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Football ranking table

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    The same "championship" weighting is applied to both the Sam Maguire and Tailteann cup competitions. Hard to justify doing it differently, especially at this early stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Not sure which years you are referring to here? Or competition?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    I'm only referring to the changes in the last week, Round 4 of the league. This is basically the same point made as Blackjack in post #1192.

    I think the whole thing is great, this is only a point of detail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    You might have been away for a while (and you might want to sit down before finishing this sentence) but Dublin are no longer in Div 1 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    I was hoping that was the case 😎


    Kerry 106.5 vs Armagh 98.8, Kerry get 3 extra rating points for home advantage, so it becomes Kerry 109.5 vs Armagh 98.8 = rating difference of 11.1

    Mayo 102.3 vs Tyrone 91.2, Mayo get 3 extra rating points for home advantage, so it becomes Mayo 105.3 vs Tyrone 91.2 = rating difference of 14.1

    Rating exchange (if favourite wins) =

     1-(Rating_difference/15)*bonus_score-weight*competition_weight


    Bonus score weight is 1.5 for a victory of 5 points or more

    Competition weight is 1.5 for the league, 3 for the championship


    For Kerry vs Armagh = 1-(11.1/15) = 0.26*1*1.5 = 0.39 rating points exchanged

    For Mayo vs Tyrone = 1-(14.1/15) = 0.06*1.5*1.5 = 0.135 rating points exchanged


    If the favorite loses, the formula becomes:

    1+(Rating_difference/15)*bonus_score-weight*competition_weight

    Post edited by laoisman11 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Excuse the quick and dirty graph below, but some interesting trends here, especially over the last 10 years.

    The first 10 years, the system is getting set up and teams were finding their level (they all started with 80 rating points).

    From 1940-2010, the distribution of the rating points among teams was pretty constant, apart from a narrowing in the early 70s

    Between 2010-2015, the gap between the top and bottom teams widened in an almost linear fashion before more or less plateauing in the last 5 years - a potential reason for this is that I changed the league weighting from 1 to 1.5 in 2009

    (Not sure at what point you took your data from in 2009 @crusd, as there is a difference in our standard deviations, but I took the end of year data)





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    "Bonus score weight is 1.5 for a victory of 5 points or more"

    I suppose that my point is that you could have a formula 0.3*score difference or some such.

    This would give

    For Kerry vs Armagh = 1-(11.1/15) = 0.26*1*0.3 = 0.08 rating points exchanged (rounded)

    For Mayo vs Tyrone = 1-(14.1/15) = 0.06*1.5*3 = 0.27 rating points exchanged

    I suppose the point of this is that a one point win at home is a modest enough achievement compared to a 10 point win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭crusd


    I just took the ratings from the first table on the thread and compared to the ratings from the last.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    I hear what you are saying - yes, it is possible that fine-tuning the bonus score weight might give more precise values for exchange of rating points. We are where we are today though, no ranking system is perfect (nor ever will be).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output below, things are heating up now with the finishing line coming into sight:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Not too many shocks in the round 5 games, apart from wins for Tyrone, Louth (although a lot of people in the know saw that coming) and Meath not winning. Tyrone (+2.8 points) and Cork (+2.4 points) were the big winners.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output for this weekend's games........as we come towards the end of the league, some teams will have less to play for (no opportunity for promotion, no risk of relegation), so prediction of some games becomes a lottery.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Updated ranking table after NFL round 6.

    • Antrim were the big winners with a relegation-saving victory over Cavan (who were more or less promoted anyway, but that's not taking away from a fine victory) - Antrim gained 3 rating points for this exploit
    • Tyrone took 2.58 rating points from Monaghan and look to join the big boys at the top table and relative safety in Division 1
    • Fermanagh were the only other team to take more than 2 rating points in their hunt for promotion gathers pace




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction output for this weekend's games below. Be very wary where teams have nothing to play for (Mayo, Derry, Clare, Limerick, Cavan, Tipp & Longford) or where they have little to play for - i.e. they are already safe from relegation and no chance of promotion (3, 2 and 4 teams in Divs 2, 3 and 4, respectively).




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Ranking table update following the final round of league games:

    • Monaghan were the big big winners, not only in escaping relegation, but also in gaining 4.5 rating points following a bonus-point, away win over high-flyers Mayo
    • Down had a surprisingly big win over Offaly, gaining them 2.65 rating points, but events elsewhere meant that they were not to be promoted
    • And that event was Fermanagh’s win over an already promoted Cavan, 2.52 rating points exchanged in that game, which might be swapped again after the final next weekend
    • Final word to Galway, whose victory over Kerry, combined with Mayo’s loss to Monaghan, means that Galway occupy no. 1 spot for the first time since July 2003!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Of course it all smooths out over time, but Mayo not being motivated to win the last round leads to Galway's elevation on the table and Armagh's relegation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Predicition model output for the league finals below, they are all going to be tight games if this is to be believed. Difficult to believe that championship is only around the corner!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Always_Running


    And Roscommon who finished 3rd in Div 1 drop out of the top 8 because Monaghan beat that non motivated Mayo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Final ranking table after the 2022 NFL:

    • Kerry regain number one spot, while Mayo pip Galway for 3rd spot
    • Dublin (they haven't gone away) rise to 2nd place, where they have not been since Sept 2021
    • Sligo are up to their highest ranking since January 2019 after a good win in the Div 4 final




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    How has your team fared during the league? Who were the movers and shakers? And what imact (if any) will it have on the championship......

    Big winners

    • Louth gained 8 rating points and moved up 5 ranking places after a more-than-solid season in Division 2
    • Tyrone were not far behind, they gained 7.5 rating points and climbed 4 ranking places
    • Every 2nd year, Roscommon seem to have a good league - this year, they gained 5.5 rating points and hopped 3 ranking places
    • Honorable mentions to Fermanagh and Sligo who increased their worth by 5.2 and 5 rating points, respectively

    Big losers

    • The All-Ireland champions normally suffer big if they have a loss in the league, and Kerry accumulated 4 of them, losing 10.3 rating points in the process but retaining no.1 place
    • Westmeath dropped 6.1 rating points and 4 ranking places after a poor Division 3 campaign (despite having the best scoring difference across all teams)
    • Clare fell 3 ranking places and lost 5.1 rating points following a league campaign which culminated in relagation from Division 2 after 7 years
    • Honoroble mentions to Armagh and Donegal, who lost 4.7 and 4 rating points, respectively




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    First round of games in this year's SFC, with hardly a breather since the league has finished.

    I haven't done the in-depth previews as there are potentially too many games at this early stage to make it interesting, but if people want, I can do them from next weekend on.

    Prediction model output:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Cavan_King


    Any updated table after the games at the weekend?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,094 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Westmeath had the best scoring difference because they beat Antrim by 31 points. In the next round Antrim beat Cavan. Antrim were only the third worst in Division 3 on scoring difference. Worst overall was Limerick -68, with a (dis)honourable mention for Donegal -41.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Donegal had a -41 score difference, yet they are -4 while Armagh with score difference -3 and who won one game more than Donegal are -4.7.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,094 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Scoring difference doesn't come into it, just wins and losses. So that would explain Donegal and Armagh. I only remarked on it because Laoisman had a note in his League summary. Another mighty outlier was Cork 6-18, Limerick 0-12. But again irrelevant to the table.

    • Westmeath dropped 6.1 rating points and 4 ranking places after a poor Division 3 campaign (despite having the best scoring difference across all teams)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    What an exciting opening round to the 2023 SFC! I certainly wasn't expecting that many shocks (and Waterford and Longford were not far off creating other shocks, if the reports I read are to be believed).

    • Roscommon were the big winners, exchaning 5.1 rating points (and 4 ranking places) with Mayo
    • Clare took 3.5 rating points from Cork, and now lead them in the rankings
    • There were gains, albeit of smaller magnitude, for Laois, Offaly, New York, Wicklow and Tipperary
    • No rating points were exchanged in the Armagh-Antrim nor Sligo-London games





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    Last time Roscommon was in the top 5 in these rankings?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    I was thinking that someone was going to ask that........

    Would you believe that it was in 2019, just after they beat the reigning Division 1 league champions Mayo, in Castlebar!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Only 2 games to look forward to this weekend:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,939 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Is this the first time New York have ever gained points? I know they've regularly stayed off the bottom by other teams sinking lower.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    First points gained in the championship, but they had some wins in the league in the 60's, they must have been some sort of 'reward' game or something for the league champions to go over and play them so we can only imagine how serious the games were for the visiting parties.........they beat Galway on 3 occassions (in 65 and twice in 67 - God knows how those were organised).

    They got up to 73 rating points at one stage, which brought them to 21st in the rankings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,767 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Updated ranking table below following last weekend's games:

    • A sensational win for Monaghan results in a gain of 4.2 rating points and effectively swapping positions with Tyrone in the ranking table
    • No rating points exchanged in the Derry vs Fermanagh game due to the gulf in rating points between the sides




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭crusd


    The wild swing in rankings caused by one-off results the last two weekends suggests the model may need tweaking



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭tanko


    I don’t think so, teams will move up and down but you need to wait until the end of the Championships, it is very accurate then imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    I think the increased number of games (especially given a lot of them will be against teams of relatively similar levels given the split between Sam an Tailteann) should improve the post season standings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭tanko


    Do you not think it gave a fair reflection of the standings at the end of last season, no system is going to be perfect.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output for the 10 games this weekend - for some reason, the full PDF output wouldn't run properly - hopefully will have some time in the next few weeks to correct this.


    Post edited by laoisman11 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,094 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Should be Limerick v Clare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Feck, I had pre-filled my Excel file with the teams before last weekend's games, and missed this one (but caught the Roscommon and New York ones!). Thanks!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    With 10 games on the menu last weekend, there was sure to be major movement in the ranking table:

    • Down gained 3 places in the rankings and took 4.2 rating points from Donegal, dropping Donegal to their lowest rank since February 2011
    • Offaly's win over Meath gained them 3.8 rating points, relegating Meath to the Tailteann Cup, and to 19th place, their lowest since June '18
    • The other big winner was Galway, who regain no. 1 place in the table after a fine win over Roscommon
    • Final mention to Clare, who moved to 10th place, their highest since March 2017




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Not sure if it has been reported elsewhere, but Laois's 27-point margin of defeat to Dublin is their largest ever championship defeat, followed by their 2020 championship defeat to Dublin by 22 points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    It isn't tat long since Laois were a solid Div 2 team, somewhere around where Louth are now. They have declined markedly.

    Many people expected Monaghan to fall back, but it is Donegal that are in decline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    It feels like feast or famine with these alternating weekends of game overload/little to look forward to......only 4 games this weekend. The prediction model output is below.

    I will try to attach the full output as a HTML file in a seperate post, hopefully it will work!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Managed to get a PDF file in the end, hopefully this makes for easier viewing compared to the HTML file.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    • A huge win for Derry moves them up to 2nd place, and if they can take Armagh in the Ulster final, they look likely to top the ranking table!
    • Louth's extra-time win over Offaly moves them up to 10th, their highest since June 2013
    • Armagh had a small gain following a big win over Down
    • No rating points were exchanged after the Dublin-Kildare game





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 997 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Another famine weekend with only 2 games, and going by the prediction model, there won't be much intrigue - Galway and Kerry are projected to win big. Nevertheless, on looking at the long-term trends (PDF attached), both Sligo and Clare have a habit of making things sticky for Galway and Kerry, respectively, so these finals may remain competitive for a longer stretch than expected.





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