
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Hearld Writer: Elaine Keogh
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Examiner Writer: Elaine Keogh
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Irish Mirror Writer: Elaine Keogh
19/03/2014 Child locked in ambulance - The Journal Writer: Paul Hosford
15/03/2014 Ambulance cover - The Journal Writer: Aoife Barry0 -
Promo for prime time
Related articles
25/03/2014 Breaking news article
25/03/2014 RTE article
25/03/2014 Independent article
Seems to be a witch hunt on lately, funny that the Irish Mirror is not leading the march.
25/03/2014 Appology for ambulance wait after RTA - Irish Times
24/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Examiner
24/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Hearld
23/03/2014 Wheels off ambulance - The Independent
23/03/2014 Ambulance services needs co-ordination - The Independent
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Journal
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Hearld
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Examiner
21/03/2014 Ambulance breakdown - The Irish Mirror
19/03/2014 Child locked in ambulance - The Journal
15/03/2014 Ambulance cover - The Journal
Been move to Wednesday night instead of tonight0 -
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Funny isn't it both the guards and the ambulance service in trouble..... & both on the coalface of the public service 365 days a year.....what's wrong ?,whats letting us down so bad.....its beyond the control and cause of the 5/8 uniformed lads that I meet & work with.0
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Will be watching Prime Time tonight, I expect NAS officers' cars to be put to good use afterwards... ;D0
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Will be watching Prime Time tonight, I expect NAS officers' cars to be put to good use afterwards... ;D
I loved the last bit.. boss says we have the best vehicles, equipment, uniforms, training, servicing ... seems like the gap is the management, accountability, selfishness NAS officers? ... cute hoor.. activity with the abuse of those cars .. shame on the organisation and its leaders0 -
A lot of food for thought there for the levels above, shamefull statistics.
Way to many hangers on in the service that believe emergencies only happen 9-5 Monday to Friday....that like driving around in 4x4's, and strive to avoid at the earliest chance in their careers the work that they are trained and paid to do...... i.e patient contact.
In balance there are some good grounded officers who aren't afraid to put on a pair of gloves..0 -
forgot about prime time but caught the last few minutes and to tell the truth I was gobsmacked.the cheek to say they have the est service in Europe what a joke.that poor man near gory that had to watch his brother bleed to death,the people of enniscorthy waiting an hour and a half for an ambulance because there was no crew for the one in the town.a bloody shamble.
just over a year ago my son who was 6 1/2 at the time had breathing trouble(luckily nt too serious) so my wife called southdoc who in turn called for an ambulance.
the rapid response arrived quite quick as did the doctor but we must have waited at least 45mins for the ambulance as it had to go to cork first then come to us and because they weren't from the area they got lost too.the best service in Europe!!!0 -
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Having watched the programme, some thoughts come to mind.
If you know nothing about NAS, all seems completely believeable. If you do, different story.......
The majority of the programme was built around a collection of newspaper articles where family members were subsequently sought out and interviewed. Whilst these stories are truly traumatic for the families involved, these calls represent less that 0.1% of all 999 calls. They did not reference all of the calls that go right (99.9%), but yet we have a crisis.
and
3 x "whistle blowers" interviewed and identified (two former NAS) are well known in NAS circles as being seriously "disgruntled" with at least two of them being NASRA mouthpieces.
These points alone draw into question the entirety of the piece. Remember, journalistic principles are based on balanced, not one sided reporting.
The shift dropping piece focused on exaggerating numbers where rosters have actually changed and rostered overtime removed. Agreed rostered are not dropped shifts. Just another example here of grievances about loosing rostered overtime under the PSA being aired in public. The programme touched on the high level of absenteeism but did not prob it.
The use of stats was pointed. They did not examine any statistic trends from published data that shows modest improvements. They did not explain any of the indicators or clarify that they did not apply to all 999 calls. They did not adequately explain from the public viewing perspective what categories of calls they commented on or whether or not they were encompassed by the Response KPIs. What they did do, I suspect without knowing it, was demonstrate that dynamic deployment and call prioritisation were actively being used.
The quoting of the numbers of ambulances in Ireland did not clarify that these vehicles were not on the road but actually additional spare capacity that had been reduced because of changes to manufacturers preventative schedules and/or improved centralisation of fleet management and rotation. Again, the public viewer was left with a warped perception that there were X number of ambulances less on the road. They not not quote the total man hours available year on year (easily available through FOI) or quote the fact that staff numbers have gone from 1398 in 2010 to 1650 today.
The single most disturbing fact for me when listening to the well known disgruntled former Wexford Controller talking about the "county" was that they did not pick up on the problems that multiple Control Centres cause. In that particular piece, they mentioned a couple of calls in Gorey, but, failed to pick up on the fact that the next nearest Station was Arklow, not Wexford or Enniscorthy. Demonstrates the tunnel vision of the whistle blower and the journo looking for a story. More importantly from a patient's perspective, it did not expose the weaknesses of having multiple Control Centres. Really worrying when people in Control Centres don't understand they are supposed to call a neighbouring Control Centre to check if their ambulance (if closer) is available
The piece about ORVs originated in the former NE. If you look at PQs on www.kildarestreet.com you will see the same Sinn Fein TDs from the same area have raised the issue consistently. There have been some exceptions to the rule where local NASRA do what they do well, tell a half arsed story to the local media and tar everyone in NAS with the one brush. TDs only raise issues when people contact them. The NE was a big loser of overtime. The piece failed to acknowledge that some Officers, e.g. ECAOs, regularly respond to emergency calls. It also failed to acknowledge that those Officers whom are on call receive no payment whatsover and are on call for a lot more than responding to calls. They also did not probe what procedures are in place: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/businesssupport.html
The piece about 3 new Stations in the West was poorly researched. The plan was always to introduce the Intermediate Care Service in those areas (this has happened), free up emergency ambulances from transfers (e.g. Castlebar Hospital is a big user for transfers) and redistribute the available ambulances to provide better coverage using the same resources to the same number of calls. Not remotely explained or explored.
The piece did not explore the legal morass that NAS has had to deal with from years of being sued by private operators trying inhibit the development of the Intermediate Care Service to slice of the non emergency workload what what that has cost the country.
The piece did not explore the role of Unions or HSE Corporate in supporting or inhibiting change.
The inputs from the Director, NAS was probably heavily edited but nevertheless very disappointing and probably reflective of the current quality of leadership as distinct from management (two different but complementary concepts). What is laughable tonite, is that some of the Officers within NAS are commenting on Facebook as I write about how accurate the programme was, etc. etc. What they seem not to realise is that they are the "Managers" being referred to and it is their failure to provide leadership during difficult times that is an the core of many issues within NAS. A good kick up the arse for some of them about these cars has been along time coming.
The internal credibility of the PHECC contributor was also disappointing. This was a piece for someone with a strong clinical background. Also disappointing that they did not interview the NAS Medical Director or anyone from HIQA.
Overall, the piece was poor, narrow and an obvious airing of a small minority of staff's grievances, facilitated by an eager and lazy media outlet. It was completely one sided and without balance, something you would expect from our national broadcaster.
The most important message was probably lost because of the way the story was told. Ireland was never, from the get go, ever in a position to deliver on the HIQA standards. You cannot introduce UK style performance indicators without UK levels of resourcing. It was always the case that NAS had to deal with it's inefficiencies and work practices before it could justify any new investment. It has done that, hence all the reform, organisational change, parochial responses, loss of overtime, etc. However, now is the time for politicians to step up to the plate, make hard decisions, take money from non essential public services and invest heavily in NAS. The alternative is more of the same.
This is Ireland, and I am a realist and I suspect, we will get a run on the media, lots of PQs, targeted slants on the Minister by the Opposition and expert "assessment" and "analysis" from the usual bag of "experts" rolled out on Newstalk, Pat Kenny, Morning Ireland, Twitter, etc. but nothing will change and people will still fearful and we continue to undermine the professionalism and morale of the people whom serve us in our time of most need.0 -
Some very good points about the program above. Its Management who came across badly in this.
If Dunne thinks we have one of the best Ambulance Services in the World; How does he compare our service with that of the UK?
Should it be compulsory that new entrants to the Ambulance Service be trained to work alone in Response Cars? e.g. Two person crew rostered. One rings in sick so other goes in car.........
Are Trade Unions been over protective?
It was mentioned in the program. Is absenteeism a problem?
*** I am not working for any Ambulance Service but in all fairness it paints a bd picture and I think the staff should stand up for themselves. Maybe a bit of Whistle Blowing.0 -
There is no escaping that we are under resourced. Some parts of the country are worse resourced than others.
Controllers are under pressure everyday to get ambulance to calls even though the ambulances are stretched passed coping.
The regional control centres always look to neighbouring areas for help getting ambulances in life threatening calls. (The poster above mentioned Gorry, but the nearest other eastern region base is Arklow, which is another ambulance station under pressure with resources, I imagine the Arklow ambulance was out)
The development of the national control will help, but that still won't make ambulances appear out of thin air.
The program showed a snapshot of an under resourcing problem spanning the country. From rural Ireland And including the problems the Dublin fire brigade and dublin based national ambulance service ambulances have getting to calls.
I don't think labelling the "whistleblowers" as disgruntled or any thing else makes a difference. I work in the service and ALL my colleagues feel that the only issue with the program was that it did not highlight the full extent of the problems. I think the staff members were very brave to go on tv and tell the story to the people. Everyone should know that the ambulance service is not safely resourced, and that some of the scant resources are being misused by management.
Also yes staff levels have increased, but most of those positions are for the patient transport service (intermediate care) and we do not have any more paramedics in our area. There may be a small increase of paramedics in some areas of the country. But it certainly doesn't go far enough to maintain the service.
Maybe the increase in staff levels would explain the numbers of officers/managers in the country.
In a nut shell: the program had an agenda and that was to highlight the resourcing problems, it did that. They weren't exaggerating any part. In fact I feel that management got of lightly compared to the reality.0 -
The issue is definitely that the service is under resourced.
People talk about the fire based Ambulance model.
But if that means Cork Co Co running the Ambulance service - errrm - thanks but no thanks.
Anyway - the big issue is level of resources rather then what model we have.
The service needs to be funded PROPERLY and resourced properly in terms of staffing.
Like if you take the Wexford examples - if you had extra ambulances FULLY STAFFED available in the area to deal with calls - your going to have to have better response times - and better availability of Ambulances.
Still scratching my head wondering about the figure of 100 k - as the cost of a Rapid response car though.
Looking at the programme last night - I saw in terms of RRVs - Mondeos, Focuses, Subaru Foresters, Hyundai Santa Fes - those are not 100 k motors.
A Mondeo - in 2.0 diesel form - would - imo - have been around the 32 to 36 k type mark.
Bit of a gap there I would say - surely it doesn't cost that much to rig out an RRV????0 -
CPR band could cost 15k?
Top of range defib 20k?
It's not cheap to kit out a car I'd say...
I think somethings have to happen here like for instance driving their own car to work like everyone else in the country..... If they need a car or van when they get there that's a different story have one or two that can be shared....kitted or non kitted?
Do they get on call allowance,
- If yes then take the car home but be available as a resource with no gripes & log calls to prove need/efficency in area...
- If no the they have no business answering calls or having a car...
end of.0 -
Old diesel wrote: »The issue is definitely that the service is under resourced.
People talk about the fire based Ambulance model.
But if that means Cork Co Co running the Ambulance service - errrm - thanks but no thanks.
Anyway - the big issue is level of resources rather then what model we have.
The service needs to be funded PROPERLY and resourced properly in terms of staffing.
Like if you take the Wexford examples - if you had extra ambulances FULLY STAFFED available in the area to deal with calls - your going to have to have better response times - and better availability of Ambulances.
Still scratching my head wondering about the figure of 100 k - as the cost of a Rapid response car though.
Looking at the programme last night - I saw in terms of RRVs - Mondeos, Focuses, Subaru Foresters, Hyundai Santa Fes - those are not 100 k motors.
A Mondeo - in 2.0 diesel form - would - imo - have been around the 32 to 36 k type mark.
Bit of a gap there I would say - surely it doesn't cost that much to rig out an RRV????
I presume its the equipment that costs a lot of money. But even at that I dont see why it would costs 100k.
Yeah sure the defibs are like 10,000 euro from what i googled, and outfitting of lights and decals is prob a fair amount.
But 100k seems a bit far fetched.0 -
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crackcrack30 wrote: »CPR band could cost 15k?
Top of range defib 20k?
It's not cheap to kit out a car I'd say...
I think somethings have to happen here like for instance driving their own car to work like everyone else in the country..... If they need a car or van when they get there that's a different story have one or two that can be shared....kitted or non kitted?
Do they get on call allowance,
- If yes then take the car home but be available as a resource with no gripes & log calls to prove need/efficency in area...
- If no the they have no business answering calls or having a car...
end of.
Your right - kitting out the RRV so that everything an Advanced Paramedic would need to do his/her job is on board - woul not be cheap at all.
Thing im wondering though - is if the manager goes on call - could there not be an RRV there for that purpose - and it would only be for responding to calls.
So if you go on call on a Wednesday evening - you can bring the RRV with you - so its there for any calls.
But if your not going on call on Thursday - you don't get the RRV - and its there for anyone else to use
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Non-believer makes some very interesting remarks - thank you.
What are peoples thoughts on the reported absenteeism rates? I read on daily mirror (I know!) that rates in the North-East are 10.7% (I couldn't find any other data on these rates). This is an amazing number. The programme seems to blame the NAS for not replacing staff on sick leave and causing dropped shifts rather than trying to determine the factors for such high absenteeism rates. Is that not a skewed way to look at it? Surely, the NAS should be aiming to come in under the 3.5% target of the rest of the HSE? What is the other paramedic doing while his partner is on sick leave? Can s/he be redeployed to another local area with a similarly 'dropped shift' colleague. Throwing resources at a problem without identifying the problems at all aspects of the process from initial call to 999 and the ambulance leaving the hospital after having their patient admitted doesn't make sense to me.0 -
Non-believer makes some very interesting remarks - thank you.
What are peoples thoughts on the reported absenteeism rates? I read on daily mirror (I know!) that rates in the North-East are 10.7% (I couldn't find any other data on these rates). This is an amazing number. The programme seems to blame the NAS for not replacing staff on sick leave and causing dropped shifts rather than trying to determine the factors for such high absenteeism rates. Is that not a skewed way to look at it? Surely, the NAS should be aiming to come in under the 3.5% target of the rest of the HSE? What is the other paramedic doing while his partner is on sick leave? Can s/he be redeployed to another local area with a similarly 'dropped shift' colleague. Throwing resources at a problem without identifying the problems at all aspects of the process from initial call to 999 and the ambulance leaving the hospital after having their patient admitted doesn't make sense to me.
Good Question..
& im not going to attempt to answer it because obviously it is a massive figure and could not be 'fixed or solved' here without considering full facts figures and individual cases, what I can do is provide some possible reasons that could be wrong , rejected or right. I don't work in HR or mgt.
Long term sick....... as in out for months , maternity, back injuries cancer ect as in any other job.
The environment (health)...... We are exposed to sick people and are going to be the first catch anything going.
Method of recording sick leave....... out sick tonight & off shift for 3 nights and then back in is recorded as 4 nights sick....!? madness.
Individual cases......... I believe in one region 3 people were responsible for something like 50% of the sick leave for whatever reason.
Stress ...... take for instance the workload attributed to the six people or three crews over the few nights reorded in Co Wexford... or limerick or Roscommon, limerick ect ......you can keep that up for a while but eventually something has to give. Nothing extra is ever provided not even on busy bank holiday Weekends.
Burnout ......same thing but with the trauma of RTC,s, cardiac arrests ,nuciance calls, rapes , assaults , thrown in on top of time measurement , delays ect, ect.. somethings going to give....& may contribute to sick leave....
and btw you are then expected to do this for the NAS into your late 60's.0 -
Just Googling, I came up with thisOld diesel wrote: »Your right - kitting out the RRV so that everything an Advanced Paramedic would need to do his/her job is on board - woul not be cheap at all.
I take it the Mondeos, 4WDs and Harleys won't cost the same. But if its €600,000 for about 16 vehicles (including the bikes), presumably the cost of an RRV is around €40,000 to €50,000.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056360629
Press Release 10th April 2011
"The HSE National Ambulance Service has taken delivery of a new fleet of 16 state of the art Rapid Response Vehicles representing an investment of approx €0.6 million in fleet replacement. The new fleet consists of 10 Ford Mondeo Estate cars, 3 Subaru Forester all wheel drive estate cars and 3 Harley Davidson Special Motorcycles. <...>
That's still a lot of money to gift someone just to have a vehicle to commute to work in, using company petrol. It's unfortunate when journos go for the inflated figure, as it makes the real figures seem low by comparision.
I wonder do any of these dudes pay tax on the apparent benefit-in-kind ?0 -
Unfortunately, it seems there is little understanding within NAS for the purpose of ORVs. Obviously, there is less in the public domain when you put the Prime Time spin version out there. The attached might help answer questions: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/businesssupport.html
My understanding (open to correction) is that procedure was an effort to manage the disparity between various Officers being available for service needs. There is a difference between being available and being calls out. You can be available all night but not be called out because there is no actual service need. The "available" element is about risk mitigation, i.e. having access to someone in the event of, etc. Those Officers whom make themselves available for business hours only (cannot take cars home), partial hours (minimum requirement) which recognises some Officers may have to travel early for work purposes or full availability. Full availability is often used when the Officer lives in an area where First Response is a significant benefit to the service. An example would be Wicklow. It is important to stress that none of these Officers are paid a retainer, or on call money, or mileage, or receive payments for callouts. It is a good will system because unlike other emergency services, NAS does not have enough Officers to provide 24/7 cover.
For the most part, i would agree with CrackCrack30 on the sick leave but would add a couple:
Significant female workforce whom are more prone to musculoskeletal injury
Pregnancy related sick leave (3 months) and increased maternity leave together with unpaid maternity leave generally means gone for 12 months
Culture - from the time you arrive, you are told by some union heads to make sure and use ALL your sick days
Overtime scams - back in the day when short notice sick leave shifts were covered, it was not unusual for a couple of "mates" to create overtime opportunities for each other. Source of a lot of today's noise......
Force majeure leave
Increase parental leave
Carers leave
For 11 years (1997-2008), the unions blocked the introduction of a relief factor, i.e. a cohort of workers to cover all forms of leave (FOI the correspondence) so that inflated overtime earnings and lifestyles could be maintained. It has all backfired now, despite eventually agreeing to it in 2008. The Welsh Ambulance Service uses a 35% relief factor, many others use 40%. Ireland got agreement on 30% which is not enough when you consider all of the reasons (thank you EU legislation) for not coming to work
Annual leave - When someone can't get leave, a minority just ring in sick
And then there is the matter of how it is counted.........for the average worker, a sick day is a calendar day. However in NAS, if you were due to work a 12 hour shift and rang in sick, it is still a calendar day even though it costs the service 1.5 days to cover. Before OT rates were cut, that was 1.5 x doubletime overtime (if no relief available), or 3 days pay to cover 1 days sick leave. Does take a rocket scientist to figure out why there is so much angst about sick leave.0 -
NonBeliever14 wrote: »Unfortunately, it seems there is little understanding within NAS for the purpose of ORVs. Obviously, there is less in the public domain when you put the Prime Time spin version out there. The attached might help answer questions: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/businesssupport.html
My understanding (open to correction) is that procedure was an effort to manage the disparity between various Officers being available for service needs. There is a difference between being available and being calls out. You can be available all night but not be called out because there is no actual service need. The "available" element is about risk mitigation, i.e. having access to someone in the event of, etc. Those Officers whom make themselves available for business hours only (cannot take cars home), partial hours (minimum requirement) which recognises some Officers may have to travel early for work purposes or full availability. Full availability is often used when the Officer lives in an area where First Response is a significant benefit to the service. An example would be Wicklow. It is important to stress that none of these Officers are paid a retainer, or on call money, or mileage, or receive payments for callouts. It is a good will system because unlike other emergency services, NAS does not have enough Officers to provide 24/7 cover.
For the most part, i would agree with CrackCrack30 on the sick leave but would add a couple:
Significant female workforce whom are more prone to musculoskeletal injury
Pregnancy related sick leave (3 months) and increased maternity leave together with unpaid maternity leave generally means gone for 12 months
Culture - from the time you arrive, you are told by some union heads to make sure and use ALL your sick days
Overtime scams - back in the day when short notice sick leave shifts were covered, it was not unusual for a couple of "mates" to create overtime opportunities for each other. Source of a lot of today's noise......
Force majeure leave
Increase parental leave
Carers leave
For 11 years (1997-2008), the unions blocked the introduction of a relief factor, i.e. a cohort of workers to cover all forms of leave (FOI the correspondence) so that inflated overtime earnings and lifestyles could be maintained. It has all backfired now, despite eventually agreeing to it in 2008. The Welsh Ambulance Service uses a 35% relief factor, many others use 40%. Ireland got agreement on 30% which is not enough when you consider all of the reasons (thank you EU legislation) for not coming to work
Annual leave - When someone can't get leave, a minority just ring in sick
And then there is the matter of how it is counted.........for the average worker, a sick day is a calendar day. However in NAS, if you were due to work a 12 hour shift and rang in sick, it is still a calendar day even though it costs the service 1.5 days to cover. Before OT rates were cut, that was 1.5 x doubletime overtime (if no relief available), or 3 days pay to cover 1 days sick leave. Does take a rocket scientist to figure out why there is so much angst about sick leave.
Are you saying that Forced majeure, parental leave & carers leave are used to for and in an account for an over all sick rate as quoted for in the North east of 10.7% ??? that cant be right .......and if it is it has to be skewering the figures.
As for your final point on how it is counted ....are you saying that an actual sick day is counted as a sick day or as 3 sick days due to overtime pay??....... if you are that is incredible an is a multiple of 3 and there for the 10.7% should be 3.5% which would be in line with industry and a low for the HSE.0 -
NonBeliever14 wrote: »Unfortunately, it seems there is little understanding within NAS for the purpose of ORVs. Obviously, there is less in the public domain when you put the Prime Time spin version out there. The attached might help answer questions: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/businesssupport.html
My understanding (open to correction) is that procedure was an effort to manage the disparity between various Officers being available for service needs. There is a difference between being available and being calls out. You can be available all night but not be called out because there is no actual service need. The "available" element is about risk mitigation, i.e. having access to someone in the event of, etc. Those Officers whom make themselves available for business hours only (cannot take cars home), partial hours (minimum requirement) which recognises some Officers may have to travel early for work purposes or full availability. Full availability is often used when the Officer lives in an area where First Response is a significant benefit to the service. An example would be Wicklow. It is important to stress that none of these Officers are paid a retainer, or on call money, or mileage, or receive payments for callouts. It is a good will system because unlike other emergency services, NAS does not have enough Officers to provide 24/7 cover.
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What has to be decided here & I would prefer it to be done a by third independent party ... (as currently the the decisions are being taken by those that are significantly benefiting by the cars at a cost to the HSE & tax payer).... is if there is value in having 60-70 people using 5 million euros worth of equipment + running costs answering or being available to answer such a low volume of calls?
Would the money be better spent elsewhere taking into consideration that the whole of the DFB ambulance service costs roughly 10 million.
Would you agree NonBeliever ?0 -
CrackCrack30 Force Majeure, Parental, Carers and many other forms of leave are not counted as "sick leave". However, they do in many cases exacerbate the issue of shift dropping as Force Majeure is as short notice as sick leave and an increasing number of people want to take parental leave in single days.
Sick leave is counted in hours but taken as Calendar days. In other words, the employee get the benefit of taking one and a half days off sick but it is only counted as one day (because of 12 hour shift). However, up until overtime rates were changed, NAS had to spend the equivalent of 3 days pay (1.5 x 2 T overtime) to cover it if on overtime. In relation to the 10.7%, the 12 hours sick as 1 calendar day obviously pushes it up rather than a normal 5 day worker whose calendar day would be 7.8 hours (39 hours / 5 days).
I don't agree with your second point on ORVs. The business and operational case as well as road traffic and H&S considerations arising from Officers using their own cars to respond has demonstrated that it is cheaper to do it this way than pay Officers travelling expenses (like the rest of the public sector) to use their own cars. The HSE does not pay road tax as State vehicles are exempt, purchase prices are cheaper (they obviously don't pay showroom prices when buying in bulk) and pay less for fuel. They also dont have to pay car insurance as they are covered by the State Claims Agency in the event of a claim. There is then the intangible service benefit of having access to Officers whom are not paid to be available. You might call it a quid pro quo arrangement. My understanding is the the Revenue Commissioners were asked to review the BIK rules and are all kosher as well. Have a read of the link above or do an FOI.
Regarding the Prime Time programme, they forgot to leave out that the poor individual driving from Donegal to Dublin to work was assigned to that role and did not receive any extra money or expenses. He travels at least 7 hours round trip as well as a days work and contactable en route and at night for NO extra pay. I can see a big queue for that "junket"
In relation to 5m, not sure how you come up with that figure as many ORVs are second line vehicles, ranging from about 2002-2007 for the most part. More modern vehicles are in the minority. Some of the fleet is well worn and probably worth about 3,000. Others could be worth up to 15000 on a resale. Even if you sold them all and raised, say 1m (unlikely), it is a once off figure. You still end up spending more on travelling expenses (these guys travel a lot around their large geographical areas to do their jobs). So you save nothing, in fact you spend more and loose the operational capacity of Officers out of hours. Officers for the most part earn less than the people they manage (again do an FOI)
Once of savings if any from selling cars would be a once of saving. You need 10m EVERY year, to pay wages.0 -
NonBeliever14 wrote: »CrackCrack30 Force Majeure, Parental, Carers and many other forms of leave are not counted as "sick leave". However, they do in many cases exacerbate the issue of shift dropping as Force Majeure is as short notice as sick leave and an increasing number of people want to take parental leave in single days.
Sick leave is counted in hours but taken as Calendar days. In other words, the employee get the benefit of taking one and a half days off sick but it is only counted as one day (because of 12 hour shift). However, up until overtime rates were changed, NAS had to spend the equivalent of 3 days pay (1.5 x 2 T overtime) to cover it if on overtime. In relation to the 10.7%, the 12 hours sick as 1 calendar day obviously pushes it up rather than a normal 5 day worker whose calendar day would be 7.8 hours (39 hours / 5 days).
I don't agree with your second point on ORVs. The business and operational case as well as road traffic and H&S considerations arising from Officers using their own cars to respond has demonstrated that it is cheaper to do it this way than pay Officers travelling expenses (like the rest of the public sector) to use their own cars. The HSE does not pay road tax as State vehicles are exempt, purchase prices are cheaper (they obviously don't pay showroom prices when buying in bulk) and pay less for fuel. They also dont have to pay car insurance as they are covered by the State Claims Agency in the event of a claim. There is then the intangible service benefit of having access to Officers whom are not paid to be available. You might call it a quid pro quo arrangement. My understanding is the the Revenue Commissioners were asked to review the BIK rules and are all kosher as well. Have a read of the link above or do an FOI.
Regarding the Prime Time programme, they forgot to leave out that the poor individual driving from Donegal to Dublin to work was assigned to that role and did not receive any extra money or expenses. He travels at least 7 hours round trip as well as a days work and contactable en route and at night for NO extra pay. I can see a big queue for that "junket"
In relation to 5m, not sure how you come up with that figure as many ORVs are second line vehicles, ranging from about 2002-2007 for the most part. More modern vehicles are in the minority. Some of the fleet is well worn and probably worth about 3,000. Others could be worth up to 15000 on a resale. Even if you sold them all and raised, say 1m (unlikely), it is a once off figure. You still end up spending more on travelling expenses (these guys travel a lot around their large geographical areas to do their jobs). So you save nothing, in fact you spend more and loose the operational capacity of Officers out of hours. Officers for the most part earn less than the people they manage (again do an FOI)
Once of savings if any from selling cars would be a once of saving. You need 10m EVERY year, to pay wages.
The employees are usually rostered to work 12 hours, therefore you could hardly expect them to come in at 4pm on a sick day that would be nonsence and find it hard to believe it could be regarded as a benefit... especially if it is being used to skew the figures....
On that point the sick benefits for officers are twice that of normal employees that work shift on the road...
On my second point ...
You don't agree that the car issue (which I believe is a distant second concern to points raised in the programme) should be looked or audited t from an independent view and on individual basis even just to see if they are needed , used , cost effective or an expence that could be better used elsewhere for the greater good of the public......very interesting.
My basis for the 5 million figure is my own (fag box) calculation of 60 (or 70) cars x 50,000euro giving a life span of 5 years or 200,000klm = 3million
At A replacement factor one car per five every year that comes to 600,000euro per year just to stand still.
Equipment (60 x lets say 10,000euro per defib is 600,000euro) , running costs, fuel tyres and servicing & repairs
On call allowance for the inconvenience of having those cars $xxx,xxx ??
If I had a bigger fag box i'd keep going.....
Put it this way for simplicity if all those cars disappeared in the morning with the equipment how much would it cost to replace them ??0 -
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My understanding of BIK rules is that assistance with the costs of commuting to work is a BIK, and due for tax. It doesn't matter where a person chooses to live. If a person in Cork takes a job in Derry, then their costs in getting to Derry are their own affair.NonBeliever14 wrote: »<...>My understanding is the the Revenue Commissioners were asked to review the BIK rules and are all kosher as well. Have a read of the link above or do an FOI.
Regarding the Prime Time programme, they forgot to leave out that the poor individual driving from Donegal to Dublin to work was assigned to that role and did not receive any extra money or expenses. He travels at least 7 hours round trip as well as a days work and contactable en route and at night for NO extra pay. I can see a big queue for that "junket"<...>
That's my understanding of how BIK works.0 -
NonBeliever14 wrote: »CrackCrack30 Force Majeure, Parental, Carers and many other forms of leave are not counted as "sick leave". However, they do in many cases exacerbate the issue of shift dropping as Force Majeure is as short notice as sick leave and an increasing number of people want to take parental leave in single days.
Sick leave is counted in hours but taken as Calendar days. In other words, the employee get the benefit of taking one and a half days off sick but it is only counted as one day (because of 12 hour shift). However, up until overtime rates were changed, NAS had to spend the equivalent of 3 days pay (1.5 x 2 T overtime) to cover it if on overtime. In relation to the 10.7%, the 12 hours sick as 1 calendar day obviously pushes it up rather than a normal 5 day worker whose calendar day would be 7.8 hours (39 hours / 5 days).
I don't agree with your second point on ORVs. The business and operational case as well as road traffic and H&S considerations arising from Officers using their own cars to respond has demonstrated that it is cheaper to do it this way than pay Officers travelling expenses (like the rest of the public sector) to use their own cars. The HSE does not pay road tax as State vehicles are exempt, purchase prices are cheaper (they obviously don't pay showroom prices when buying in bulk) and pay less for fuel. They also dont have to pay car insurance as they are covered by the State Claims Agency in the event of a claim. There is then the intangible service benefit of having access to Officers whom are not paid to be available. You might call it a quid pro quo arrangement. My understanding is the the Revenue Commissioners were asked to review the BIK rules and are all kosher as well. Have a read of the link above or do an FOI.
Regarding the Prime Time programme, they forgot to leave out that the poor individual driving from Donegal to Dublin to work was assigned to that role and did not receive any extra money or expenses. He travels at least 7 hours round trip as well as a days work and contactable en route and at night for NO extra pay. I can see a big queue for that "junket"
In relation to 5m, not sure how you come up with that figure as many ORVs are second line vehicles, ranging from about 2002-2007 for the most part. More modern vehicles are in the minority. Some of the fleet is well worn and probably worth about 3,000. Others could be worth up to 15000 on a resale. Even if you sold them all and raised, say 1m (unlikely), it is a once off figure. You still end up spending more on travelling expenses (these guys travel a lot around their large geographical areas to do their jobs). So you save nothing, in fact you spend more and loose the operational capacity of Officers out of hours. Officers for the most part earn less than the people they manage (again do an FOI)
Once of savings if any from selling cars would be a once of saving. You need 10m EVERY year, to pay wages.
Secondly and last point from me - I do not want to paint every officer or car in the same light definitely there is a need for some individuals to have cars, but not all. if every regional head quarters had a compliment of 3 that would be 30-40. in the age of tele - confrencing ,email, Skype even.
Some management are great at what they do behind a desk, and should be left so to concentrate on same. Garda management do not bring home squads, Firemen do not bring home fire trucks to oppicite ends of the country & ..... Micheal O'Leary does not bring home a jet ( what a waste and innificent practice that would be in the private sector) .
Upper management should be ensuring that to the best of their ability the resources are in place to meet public demand..... they themselves should have no place in that equation.... its cringe worthy to here that the chief is on call....that to me says that his mind and focus is not where it should be.
All allowances such as on call ,shift and The Advanced paramedic allowance should be forfeited or at least reduced by a percentage when people decide to come off the road to a day office job..... this would leave an increased budget for those resources left on the frontline.
On your last point that I highlighted ......you can have a very simplistic view on something when you decide to.0 -
CrackCrack30 if you take hours off sick it should be 12 hours off your sick leave. That is tranparent, honest and fair. The taxpayer should not have to shoulder the additional cost of sick which has been one of the most justifiable public criticisms of the public sector.
Officers do not get double the allowance of sick leave. Prior to changes due on the 1st April next, staff got 3 months paid sick leave every year while Officers got 6 months full pay and six months half pay in a 4 year period. This is very simple information easily available. All sick leave benefit have effectively been halved
Audit of cars has already happened. Why do you think the HSE is comfortable defending their position on cars. Director General quoted the numbers on RTE, now a matter of public record
Cars are not worth 50000 and are not replaced every five years. Have you ever heard of straight line depreciation in accounting terms
Defibs (12 leads) are over 30k not 10k and the vast majority of cars don't have them They have a shockbox AED. Which Officers would carry in any event.
I have already explained the running costs. A cost benefit analysis demonstrated it is cheaper that paying mileage expenses. Do you know what public sector rates are?
Did you miss the part where I said Officers do not get any payments whatsoever, including on call allowances (unlike their counterparts in Fire Service and AGS)
What is you point about replacement, do you understand what benefit extending the life of a vehicle that has fully depreciated means
More importantly, do you understand what the purpose of the vehicles are? Have you read the procedures on hse.ie?
please do get a bigger fagbox, happy to keep answering questions, even if the information is freely available0 -
crackCrack30, given some the points you make, it is increasing clear you know very little about a service you are offering comment on. Officers do actually forfeit allowances, on call, shift, etc., etc. Yo continue to offer disparaging views on NAS but actually could have found out the answers first. The only exception is the AP allowance who continues to apply to an Officer whom continues to practice as an Advanced Paramedic.
Fire Services RSFOs can often have access to service vehicles while on call and actually do receive an on call allowance.
GCU, if you were re-assigned from Donegal to work in Dublin everyday, what would your expectations be?0 -
Please re-read my last 3-4 posts....
The bulk of what I have suggested is an independent review or audit on the efficiency and use of some the cars that are used by the Ambulance service.
I don't think all laundry should be washed in public. but It took the brave actions of a lowly member of control to highlight that there are grave short comings in the ambulance service provided on a daily basis which have concequences for patients and fall well bell below international standards as has been highlighted very publicly on primetime.
The dogs in the street know that we are under resourced
I'm not going to go over old ground here ..........if officers do not get an on call allowance why/should/do they take home the cars? as far as I'm concerned it is a benefit in kind to some people.0 -
crackcrack30 wrote: »Good Question..
& im not going to attempt to answer it because obviously it is a massive figure and could not be 'fixed or solved' here without considering full facts figures and individual cases, what I can do is provide some possible reasons that could be wrong , rejected or right. I don't work in HR or mgt.
Long term sick....... as in out for months , maternity, back injuries cancer ect as in any other job.
The environment (health)...... We are exposed to sick people and are going to be the first catch anything going.
Method of recording sick leave....... out sick tonight & off shift for 3 nights and then back in is recorded as 4 nights sick....!? madness.
Individual cases......... I believe in one region 3 people were responsible for something like 50% of the sick leave for whatever reason.
Stress ...... take for instance the workload attributed to the six people or three crews over the few nights reorded in Co Wexford... or limerick or Roscommon, limerick ect ......you can keep that up for a while but eventually something has to give. Nothing extra is ever provided not even on busy bank holiday Weekends.
Burnout ......same thing but with the trauma of RTC,s, cardiac arrests ,nuciance calls, rapes , assaults , thrown in on top of time measurement , delays ect, ect.. somethings going to give....& may contribute to sick leave....
and btw you are then expected to do this for the NAS into your late 60's.
Hey CrackCrack - you're taking all the abuse/questions and keeping the cool. Well done.
To rebut your points:
Long Term Sick: yes I agree but no different than any other job.
The Environment: I might have to challenge you there. You're as exposed as Gardai or Fire Brigade when treating these patients. While you have a range of patients, the gen. pop. that you meet are not more or less infectious than a person you meet in the shop. I can't see how you infection rates would be higher than a nurse or doctor treating sick patients for the entire working day every day. And again, they're sick rate is 3.5%.
Method of Recording: That is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Is there a reason for that. Surely, you are identified as being on sick leave for the rostered time and not your off-time. Again, surely management would 'fix' this issue if it meant making the absenteeism rates look smaller. More too it than what you say, I suggest.
Individual Cases: again, I agree with you. This is normal and no difference than any other staff member in the hospital system. Management have a number of tools available to them to address long term sick leave.
Stress: again, I don't doubt it. But, with respect, every job has its stresses. Yes, paramedics see serious stuff. But so do nurses staff, medics and surgeons. In fact, medical/surgical absenteeism rates are near 0.5%!!!...continually... check out health stat for those stats. These staff have continually high stress levels (as do people in finance jobs etc etc) - a surgeon naturally has patients lives in their hands every day. Nursing staff in ICU/ED is a particularly stressful job. As I say, paramedics see serious stuff but its not all serious ...falls, dickie ticker, a bit of COPD etc. Its not all cutting people out of cars - and I mean that with respect.
I think I've answered burnout.
My question is: if paramedics are highlighting how the lack of resources are directly contributing to deaths - why do they not realise that they are the important resource and that by them not showing up to work are letting their colleagues down and their patients and are in fact contributing directly to deaths/poor outcomes of patients.
Thanks for reviewing.0 -
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My expectation would be that I'd have to move to Dublin. I'd regard the idea that I'd have a 250 km journey to work as obviously impossible.NonBeliever14 wrote: »GCU, if you were re-assigned from Donegal to work in Dublin everyday, what would your expectations be?
Incidently, you seem a little confused about public service mileage. No-one gets paid mileage to commute to their assigned workplace or "headquarters". It's only paid to people who are on field duties, or who need to travel on business from their workplace to somewhere else.0 -
Hey CrackCrack - you're taking all the abuse/questions and keeping the cool. Well done.
To rebut your points:
Long Term Sick: yes I agree but no different than any other job.
The Environment: I might have to challenge you there. You're as exposed as Gardai or Fire Brigade when treating these patients. While you have a range of patients, the gen. pop. that you meet are not more or less infectious than a person you meet in the shop. I can't see how you infection rates would be higher than a nurse or doctor treating sick patients for the entire working day every day. And again, they're sick rate is 3.5%.
Method of Recording: That is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Is there a reason for that. Surely, you are identified as being on sick leave for the rostered time and not your off-time. Again, surely management would 'fix' this issue if it meant making the absenteeism rates look smaller. More too it than what you say, I suggest.
Individual Cases: again, I agree with you. This is normal and no difference than any other staff member in the hospital system. Management have a number of tools available to them to address long term sick leave.
Stress: again, I don't doubt it. But, with respect, every job has its stresses. Yes, paramedics see serious stuff. But so do nurses staff, medics and surgeons. In fact, medical/surgical absenteeism rates are near 0.5%!!!...continually... check out health stat for those stats. These staff have continually high stress levels (as do people in finance jobs etc etc) - a surgeon naturally has patients lives in their hands every day. Nursing staff in ICU/ED is a particularly stressful job. As I say, paramedics see serious stuff but its not all serious ...falls, dickie ticker, a bit of COPD etc. Its not all cutting people out of cars - and I mean that with respect.
I think I've answered burnout.
My question is: if paramedics are highlighting how the lack of resources are directly contributing to deaths - why do they not realise that they are the important resource and that by them not showing up to work are letting their colleagues down and their patients and are in fact contributing directly to deaths/poor outcomes of patients.
Thanks for reviewing.
Hi,
If you re read that post fully from the top.. I wasn't trying to defend the sick rate but rather try and shine some light on possibilities for the high figure
True on your first point but the sick tend to gather in A&E rather than shops garda stations or fire stations.. But I agree to a point.. Exposure and nights, fast food and poor manual handling all lend themselves to a unhealthy life style though..
Recording your off shift time as sick is stupid.
Abuse of the sick pay should be addressed and corrected asap....all up to and including losing benefits....yes all for that.
Deffo its not all guts and gore and I don't like always presenting it as such but a high number of calls for frontline ambulances are deemed life threatening and are responded to as such until managed...
The difference between Paras and in house hospital doctors & staff is that the genuine patients that require ambulatory care are provided packaged into A&E if you like, no disrespect to any other profession..
When I say packaged I don't mean always better , fixed or even diagnosed but there has a structured prossess started that usually encompasses a history of recent events & probable cause of illness, initial steps for stabilization are in place ,dangerous vitals are highlighted & the madness of the House, pub, disco , pitch, squat or road are left out side the door of A&E .
Paramedics go into action in anger several times a day and night sometimes not knowing what they are going to meet or see not even a code and sometimes with poor directions, ....... Our defence force /army may see action once or twice in their career .....It sounds dramatic I know but its true..... yes with experience and years the adrenaline and apprehension dosen't set in as quick but every serious call that dosen't turn out as well or fluid as you would like leaves a little scar or memory...
cant think of that term ..is it battle fatigue?
Your question is a good point also and those that abuse the system should be held to account but I cant answer for them.0 -
GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »My expectation would be that I'd have to move to Dublin. I'd regard the idea that I'd have a 250 km journey to work as obviously impossible.
Incidently, you seem a little confused about public service mileage. No-one gets paid mileage to commute to their assigned workplace or "headquarters". It's only paid to people who are on field duties, or who need to travel on business from their workplace to somewhere else.
That would be my thinking too tbh - way I look at it is that if you live in Donegal (nothing at all wrong with this) but the office is in Dublin - you've got the option of doing the commute from Donegal to Dublin each day - or moving to Dublin.
Normally its not the employers concern which option you go for - all they would care about - is that you come in and do the job your paid to do.
HOWEVER....
If its a case that NAS expect your man to commute up and down to Donegal each day - because they want him on call when off duty - for calls in Donegal - then I personally think THAT would be completely unreasonable.0 -
Hey CrackCrack - you're taking all the abuse/questions and keeping the cool. Well done.
To rebut your points:
Long Term Sick: yes I agree but no different than any other job.
The Environment: I might have to challenge you there. You're as exposed as Gardai or Fire Brigade when treating these patients. While you have a range of patients, the gen. pop. that you meet are not more or less infectious than a person you meet in the shop. I can't see how you infection rates would be higher than a nurse or doctor treating sick patients for the entire working day every day. And again, they're sick rate is 3.5%.
Thanks for reviewing.
Gotta remember paramedics spend maybe 30 minutes (shorter/longer in some cases) in a confined space with a patient, much more scope for getting sick also compared to a hospital environment i think.
Biggest problem with sick leave is that if one person calls in sick, in some stations and areas and depending on the crew left it may aswell be two people calling in sick. Sure sometimes one person can man an RRV but not always feasible and still an ambulance down0 -
As I outlined at the beginning of this thread, the Prime Time programme was built around superficial research of published media reports with the usual exploitation of grieving families to make "good TV" about another "public sector scandal".
No one on this thread has provided any commentary on the 99.9% of NAS calls that have not been reported about in the media.
The Director General of the HSE, alluded to the fact that their are internal processes (published on the HSE intranet). Anyone with concerns within the HSE can use this process. Industrial relations has taken a new turn with staff frustrated with their unions now resorting to "running to the media" rather than using established best practice processes.
The credibility of any whistle blower is subject to a single test, are their actions solely in the interest of the public good. If they have any personal axe to grind, grievance to pursue, gripe with management, etc., then the integrity of their actions must be subject to question. Most jurisdictions take the view that vexatious reporting undermines the validity of any whistleblower.
The PT programme had 3 whistleblowers, 2 former NAS, 1 of whom has sued his employer, 1 of whom tried everything to get out of the job and 1 whom is on sick leave (genuinely sick) but a big reputation of grievances. It must be asked whether or not the relationship between these individuals and NASRA is relevant. Did RTE Prime Time approach NASRA looking for whistleblowers? Is there any connectivity between the locations filmed, the locations where NASRA leaders work and areas where NASRA have complained about?
Half a story is no story. Another poor performance by PT. Not the first time in recent times either.0 -
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CGU if you believe you have grounds for "reasonable suspicion" about BIK liabilities, the Revenue Commissioners will be happy to receive your allegations.0
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Why, does no-one in there watch television?NonBeliever14 wrote: »CGU if you believe you have grounds for "reasonable suspicion" about BIK liabilities, the Revenue Commissioners will be happy to receive your allegations.
Incidently, can I remind you that I was actually correcting your incorrect understanding both of BIK and the purpose of public service travel expenses.
On another point, the programme seemed to suggest that the managers allocated these cars did handle a handful of calls over the period of a few months. Do trained paramedics have to attend at any fixed number of calls to be deemed to have retained their skill levels?
Or does in mean, in a handful of cases, the call might be answered by a manager who hasn't delivered emergency care on a daily basis for some time?0 -
Update on one of the Whistleblowers, according to his twitter and Facebook accounts, he appears to be complementing a Private Ambulance Operator who is pledging support to the save DFB campaign. Is all of this publicity a rouse to lobby for privatisation? The whistleblower is reported to have an interest in a business providing event medics, among other things. The Private Ambulance Operator has a history of suing the State for allowing DFB run services without going to tender as well as a failed case reported in the Sunday Independent today where they also appear to call for privatisation of the NAS Intermediate Care Service. Is this something Prime Time should investigate? Has RTE's Investigation Unit been used by possible vested interests to deliberately undermine public confidence with a view to opening the door to privatisation of the ambulance service. Have any of the other whistleblowers worked for either company. Will journalists investigate these matters now to rule out the possibility of any substance in these convenient sequence of coincidental events?0
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GCU, third time to post the link to the relevant documentation from the hse website. It should answer your questions about what Officers are supposed to use ORVs for.
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/
I am familiar with BIK rules and am also aware of regulations regarding public sector mileage rates. All public sector employees are entitled to claim mileage expenses when away from their normal work location. NAS Officers for the most part, have significant geographical responsibilities and undertake a lot of travel as part of their roles. Have you every wondered, or better still asked, if the Officer in Donegal is based in Donegal or Dublin or are you just assuming what you say on TV is a full and accurate account of the situation, i.e. a balanced report?
As a concerned citizen regarding waste of public monies, are you really going to hope Revenue Commissioners watched the tele rather than report your concerns?0 -
NonBeliever14 wrote: »GCU, third time to post the link to the relevant documentation from the hse website. It should answer your questions about what Officers are supposed to use ORVs for.
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/
I am familiar with BIK rules and am also aware of regulations regarding public sector mileage rates. All public sector employees are entitled to claim mileage expenses when away from their normal work location. NAS Officers for the most part, have significant geographical responsibilities and undertake a lot of travel as part of their roles. Have you every wondered, or better still asked, if the Officer in Donegal is based in Donegal or Dublin or are you just assuming what you say on TV is a full and accurate account of the situation, i.e. a balanced report?
As a concerned citizen regarding waste of public monies, are you really going to hope Revenue Commissioners watched the tele rather than report your concerns?
Id normally have expected that someone who has their office and normal place of work/operations in Dublin - would be classed as been based there.
Of course its possible the chap is based in Donegal - but it really doesn't make sense for this to be the case of the normal place of work is in Dublin - and the employer has premises in Dublin.
If the guy actually has to go back to Donegal to provide cover - doesn't this reinforce the idea that the service NEEDS more resources
Tbh - looking back - I do think that there are gaps in the info in the Prime Time programme.
It seemed to me that they spend 10 days or more in both Roscommon and Wexford (I got the impression that it was 10/15 days etc each in the two locations but not sure).
But it seemed to me - that they presented the data/footage for one shift at each location.
Id love to have known what went on for the other days that they didn't mention.
Because they didn't mention them at all - no call volumes, no percentages of calls that met targets on the other days - im left wondering as a viewer if those days were days when the performance of the Ambulance service didn't exactly suit what prime time wanted to show viewers.
The other thing im wondering - is okay - right - they picked locations where Ambulances would have more difficulty/less of a chance of meeting the targets.
What id like to have seen is for them to have a look at Ambulances in places like Cork City where youd expect more success in achieving targets.
Would have been nice if we could see Ambulances meeting the targets - and you could then look at WHY the Ambulances met the targets in some cases.
Could have been learning there - and a more progressive debate.0 -
Snowing us with stuff isn't a replacement for making your point. The point is whether expensive service-related vehicles have been allocated to managers to undertake long-distance commutes, notionally on the basis of them being on call, in a context where they are rarely actually used for calls.NonBeliever14 wrote: »GCU, third time to post the link to the relevant documentation from the hse website. It should answer your questions about what Officers are supposed to use ORVs for.
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/
I'm not making any assumptions about the programme; I'm just looking for substantial responses to the issues raised. For instance, the HSE have published some comment to the effect that the vehicles in question respond to about half-a-dozen calls a day. How many vehicles? Good use of resources? I suspect the questions will persist until substantial answers are given.NonBeliever14 wrote: »I am familiar with BIK rules and am also aware of regulations regarding public sector mileage rates. All public sector employees are entitled to claim mileage expenses when away from their normal work location. NAS Officers for the most part, have significant geographical responsibilities and undertake a lot of travel as part of their roles. Have you every wondered, or better still asked, if the Officer in Donegal is based in Donegal or Dublin or are you just assuming what you say on TV is a full and accurate account of the situation, i.e. a balanced report?
Can I point out that I'm making absolutely no assumptions about whether managers have been given cars to commute in. You actually stated that someone had been "re-assigned" from Donegal to Dublin. If someone is assigned to a particular location, then they aren't due travel expenses to get there.
The point at issue is clear enough. I'm not sure that the HSE have yet robustly responded to this point.
Yes, I'm happy enough to believe that at least one of the thousands of staff working for the Revenue will have seen the programme. I'd also expect they'll have a press office that will pick up relevant media reports like this one:NonBeliever14 wrote: »As a concerned citizen regarding waste of public monies, are you really going to hope Revenue Commissioners watched the tele rather than report your concerns?http://www.herald.ie/news/hse-urged-to-reveal-if-staff-claim-mileage-30137181.html
<...>"I want to know if staff using these vehicles are claiming mileage," said John Kidd, chairman of the Irish Fire and Emergency Service Association.
"It's totally wrong that these vehicles which cost millions to the taxpayer are being used in this way while the ambulance fleet is breaking down."
REVENUE
The HSE could not answer the question on whether mileage was being claimed for the use of rapid response vehicles, but said during the period January to March 2014 the vehicles were used in 629 emergency call-outs, 252 of which were outside working hours.
Mr Kidd also said the national ambulance service should be reported to the Revenue to see if benefit-in-kind should be paid on the rapid response vehicles if HSE staff are using them as personal transport.<...>0 -
GCU, I am not snowing you with stuff. I have provided a link to a short document that details what ORVs are used for, and how authorisation is governed. Anyone seeking to debate this issue, without reviewing this document, is doing so from a ill informed or mis informed perspective.
Such a public response might be predictable given the anti HSE spin regurgitated by the media on a daily basis. However, anyone working for NAS should now better, unless their head is stuck in the sand.
If you do not know or accept what the ORVs are used for or attempt to understand the intangible operational risk mitigation benefits to the service, you are unlikely to receive substantial responses.
In relation to Mr. Kidd, frankly, because this individual suggests some wrong doing and the Herald blindly, without attempting any verification publishes such allegations, does not for a momnet make it true. Blatant politicisation by someone running for public office. If either he or the Hearld really wanted an answer, rather than point scoring through the media, they could submit an FOI. However, not unlike a TD with a PQ, there is no political or HSE bashing value in asking a straight question through a statutory mechanism. I hope the HSE does not stoop to the level of responding to such a stupid question that is effectively, collective defamation against a group of public sector employees whom are fully compliant with public pay policy.0 -
If you click on the link, what you actually see is a list of eleven links, each of which opens a page with further links.NonBeliever14 wrote: »GCU, I am not snowing you with stuff. I have provided a link to a short document that details what ORVs are used for, and how authorisation is governed. Anyone seeking to debate this issue, without reviewing this document, is doing so from a ill informed or mis informed perspective.
You may want us to look at this document:
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/use_of_official_vehicles.pdf
And this document
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/3/nas/educationcompetencyassurance/rptspoliciesandprocedures/Fuel_Cards.pdf
But I'm not sure - because, whether intentionally or not, the link you provided is to a raft of policy documents.
Now, all those documents tell me is that someone taking a vehicle for the night must be on call, and anyone issued with a fuel card can only use it to put fuel in the NAS vehicle that they're using. You'll appreciate, the assertion made in the programme is that NAS have effectively issued vehicles as company cars, enabling some staff to make lengthy commutes to work. The programme asserted that, despite being on call, these staff were rarely given tasks.
What I understand is that the HSE state that vehicles in this category answered about 600 calls so far this year, 250 of which were out-of-hours. That's around 6 or 7 calls a day, two to three of which were out-of-hours. There seem to be about 100 vehicles in this group - about 50 ORVs and 50 RRVs. This suggests that, on any given night, 97% of them are not called out.NonBeliever14 wrote: »If you do not know or accept what the ORVs are used for or attempt to understand the intangible operational risk mitigation benefits to the service, you are unlikely to receive substantial responses.
Maybe there is some operational benefit to that. But it seems like quite an expensive way to provide a marginal level of contingency to a service that receives a couple of thousand calls a day.
Sure, no-one is saying whether its true or not. I'm just confident that an organisation as well-resourced as the Revenue Commissioners won't have missed the story. You'll recall, that was the point at issue.NonBeliever14 wrote: »In relation to Mr. Kidd, frankly, because this individual suggests some wrong doing and the Herald blindly, without attempting any verification publishes such allegations, does not for a momnet make it true.0 -
Gotta remember paramedics spend maybe 30 minutes (shorter/longer in some cases) in a confined space with a patient, much more scope for getting sick also compared to a hospital environment i think.
Biggest problem with sick leave is that if one person calls in sick, in some stations and areas and depending on the crew left it may aswell be two people calling in sick. Sure sometimes one person can man an RRV but not always feasible and still an ambulance down
Hi
Thanks for that. I don't agree with your first point I'm afraid. While it may be true that sometimes paramedics may sometimes be in a confined space with some patients who may have an infections. Its not true to say that a nurse or doctor dealing with a ward of 30-35 patients who are all sick and in very regular close contact that would amount to much longer than 30 minutes with a patient in an ambulance. And as I say, there may be some truth in your point, it doesn't account for a medical absenteeism rate of 0.5% and a paramedic rate of 10.75%.0 -
I think this thread has ran its course , weather the whole primetime debate /investigation is a lesson learned ,dismissed or forgotten who knows ...but nobody can ever say that the concerns of some were not highlighted in a very public way, and I'd be surprised if this wasn't referred to in years to come either as a line in the sand or a comparison.. ..
For myself the elephant in the room at the moment is the thought or impression some have that the first response.... be it a responder, a fire appliance, a car or a GP will ever quell the high profile and traumatic cases where a person is in need of Transport / stretcher ambulance for urgent removal to definitive care which are our Hospitals/A&E departments.
In several of the cases outlined on the programme and in the media over the past year or so there was a first responder on scene but it didn't put a lid on the justified concerns raised about a delay in availability of transport vehicles.......without naming/singling individual cases directly
Donegal - GP's and nurse on scene I believe.
Mayo - Fire service & GP'S on scene.
Dublin /Tallagh - Fire appliance on scene.0 -
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