Des Hanlon Memorial, March 23 2014, Carlow

killalanerr

begs the qustion what was he doing in it!?

Max_Charger

Brian McCrytsal @AquablueCC won 2014 Des Hanlon, Paidi O'Brien 2nd, Ryan Sherlock 3rd

maloner

Quite the race. Did the A3 race and lasted till about half way up the third climb of the lap. Wasn't positioned that well going into the first climb after the turn at castlecomer and had to go way into the red to stay in touch. Was maybe mid bunch, but with 140 in the bunch, that meant a lot of people ahead of me. Stayed in touch with a group off the back of the main group and got back in on the second climb but never really recovered and soon I was out the back door. Did the second lap with about a dozen others for training but got a puncture in pretty much exactly the same spot I had been dropped the previous lap! Had hoped to last longer really, but no complaints.

maloner

Congratulations to Eddie Dunbar too. Some performance.

fixie fox

killalanerr wrote: »

begs the qustion what was he doing in it!?

Ya - he has to ride away on his own now in a lot of races to get a decent race in. How can he compete at world level with that craic.

maloner

fixie fox wrote: »

Ya - he has to ride away on his own now in a lot of races to get a decent race in. How can he compete at world level with that craic.

Ah here, he coulda waited. Him and the many dozens of others that dropped me

fixie fox

maloner wrote: »

Ah here, he coulda waited. Him and the many dozens of others that dropped me

Maybe he's just anti- social. Who was best of the rest?

joe50

group of juniors rolled in a few minutes afterward..

o'loughlin and *shanahan were the first two i spotted..

dylan o'brien was also in there

killalanerr

Full results up now http://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/full-results-of-all-races-at-todays-des-hanlon-memorial-in-carlow/

thinks too much

Aw pics from today's Des Hanlon

manwithaplan

Finished in what was left of the bunch. Completely missed the break going but they held off a strong chase on the run in. Didn't realise there was a roundabout on the run-in and stayed a few wheels too far back - wouldn't have made the places anyway.

Thoroughly enjoyed it - there was a real sense of occasion about it and the legs were good. Enjoyed going toe-to-toe with the juniors. I will have to add descending to the list of things I need to work on.

I was surprised how many made it to the finish in the front group. There's a lot of strong riders out there.

I'm now looking forward to years of watching Mr. Dunbar. Sign me up to the fan club.

wav1

fixie fox wrote: »

Ya - he has to ride away on his own now in a lot of races to get a decent race in. How can he compete at world level with that craic.

Im sure he will be put in to plenty of A1 races closer to the time[its still over 6 months away].Also very easy to forget that he is 17 yrs old with a leaving cert ahead of him,plus he was racing internationally last 2 weekends in Belgium [junior only race win] and wales [pro company]12th.System messed up too many 17 yr olds in the past and imo they must be let develope naturally and gradually.short term pain for long time gain.

fixie fox

wav1 wrote: »

Im sure he will be put in to plenty of A1 races closer to the time[its still over 6 months away].Also very easy to forget that he is 17 yrs old with a leaving cert ahead of him,plus he was racing internationally last 2 weekends in Belgium [junior only race win] and wales [pro company]12th.System messed up too many 17 yr olds in the past and imo they must be let develope naturally and gradually.short term pain for long time gain.

On the other hand, maybe everybody is entitled to ride in a category appropriate to their ability if that is what they want to do.

killalanerr

i do agree with the theory wav but their are exceptions to every rule . What did he get out of rideing round on his todd today. By the way just is case any gets me wrong i think he is unreal what a rider

albert kidd

do yee lads reckon eddie would tear up the A1 if put into it in the morning?

killalanerr

Im not sure if he would but he would of got more out of it than ripping the a3 apart imo

wav1

fixie fox wrote: »

On the other hand, maybe everybody is entitled to ride in a category appropriate to their ability if that is what they want to do.
Thats the same thing as saying if a 16 or 17 yr old gaa player is good enough throw him on to the county team.How long would that 16 or 17 yr old last.I do agree totally that he is an exceptional talent,but there have been lots of them before thrown in to things they weren't ready for.Oddly enough there is one of those back racing now for the past month,that was one of those really talented 18 yr olds.He's now 26 and didn't sit on a start line for eight years.I have seen Eddie racing since he was barely able to fit on a bike,and am as eager as anyone to see the end product,but lets give him time.

wav1

albert kidd wrote: »

do yee lads reckon eddie would tear up the A1 if put into it in the morning?

Mightn't rip it up,but would be right in the mix.

albert kidd

wav1 wrote: »

Mightn't rip it up,but would be right in the mix.

unreal for his age that cycling folk like yourself think this wav.

im showing my ignorance here..ive an interest in the sport and go watch a few races ect..but how did the likes of nicholas roche rank along side dunbar when they were coming through?..have we seen anything like him before coming through the ranks?

wav1

Another piece of useless infomation on the Eddie debate.
Cycling Ireland in their wisdon abolished the Junior category altogether
for the 2010 and 2011 seasons and basically juniors were anything from A1 to A4 and nobody even knew they were juniors or not,and if you trawl the junior riders from that era,very few of them have moved on with a couple of exceptions.

MichealD

Agree with Wav on this one. Too many talented youngsters over raced and raced at too high a grade too soon in the past and disappeared from sport.

I'd suggest Mark Scanlon was the last junior that showed such promise. Hopefully Eddie will take a break for his exams soon and come back even stronger in the summer!

wav1

albert kidd wrote: »

unreal for his age that cycling folk like yourself think this wav.

im showing my ignorance here..ive an interest in the sport and go watch a few races ect..but how did the likes of nicholas roche rank along side dunbar when they were coming through?..have we seen anything like him before coming through the ranks?

Mark Scanlon was World Jun R/R Champion in 1998 and was really special.I've said it before,that we had a really good Jun team at the Worlds in Zolder Belgium in 2002 [Nicolas Roche,Paudi O Brien,Theo Hardwick,Andrew Mc Quaid and a couple more whose names escape me].They all rode well that day and with a bit of luck could have got medals.

albert kidd

wav1 wrote: »

Mark Scanlon was World Jun R/R Champion in 1998 and was really special.I've said it before,that we had a really good Jun team at the Worlds in Zolder Belgium in 2002 [Nicolas Roche,Paudi O Brien,Theo Hardwick,Andrew Mc Quaid and a couple more whose names escape me].They all rode well that day and with a bit of luck could have got medals.

cheers wav..i appreciate that post.

my view would be put him into A1 now..but reading back up the thread i can now see why burn out ect can play a part.

still its great to see a talent such as this lad on the scene..hopefully he goes on to great things and gives us all a reason to be screaming at teles in the not to distant future.

killalanerr

wav What age was Sam B when he rode his first ras ?

MichealD

Sam was born in October 1990. Rode Ras in 2009 ( 1 stage win)

wav1

MichealD wrote: »

Sam was born in October 1990. Rode Ras in 2009 ( 1 stage win)

correct..18yrs and 7 months old i think

Quigs Snr

I raced against Sam, Lavery and others as juniors. None could do, or did do what Dunbar has been doing in these races. He's on another level. Those others though were involved in more tactical racing, breakaways, sprint finishes etc.. and I wonder if Dunbar will miss out on that unless he gets at least a few races like those he did on the continent under his belt where there's a bit of a challenge involved.

Hope he keeps his head on now, stays out of the pub and stays away from the women until he's at least 35.

doozerie

The A4 race was notable for the fact that it was stopped at about the 20km mark due to so many riders sitting out on the wrong side of double solid white lines (at its worst there were riders 2 and 3 abreast out there). The commissaire spoke of one rider in particular who he said had missed a car by "a couple of inches", I believe he mentioned the rider's number though I didn't hear that bit myself. Somebody yelled that the rider in question should be pulled out then, but if he was disqualified then I didn't see it, and of the people I spoke with about it later none of them saw any rider pulled out either. If he really wasn't kicked off the race then it seems silly to have stopped the race to simply issue another warning of "We'll disqualify you next time. Really. We mean it this time". A rider behaving like that is a danger to everyone and gets the sport a bad name, enough of the warnings already, just kick them out of the race - please!

On the other hand, the stop worked in my favour. I was feeling rubbish up to that point but felt an awful lot better when we resumed a few minutes later. Then the hills started and I was still feeling good and thinking that I might well be in there at the end. Until I punctured at about the 50km mark. I proceeded to turn the air blue with a vocal expression of my disappointment, I was not happy. I remained unhappy as the valve core of my replacement tube insisted on unthreading itself each time I inflated it. Cue some more colourful language.

I wasn't the only unhappy creature though, from a farm about 100 metres away (the only sign of habitation as far as the eye could see) came the sounds of some very angry dogs, they sounded a lot like the cyclist-devouring kind. And they sounded particularly hungry. They were accompanied by the sounds of the walls of a trailer being kicked to bits, it sounded a lot like a very angry bull, the cyclist-goring type. It reminded me of a typical scene/soundtrack from far too many horror films, a scene which usually doesn't end well for the poor innocent hiker/driver/cyclist depicted. Despite the motivation, it was the slowest tube replacement ever.

I enjoyed the race though, for as long as it lasted, it was tough going that's for sure. The day started on an a curios note, on entering the sign-on building the first thing I heard was one man saying to another "Would ya have a plunger?". But it has ended well with my sitting down, still in one piece, to watch a recording of Milan-San Remo, followed by eating freshly cooked pancakes at midnight. Not a bad way to round off the weekend.

jimzy

My first attempt at the Des, horribly painful! Brilliant route, very well marshalled and safe racing all day. Found it impossible to make my way up through the 150 ish A3 bunch so was poorly positioned when the climbing started after castlecomer.

Got up over the first few climbs ok, felt good and made some inroads into the bunch but let a gap appear on one of the descents and couldn't close it - so was dropped for the day. The descents were particularly fast today I thought.

Still, a super race, great workout, well done to Carlow CC and all involved. I just need to loose another 5kg and double up on the training now for the rest of the season.....

B82Eng

First Des completed and I survived to tell the tale (my 39-25 got me round, just about).

What a fantastic race, it has it all, good roads climbs descents scenery marshalling road markings sense of occasion and even ... weather. Big BIG congratulations and thank you to all at Carlow CC it truly is one of the greats and a credit to all involved.

The A4 race was unfortunately spoilt a little by the stoppage outside Castlecomer. Was up near front, with a slight split in the group after the screw was turned on the previous drag and feeling good when we got the hook. Started to feel terrible once stopped and suddenly needed the loo. Got around the sharp left onto first climb ok but my brain was writing cheques my legs couldnt cash. Fell out the back door and the group splintered massively in the blink of an eye. Personally ... I blame the Lucan GP the day before hand for my pathetic attempt at climbing, thats my story anyway haha.

All in all, a really great day, a tough tough yet brilliant race. See ye next year.

smurphy29

Tough race, and one I didn't finish. Some in the A3 may have seen my ride into the ditch just at the foot of the second climb... and if they did I'm sure it looked pretty comical. A group of us had just chased to close a small gap that had opened behind the lead group on the first climb and we finally closed it just as the road started to go up again. It was a kind of fast chute where it suddenly ramps up at speed and I was just a bit too excited to fully close the gap and came in at too much speed just as the pace dropped in the bunch and the gradient went up... the road was full and there was nowhere to go but the ditch.

Soft landing, bike fine etc., but the adrenaline just drained out of me and the willingness to suffer disappearde completely, so I pootled around the rest of the route and watched the A4 and ladies races rfom the top of the last hill.

Great race, well done everyone who organised it and of course Eddie Dunbar. Have to chime in and ask how much he can get from riding away so easily from the bunch. Surely if he was in A1 he would at least have to emply some sort of strategic thinking and improve his racecraft, which can't be benefiting in any way from being able to ride away so easily.

maloner

A general discussion on Juniors in A3 is good I think, but discussing one individual at length in this forum can't be helpful to that individual. All this discussion about one guy would presumably put unhelpful pressure on them in the future.

I don't know any of these juniors btw, just making an observation.

fortis

"Hope he keeps his head on now, stays out of the pub and stays away from the women until he's at least 35"

Ha, jaysus he is a young lad he has to have some life too!

An unreal talent

I agree and disagree with a lot of what is posted here

I agree that juniors shouldn't be burnt out etc. But in fairness like others have pointed out what's the point in this lad doing 100K time trials week in week out? It's obviously he can probably lay down 300+ watts for a couple of hours (unreal) but what is he learning tactically? And there is always the danger he will get a swelled head and spit the dummy when he does have to mix it with the big boys and doesn't have it all his own way

Should there be a rule that any junior amassing say 30+ points moves up?

Also I would say that A3 cat is now the worst of worlds (apart from A2). With super juniors and super vets, you have to be very talented to even hang in. With result that a lot I think have given up going to races like this. Is that right? Shouldn't people be allowed compete on a fair level (I was also argue that any vet, even 50+ who is capable of winning A3 races should also be promoted. I would say this is a form of "moral doping" (they know they are good enough to trounce most A3's and will sit there indefinitely collecting pots and points) but if they have to stoop this low to win a race and reclaim past glory...)

It's an argument that seems to be going around in circles with no resolution. Seems CI only care about the high performance stuff and couldn't give a hoot about the grassroots who coincidentally pay their €150 licence and keep the whole show on the road...If they did they would work to rectify the obvious anomalies.

The argument about GAA (that wav1 put) is not valid either, those are team sports and one individual usually does not dominate proceedings where as cycling at this amateur level is mostly an individual pursuit (at A2/1 tends to be more a team affair).

Only solution for "regular" A3's - don't bother with these races paying for petrol and cost of entry, especially the "classics", let the juniors slug it out amongst themselves, or as in this case let ED ride a 100K TT

ht9zni1gs28crp

An A3+ section? Run at same time? Just extra points to unplaced A3 stock entrants?

Inquitus

Maybe a fairer solution would be to give Vet A2's the option to downgrade annually to A3 in the off season, and force any who get the points during a season to upgrade to A2.

fortis

Race organisers won't even run a separate A2 race usually (which is why it is such a toxic category, they always get landed with the A1's except for the likes of Gorey where A1's are excluded)

There is no need for A3+, if proper promotion is taking place the A2 ranks would be bigger anyway (and A3 smaller and more fairly distributed). And then a separate A2 race could take place (and A1).

Any talented junior would be promoted same as everyone else (albeit perhaps after amassing twice the points at a lower level, hence avoiding "burn out")

Everyone knows this is the way it should be

Pawlie

albert kidd wrote: »

do yee lads reckon eddie would tear up the A1 if put into it in the morning?

He already has a few times last year,just look at his results,he was always in the breakaway and I think his worst results was a top 6 in Ras Clar with them and imo that was due him not having the gears for the sprint,

Junior

The thing is with a category or a rule it has to cater for all, you can't just legislate for one talented rider. What would be in CI's best interest is to make sure there's a place for Eddie to go forward into - (eg no Irish Squad in the Rás anymore) make sure that the support system is there for Eddie and future riders going forward to be a success. It's also incumbent on CI to make sure that Eddie's success isn't a flash in the pan, I know everyone isn't born with a talent to ride a bike, but if some 14 year old or even a 16 year old see's what he's doing and takes up the sport because of him then I'd be delighted.

joe50

fortis wrote: »

Race organisers won't even run a separate A2 race usually (which is why it is such a toxic category, they always get landed with the A1's except for the likes of Gorey where A1's are excluded)

There is no need for A3+, if proper promotion is taking place the A2 ranks would be bigger anyway (and A3 smaller and more fairly distributed). And then a separate A2 race could take place (and A1).

Any talented junior would be promoted same as everyone else (albeit perhaps after amassing twice the points at a lower level, hence avoiding "burn out")

Everyone knows this is the way it should be

indeed, if promoters can get the numbers to make it viable, they'll run the races...

Chips Lovell

When I started racing back in 2009 or so, there weren't many juniors on the scene. It's changed massively since then and we have a thriving junior category with lots of young talent coming up and some strong junior teams. I think that's brilliant to see and the future of the sport in this country depends on that. I'm fairly convinced that the current setup has a lot to do with that.

I've been party to some discussion about junior racing at a few CI AGMs and people whose opinions I'd really respect such as Martin O'Loughlin and Conor McGrane have convinced me that keeping them in A3 is the best course. It helps prevent them from getting burned out through over-racing against strong seniors. And they can still get special dispensation to ride higher category races when preparing for certain events. Best of both worlds really.

I'm an A3, I've no problem with racing against the juniors. And judging by the huge field we had yesterday, I reckon most A3s don't either. I went into that race knowing full well that the juniors would more than likely rip it up and I was still happy to pay my money and pin a number on.

smurphy29

I think that's fair Vlad, but what I think most people are talking about is just having that bit of flexibility in the rules to allow for someone like Eddie, who is obviously far too good for A3 to the point where it seems pretty obvous he'd get more out of A1/2, as he can't be learning any racing smarts from doing 100k time trials.

I think fortis' point about A2 is right. It's a wasted category and if it existed in its own right, it would probably allow the super-juniors a more natural home as well as 'normalising' A3. I guess the problem is getting the numbers for separate A1 & 2 races, and the numbers aren't helped by the blockade caused by the juniors in A3 hoovering up the points... looks like a vicious cycle.

Chips Lovell

There is already flexibility in the system. Cycling Ireland's development coach can and do get dispensation for juniors to compete in A1/A2 races.

Peterx

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There is already flexibility in the system. Cycling Ireland's development coach can and do get dispensation for juniors to compete in A1/A2 races.

The one piece of flexibility that would help further would be separate points tallies for juniors and A3 riders.

In any race report I read the very capable organisers are clearly able to spot unplaced juniors, women, A2's and so would be able to spot unplaced A3's.

Having the juniors ride A3 is clearly working very well and chapeau and well done to those in charge of the decision and the juniors.

The part that rankles is that A3 riders don't get points even when they are the first A3 rider home as 6 or 8 juniors may finish ahead and take all the points.

fondriest

There is something wrong with a system that allows the top 8 juniors in 2013 to amass 1100 points between them without any promotion . Even if it allowed promotion to A2 after 50 or 60 points it would make a difference. But I do think the solution as wav1 has said many times is to let the A3 riders score points seperatly from the juniors , surely this would have seen another bunch of lad promoted to A2 and strenghten that catagory.
If it stays as it is they will have to start giving out a first unplaced A3 prize in a3 races.

smurphy29

Peterx wrote: »

The one piece of flexibility that would help further would be separate points tallies for juniors and A3 riders.

In any race report I read the very capable organisers are clearly able to spot unplaced juniors, women, A2's and so would be able to spot unplaced A3's.

Having the juniors ride A3 is clearly working very well and chapeau and well done to those in charge of the decision and the juniors.

The part that rankles is that A3 riders don't get points even when they are the first A3 rider home as 6 or 8 juniors may finish ahead and take all the points.

I know Pawlie and others have put together reasonable counter-arguments against this, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes. Sure, if guys can't stay with the juniors, chances are they won't be able to stay with McCrystal, Shaw, or whoever either, but my understanding is CI wants to get more guys through the grades to have larger fields in the big races, and who knows, maybe even ultimately a proper A2 category.

Plus, it would actually make for better, not worse, racing. Take the Cycleways Cup in Navan. Eight juniors got up the road and the race turned into a semi-sportif as the points were gone (notwithstanding them bringing them the wrong way and all that). If there were points for unplaced A3s there would have been plenty of incentive to race hard and get a break up the road regardless of what the super-juniors were doing.

Chips Lovell

It was raised at the 2012 AGM and what we were told then was that it wasn't technically feasible to award all points to A3s. I think what was said was that it could be done at some races but not all. Yes, awarding the points to the A3s only makes sense but they can't seem to do it at the moment.

Having said that, anyone who does want to go up to A2 could have taken out an A2 licence at the start of this year and last year. I suspect they'll keep that in place again next year.

fondriest

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It was raised at the 2012 AGM and what we were told then was that it wasn't technically feasible to award all points to A3s. I think what was said was that it could be done at some races but not all. Yes, awarding the points to the A3s only makes sense but they can't seem to do it at the moment.

Having said that, anyone who does want to go up to A2 could have taken out an A2 licence at the start of this year and last year. I suspect they'll keep that in place again next year.

I would rather earn an A2 licence than tick a box on a licence form to get it .

morana

interesting to note the 1st and 3rd in the A1 race both use the Low Carb high Fat diet...

manwithaplan

I tend to defer to those who know more than me about these things. If they say A3 is the place for juniors, then I have no problem with that. In Leinster this year the juniors haven't been ripping it up but the Munster crop are a different story entirely. I'm no supervet but I have been doing fine in the Leinster races this year and have got into the points a couple of times in races with a good representation of juniors.

Yesterday at the DH was an eye opener though - the Munster young lads are fantastic and it was great to mix it with them. At the same time, I think I would be struggling to get a look in at the Munster races.

To be honest, I wouldn't be getting too upset about points in that I'm not sure I would be in any hurry to move up to A2. I can understand people giving out about the lack of prizes though.

ht9zni1gs28crp

morana wrote: »

interesting to note the 1st and 3rd in the A1 race both use the Low Carb high Fat diet...

Is this true? I used LCHF to drop the weight but now eating normally....would be interesting to know their usage of it now especially prep for racing....