Des Hanlon Memorial, March 23 2014, Carlow

wav1

morana wrote: »

Move over Jack...easier said than done. in fairness, and I know you were jesting, Jack is in favour of anything that makes the sport better.

again I say it I was heartened to see GMCI post here but would like an official CI presence to take note and discuss at board meetings etc.

Fat chance ''they dont look at these type of forums'' LOL

ragazzo

morana wrote: »

Move over Jack...easier said than done. in fairness, and I know you were jesting, Jack is in favour of anything that makes the sport better.

again I say it I was heartened to see GMCI post here but would like an official CI presence to take note and discuss at board meetings etc.

I probably should use smileys sometimes!

slow

With all the top juniors riding either the Tour of the North or Tour of South Limburg, it'll be interesting if the A3s make an impression on the Gorey.

And if they do, and get upgraded, it'll be even more interesting to follow their progress in the coming months against the big boys...

Peterx

slow wrote: »

With all the top juniors riding either the Tour of the North or Tour of South Limburg, it'll be interesting if the A3s make an impression on the Gorey.

And if they do, and get upgraded, it'll be even more interesting to follow their progress in the coming months against the big boys...

The current system of combining A1 and A2 does appear to make winning very difficult for A2 riders - but at least they get to race for their unplaced A2 points.

morana

Peterx wrote: »

The current system of combining A1 and A2 does appear to make winning very difficult for A2 riders - but at least they get to race for their unplaced A2 points.

A2 is not a category its entry fodder. Aside from Gorey, Charleville and???? whats the point being an a2?

niceonetom

Peterx wrote: »

The current system of combining A1 and A2 does appear to make winning very difficult for A2 riders - but at least they get to race for their unplaced A2 points.

There's no such thing as "unplaced A2 points". Cash, yes. Points, no.

It's great.

niceonetom

morana wrote: »

A2 is not a category its entry fodder. Aside from Gorey, Charleville and???? whats the point being an a2?

Kanturk, Newry, Rás Mayo... there might be a few others.

We need a break from getting hosed by the same 10 A1s.

It's a bit like the A3 situation with the juniors but at least A2 have some races without the same lads hoovering up all the points with no possibility of being upgraded out of the race.

buffalo

morana wrote: »

A2 is not a category its entry fodder. Aside from Gorey, Charleville and???? whats the point being an a2?

I actually think A2 is ideal - racing against the A1s to help bring the legs on, but still being valid for pretty much every stage race out there (including the Rás), where you can give the A3s a kicking.

lennymc

buffalo wrote: »

I actually think A2 is ideal - racing against the A1s to help bring the legs on, but still being valid for pretty much every stage race out there (including the Rás), where you can give the A3s a kicking.

I'd be perfectly happy if (when) I get to A2.

ragazzo

buffalo wrote: »

I actually think A2 is ideal - racing against the A1s to help bring the legs on, but still being valid for pretty much every stage race out there (including the Rás), where you can give the A3s a kicking.

Most A2's only race against the A1's for a few kilometres. Then the break of A1 riders forms and heads off leaving the majority of A2 riders racing against each other for the unplaced pots.
Maybe 1st three, sometimes six, unplaced receive a prize but no CI points so unless they make that break then they will make no inroads towards an upgrade. Thus A1 remains a very small active racing category and relies completely on A2 cooperation to survive. That is why A2 is combined with A1.

The only real option for many A2 riders to earn ranking points is in the stage races where A1 riders are prohibited. However, many of those available points are mopped up by the juniors.
Hence the problem with category sizes and apparent lack of or limited movement.

Morana is correct to a certain extent in his previous post on this thread.

buffalo

ragazzo wrote: »

The only real option for many A2 riders to earn ranking points is in the stage races where A1 riders are prohibited. However, many of those available points are mopped up by the juniors.

Firstly, the A2s also get handicaps over the A1s in certain races. And secondly - if you've made it to A2, you're able to do battle with the juniors pretty well. Racing should always be challenging. How about we start introducing completion points so? You turn up to a race, cross the finish line, boom, one grading point earned! Complete a 3 day stage race? That's 5 points!

As joker77 pointed out, I don't think anyone will ever be happy...

A4 - races are too easy, keep ending in bunch sprints
A3 - the juniors make it too hard
A2 - the A1s make it too hard
A1 - the other A1s make it too hard - or at least, that's how I feel. But I don't go whining about it - I accept that I've gotten to this level through fluke or hard work, and now I have to up my game in order to be competitive. And if I can't hack it, I can always move myself down a grade next season.

ragazzo

buffalo wrote: »

Firstly, the A2s also get handicaps over the A1s in certain races. And secondly - if you've made it to A2, you're able to do battle with the juniors pretty well. Racing should always be challenging. How about we start introducing completion points so? You turn up to a race, cross the finish line, boom, one grading point earned! Complete a 3 day stage race? That's 5 points!

As joker77 pointed out, I don't think anyone will ever be happy...

A4 - races are too easy, keep ending in bunch sprints
A3 - the juniors make it too hard
A2 - the A1s make it too hard
A1 - the other A1s make it too hard - or at least, that's how I feel. But I don't go whining about it - I accept that I've gotten to this level through fluke or hard work, and now I have to up my game in order to be competitive. And if I can't hack it, I can always move myself down a grade next season.

Just commenting on the current situation. Not moaning at all and not unhappy either. Raced at A1 level for years.. No need to explain it to me.

Lots of sensitivity around this issue!

fortis

ragazzo wrote: »

Just commenting on the current situation. Not moaning at all and not unhappy either. Raced at A1 level for years.. No need to explain it to me.

Lots of sensitivity around this issue!

The problem as someone pointed out earlier (razazzo I think) is essentially one of numbers

Participation in cycling racing is low in general I guess (compared to other sports). Maybe that's because it is hard and dangerous! And the reason why we love it! .

But of course bigger numbers bring their own problems (like the cops curtailing things and pre entry etc like is happing in the UK)

Who knows, there is no easy solution. But I think discussions like this help to at least identify the issues and possible solutions (like the discussion on timing and promotion in general).

I don't think the system as it is is "broken" essentially, just needs a little tweaking. My 2 cents!

lennymc

IMHO discussions like this, on forums like these, do very little to help unless people are willing to show up at the various AGMs and voice their concerns there.

buffalo

ragazzo wrote: »

Just commenting on the current situation. Not moaning at all and not unhappy either. Raced at A1 level for years.. No need to explain it to me.

Lots of sensitivity around this issue!

I didn't mean to imply that you were whining, it was a general statement that many who move up a level seem to complain that the racing is now too hard.

michael196

morana wrote: »

A2 is not a category its entry fodder. Aside from Gorey, Charleville and???? whats the point being an a2?

wexford have provided a2 only category race in the past, not massively subscribed.

our ideal is separate A1 to A4 : but the numbers don't show to support segregation.

however the des hanlon had a sizeable a1/a2 field and a sizeable A3 field and a smaller A4 field.

pprendeville

A bit late and maybe unrelated to this thread but there's a cool site that allows you to build a profile for the race elevation which would be nice to see organisers using. Available here.
Note: this might already be available elsewhere but I haven't seen it.

here

buffalo

buffalo wrote: »

I actually think A2 is ideal - racing against the A1s to help bring the legs on, but still being valid for pretty much every stage race out there (including the Rás), where you can give the A3s a kicking.

I thought of another reason over lunch actually - the A2s in A1/2 races will just about always get to race for unplaced A2 prizes. The A3s in A3/Junior races get no such thing.

Peterx

pprendeville wrote: »

A bit late and maybe unrelated to this thread but there's a cool site that allows you to build a profile for the race elevation which would be nice to see organisers using. Available here.
Note: this might already be available elsewhere but I haven't seen it.

here

That is so cool it deserves it's own thread. Only whinging A3's will see it in here apparently

Green&Red

Unbelievably cool, I especially like the Switzerland/Holland toggle

Solobally8

Thanks P, that's so cool!

niceonetom

115km? Somebody make one of the whole thing!

smurphy29

That is supremely elegant. The standard for 'what's the course like in [insert race here] has been set.

pprendeville

The posts Dastardly00 was putting up for Tirreno seem to use similar mapping software. With a bit of know how it would be easy enough to add in a few additional symbols like KOM points, worst gradients, sprint primes etc.

Koobcam

Peterx wrote: »

That is so cool it deserves it's own thread. Only whinging A3's will see it in here apparently

Didn't realise I was riding the Liege-Bastogne-Liege last Sunday

mistermatthew

Guess we know how Dunbar does against the A1's. Relentless today. Took paddy clarke to hold him from riding off on his own,

fortis

As if to Emphasis the general point of this thread!

http://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/teenagers-obrien-and-dunbar-overpower-elite-men-in-winner-takes-all-tour-of-connacht-2/

And people reckon these lads aren't able to ride A1!?

So they crucify the A3 continually instead Two grades below). They might as well put a pro in A3 and let him win whatever race he decides to turn up to for the rest of the year!

Chips Lovell

Nobody said they aren't "able" to ride A1. It's clear they can be competitive. The reasoning behind keeping them in A3 is to avoid them getting burned out by racing in A1 week in, week out. And on the evidence we've seen to date, it's clear that strategy is working.

fortis

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nobody said they aren't "able" to ride A1. It's clear they can be competitive. The reasoning behind keeping them in A3 is to avoid them getting burned out by racing in A1 week in, week out. And on the evidence we've seen to date, it's clear that strategy is working.

I think those lads could ride in the pro ranks week in week out with "burn out"!

Koobcam

Eh..maybe this is a silly question, but could the juniors not just have their own race? Maybe the numbers aren't sufficient?

fortis

Koobcam wrote: »

Eh..maybe this is a silly question, but could the juniors not just have their own race? Maybe the numbers aren't sufficient?

Not enough of them

Regardless, anyone who is capable of beating the A1's (in a stage race no less) shouldn't be riding with A3's. That would seem pretty obvious.

Not all juniors are the same, many of them are hanging on in A3 races and you can justify not burning them out for that reason (as they will develop as they get older). But there has to be exceptions.

ragazzo

fortis wrote: »

Not enough of them

Regardless, anyone who is capable of beating the A1's (in a stage race no less) shouldn't be riding with A3's. That would seem pretty obvious.

Not all juniors are the same, many of them are hanging on in A3 races and you can justify not burning them out for that reason (as they will develop as they get older). But there has to be exceptions.

Not all A1's are the same either. Many A1's spend their time hanging on and out the back too.
There was only a handful of A1/2 riders in Connacht with the majority of the field being A3.
It is probably not the best example to pin your argument on.

Undoubtedly these lads can mix it with A1's but doing this on a regular basis is probably not the best way forward.

They will be doing it again at Easter.
Hopefully someone reminds them that education is also important in the mix. When they are hanging out of some young one in the pub at 20 years of age and racing is a distant memory.... No surely not, that could never happen. The coaches would never let that happen!

Real life always intervenes. Look back over the years and check the long list of super juniors.
Let the lads enjoy the glory while it lasts!

If any of them make the protour sure we will cheer them on Eurosport and tell the missus we used to regularly kick their asses.

lennymc

fortis wrote: »

But there has to be exceptions.

and there are exceptions, like this weekend. Someone in CI made the decision that it would be beneficial for these particular juniors to race at A1 level this weekend. Those same people are also making the decision that they should race at A3 level on other weekends. It's their job to look after the development of the riders - maybe we should leave it to them and trust that they know whats best for the riders, and if that involves them racing with A3s some weekends, and A1s other weekends, so be it.

fortis

lennymc wrote: »

and there are exceptions, like this weekend. Someone in CI made the decision that it would be beneficial for these particular juniors to race at A1 level this weekend. Those same people are also making the decision that they should race at A3 level on other weekends. It's their job to look after the development of the riders - maybe we should leave it to them and trust that they know whats best for the riders, and if that involves them racing with A3s some weekends, and A1s other weekends, so be it.

Well they do make exceptions (on rare occasions) but this race wasn't one of them as the A3's were racing with the A1/2 (so they entered as juniors as normal).

So there was no conscious decision made it was just coincidence. I guess the numbers were small and the organiser couldn't justify two races esp for a stage race. Again a problem with numbers in the A1/2 bunch..

hammerheadjack

There is a CI guiding hand for some juniors but not all.

Some Juniors Ride A4. Guys new to the sport might need a year to harden up the legs. A3 racing is hard.. especially if you are new to the sport and racing for the first time as a 16 year old. Other guys jump straight in at A3 no problem with little experience. Some Juniors are strong enough to race A1/A2 and maybe they should, but limited to the shorter distance races. For example in Balbriggan on Saturday, a short handicapped race (50+K) that I know they would have enjoyed the opportunity to rub shoulders with the big names who were there.
Many of these juniors race handicapped mid-week club leagues during the year over similar distances and have been starting with scratch groups containing A1/A2 and strong A3 since they were U16. Whats the difference here? Its not about winning its about learning and experience.

Chips Lovell

There were juniors racing the Harry Reynolds on Saturday. They're allowed ride handicap races with A3.

wav1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nobody said they aren't "able" to ride A1. It's clear they can be competitive. The reasoning behind keeping them in A3 is to avoid them getting burned out by racing in A1 week in, week out. And on the evidence we've seen to date, it's clear that strategy is working.

Lets not start going round in circles again.The above post is the ''definitive'' answer.

Pawlie

wav1 wrote: »

Lets not start going round in circles again.The above post is the ''definitive'' answer.

Couldnt agree more,this is unreal,Jeremy Kyle would love this thread.......At end of season if the lads that are going around in circles about juniors mopping up points and whether they should or should not race a1 every week are still in A3 go upgrade and that solves everything,I'd sooner see them upgrade rather than burn and destroy some the most talented juniors around.

ragazzo

Pawlie wrote: »

Couldnt agree more,this is unreal,Jeremy Kyle would love this thread.......At end of season if the lads that are going around in circles about juniors mopping up points and whether they should or should not race a1 every week are still in A3 go upgrade and that solves everything,I'd sooner see them upgrade rather than burn and destroy some the most talented juniors around.

The posters who are complaining about Juniors riding A3 races and arguing that they should ride A1 races to bring them on... Do you these same posters race at A3 level?
I doubt very much if they race at all. They certainly have no understanding of nurturing and progression and benefits in the long run. More Oprah than Jeremy!

Pawlie

ragazzo wrote: »

The posters who are complaining about Juniors riding A3 races and arguing that they should ride A1 races to bring them on... Do you these same posters race at A3 level?
I doubt very much if they race at all. They certainly have no understanding of nurturing and progression and benefits in the long run. More Oprah than Jeremy!

Well I for one have had some good ding dongs with them at front a3 bunch,and it is unreal,the constant attacking and drilling it up climbs etc,even managed to get 9 points last year after getting upgraded in April and I can tell yea it brought me on leaps.......
Being competitive riding with them will only help lads when they do earn the points for upgrade,
Maybe more Jerry Springer

ht9zni1gs28crp

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There were juniors racing the Harry Reynolds on Saturday. They're allowed ride handicap races with A3.

I know, I felt the pain of trying to hang with those pesky youngsters! 3min gap decimated in two laps

buffalo

Amos Eager Headboard wrote: »

I know, I felt the pain of trying to hang with those pesky youngsters! 3min gap decimated in two laps

They cut 18 seconds off it? Sure that's not much at all. :pac:

</pointless pedantry>